334 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

Nerf CTFs and JM6s because they are the king of the heavies. Make these 2 less effective in turn rate as the proposed HGN suggestion posted because in the top competitive matches, no one uses the DRG, CPLT, ON1, and QKD.

[Kinilan]

Highlanders have an asymmetrical hardpoint distribution. The ballistics and lasers are all on right side. You blow that right side, which is pretty easy at any range considering how board they are, and almost all their firepower is gone. They aren't much faster than an Atlas and if you want jump jets you won't get anywhere near the same level of cooling you would in an Atlas with a comparable weapon loadout. Highlanders have more vertical mobility but they aren't much faster than an Atlas. They make an OK poptart but they aren't the best at anything let alone THE best.

[CrashieJ]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 October 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

These are Better!

I was always a fan of these http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vibrokatana
a bit cleaner in cutting...

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think a damage mechanism that hurts Assault/Heavy leg internal structure upon landing from a high drop would benefit this game. When you pop up and fail to buffer your fall, you're not going to harm the armor on your legs... you're going to harm the structural components.

Lights/Mediums should be fairly resistant to fall damage (as they are now), and Heavy/Assault Legs should be made much more susceptible to fall damage. Remember folks: Jump Jets aren't meant to launch you straight-up and then back down again; they are meant to lift you to upper platforms/ledges, or to traverse distances with a mild arc.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 October 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Roland]

Kinilan, on 19 October 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Highlanders have an asymmetrical hardpoint distribution. The ballistics and lasers are all on right side. You blow that right side, which is pretty easy at any range considering how board they are, and almost all their firepower is gone. They aren't much faster than an Atlas and if you want jump jets you won't get anywhere near the same level of cooling you would in an Atlas with a comparable weapon loadout. Highlanders have more vertical mobility but they aren't much faster than an Atlas. They make an OK poptart but they aren't the best at anything let alone THE best.

You don't seem to grasp the real agility bonus conveyed by jump jets in this case.

It is not simply being able to jump up, but rather the ability to jump and turn in mid air which gives Highlanders a huge ability buff.

[Krivvan]

Roland, on 19 October 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

You don't seem to grasp the real agility bonus conveyed by jump jets in this case.

It is not simply being able to jump up, but rather the ability to jump and turn in mid air which gives Highlanders a huge ability buff.

Not too many people even know about the agility conferred by jump jets to light mechs. It's another reason why the highlander specifically isn't complained about, but rather the weapons it uses.

[Corvus Antaka]

This is a jumpjet design issue, not a highlander issue.

[PEEFsmash]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 19 October 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

This is a jumpjet design issue, not a highlander issue.

This, however, is not a problem of all mechs with JJs. Lights, Mediums, and even the Quickdraw have JJs that function largely the same way, but on these mechs JJs are not an issue. They are an issue because of how quickly, cheaply, and easily they propel the Highlander (and perhaps also the CTF and the Victor). Perhaps a better way to phrase your point (and I would agree with it in this case) is that there is a design issue with JJs on mechs 70 tons and over, where the JJ too cheaply affords too much of a gamebreaking mobility advantage on those big chassis.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 October 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Run a Highlander with Jump Jets for a while, then run that same Highlander WITHOUT Jump Jets, and then come talk to me.

[Kinilan]

Roland, on 19 October 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

You don't seem to grasp the real agility bonus conveyed by jump jets in this case.

It is not simply being able to jump up, but rather the ability to jump and turn in mid air which gives Highlanders a huge ability buff.

I'm well aware of the use and utility of the the jump and spin. I just don't think the ability to do so makes a mech the best ever and it certainly doesn't outweigh the poor hardpoint positioning on a Highlander.

You take 2-6 tons worth of JJ to jump and spin in a Highlander. I'll take an Atlas with 5 extra tons +2-6 free tonnage not used on JJ and just reverse and turn for the same results with more firepower.

[PEEFsmash]

Odins Fist, on 19 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Run a Highlander with Jump Jets for a while, then run that same Highlander WITHOUT Jump Jets, and then come talk to me.

Why would anyone run a Highlander with JJs? Of course it is the JJ+very well hitboxed and hardpointed 90 ton mech combination that causes the problem...but the Highlander just is that combination.

Kinilan, on 19 October 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

poor hardpoint positioning on a Highlander.

You can't be serious. The Highlander has incredibly well positioned hardpoints. The energy hardpoints are fantastically positioned up high on the shoulder, and the arm, though fairly low, is quite high as far as arms go, and the fact that it is an arm allows more range of motion to fight things up close. The fact that they are all on the same side is the biggest advantage (what the unaware see as a disadvantage). Having all of your weapons on one side means that you can peek>shoot while exposing only a tiny bit of your body...probably only having to expose a locust-sized amount of actual body in order to alpha everything. If you unpredictably choose new places to pop from, this lets you get away with exposing almost nothing.

I don't have a problem with the jumpsniping, fine, let them be good at that. Just don't let them be so incredibly good at EVERYTHING including having the torso twist and turn-rate speeds high enough to 1v1 every possible harasser and put them to bed in 5 seconds without a worry. Every mech needs serious weaknesses that other mechs have to protect (aka, ROLE WARFARE) and HGNs just don't have real weaknesses.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 October 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Odins Fist]

PEEFsmash, on 19 October 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Why would anyone run a Highlander with JJs? Of course it is the JJ+very well hitboxed and hardpointed 90 ton mech combination that causes the problem...but the Highlander just is that combination.

EXACTLY

If the highlander didn't have Jump Jets, it wouldn't be anywhere near the Mech people THINK it is.

I ran them, but I didn't care for them... Too slow for me, but that's personal likes/dislikes.

Also a lot of people don't understand the way higher tier players set their Armor up with the Highlander.

Just get behind one of them, and their Aura of awesome bites the dust.

Edited by Odins Fist, 19 October 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

It's funny with the Highlanders, because I know them only from two situations:

1) Them killing me, but since those are mostly long-range (gauss, lrms), I don't see them.

2.) I see 'em, I kill 'em.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Roland, on 19 October 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

I never understand folks who suggest that they only play for fun, and so don't want things to be balanced.

If you're trying to imply I am saying I don't want balance, you're not even remotely understanding the first three points I posted.

Here's the question posted:

There Is Almost Universal Agreement Among The Top Players That Highlanders Are The Best Mech By A Mile, Where Are The Calls For Nerfs?


Because the general population doesn't necessarily agree that HGN's are the best Mech by a mile. Your top 1% driven consensus isn't perceived by the population. For such an easy to use, OP Mech, people aren't driving it like crazy like they did the Streak/SplatCats, or the 3D or whatever to increase their precious KDR's and e-Peens as we've seen in the past.

When something in this game (any PvP game) is glaringly OP, people flock to it in droves to inflate their self-esteem or satiate their "gotta win" urges. That's no longer the case with the HGN, hence no outcry in general.

If someone thinks I'm arguing against a nerf or that HGN's are OP, I've not even addressed that part of the issue. PGI doesn't give a **** about our opinions anyway, so why waste the energy on it.

Just the last few games for me....note 1 x HGN in the matches, but two STK, at least three DDC and 4 or more VTR in addition to the million or so FOTM BLR's (if there's no reason to play anything else, why are they I'd ask....and pretty glaringly so):







The general public doesn't feel they are OP or at least not game-breakingly so, therefor no outcry. Simple enough?

Edited by Lukoi, 19 October 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Come on stop trying to nerf everything. I get so sick of this. The Highlander is a good mech but does not unbalance the game. Jump jets are a very good feature on a mech but they do not unbalance the game. I would much rather PGI work on making under used mechs better like the Awsome.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 19 October 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

Lukoi, on 19 October 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

If you're trying to imply I am saying I don't want balance, you're not even remotely understanding the first three points I posted.

Here's the question posted:

There Is Almost Universal Agreement Among The Top Players That Highlanders Are The Best Mech By A Mile, Where Are The Calls For Nerfs?


Because the general population doesn't necessarily agree that HGN's are the best Mech by a mile. Your top 1% driven consensus isn't perceived by the population. For such an easy to use, OP Mech, people aren't driving it like crazy like they did the Streak/SplatCats, or the 3D or whatever to increase their precious KDR's and e-Peens as we've seen in the past.

When something in this game (any PvP game) is glaringly OP, people flock to it in droves to inflate their self-esteem or satiate their "gotta win" urges. That's no longer the case with the HGN, hence no outcry in general.

If someone thinks I'm arguing against a nerf or that HGN's are OP, I've not even addressed that part of the issue. PGI doesn't give a **** about our opinions anyway, so why waste the energy on it.

Just the last few games for me....note 1 x HGN in the matches, but two STK, at least three DDC and 4 or more VTR in addition to the million or so FOTM BLR's (if there's no reason to play anything else, why are they I'd ask....and pretty glaringly so):

The general public doesn't feel they are OP or at least not game-breakingly so, therefor no outcry. Simple enough?

Since you haven't gotten the point as we try to beat around the bush, I'm not afraid to put it plainly.

Your personal experience of what happens in-game doesn't matter because you aren't playing at the highest levels, and the highest levels are where these imbalances show themselves. Who cares if mid-level players have caught on or not? A few screenshots with the names blotted out means nothing, especially when everyone is leveling their phoenix mechs. If you look at the compositions of top units, the idea is to cram as many Highlanders, Victors, and CTFs in as possible, and then make up all the weight by sticking in whatever lights you can. That is not how the game should be, but thats how it is. What happens at mid-Elo pug matches isn't of balance concern.

My litmus test for whether you play in high Elo or not. Fill in the blank:

"LORD ______________
ggclose"

or

"__________-__________ Mechworks _____ #1"

If you can't fill in those gaps, you aren't playing at high Elo, and every high Elo player who has played in the last month knows exactly what goes in there. It annoys me just as much that they do that at the beginning of games, but it serves as a good test =]

PS: Don't spoil it.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 October 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Odins Fist, on 19 October 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

EXACTLY

If the highlander didn't have Jump Jets, it wouldn't be anywhere near the Mech people THINK it is.

I ran them, but I didn't care for them... Too slow for me, but that's personal likes/dislikes.

Also a lot of people don't understand the way higher tier players set their Armor up with the Highlander.

Just get behind one of them, and their Aura of awesome bites the dust.

You're not going to get behind good players, which is precisely why they front load it. This is a direct consequence of how quickly assault mechs can turn around.

Lets say we're on Frozen City, and I take Jenner alley alllll the way around to their base. Assuming they don't see me which is a rarity in of itself versus good teams, I'm only going to have enough time to do one alpha strike in the back. The Jenner-F, with 6/ML and the biggest precise alpha out of the lights, is only going to do 29/25/22 damage to internals. Who cares? That's pointless. And then I'm going to die because I made a ridiculously stupid decision to go deep into enemy territory where they can respond quickly and effectively. Pop 1 alpha strike i'm dead ggclose.

[Odins Fist]

Adiuvo, on 19 October 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

You're not going to get behind good players,

I'm not huh..??? Ok then

[PictishWolf]

I don't really have a problem with Highlanders. They kill me sometimes but I kill them, too. Spiders, on the other hand... On multiple occasions, I've hit a stationary Spider cleanly in the rear center torso with an alpha of dual gauss and 4 MLs and had it just turn yellow when it should have been history. In motion is even worse.

[Lukoi Banacek]

If you want to complain about the HGN, then do so. But don't ask a question you don't want to hear the answer to in "beating around the bush."

I run into you, Blastman and more than enough of the "high Elo" players that it doesn't matter one way or the other. That wasn't the title of your thread or the point I addressed.

You fail to accept one simple fact ....the inequities of this game are not cared about at the highest level because the highest level players make up too small of a group that has minimal impact on the game's bottom line. It's the middle tier and casual players who drive PGI's decisions on balance. Until something is suddenly askew at that point, they aren't going to spend time, resources, manhours on addressing it. Grow up and join the real world, where the bottom line, not a small group of people's enjoyment of the game is what drives a business.

Until the highest level Elo players who are in crisis mode about the boredom they face in these mythical 12-HGN matches, are whales that are filling PGI's coffers, they are immaterial. I know it hurts the ego to think one's skill at pixel-management isn't rewarded, but thems the facts.

3PV...thank casuals. Coolant flush, consumables...thank casuals. ECM, LRM's...thank casuals. The bulk of the demographic paying the bills, gets to influence things more than the self-aggrandizing elite Peef, that's the simple, plain truth and its the same in every PvP I've ever played. It's why the diehards always complain about games being "watered down" or "dumbed down" and how they can't find decent competition etc.

Just revel in the fact that you're an elite player and accept the fact that PGI is going to deal with the middle tiers before they sweat the top tiers. Even their little fact finding missions (recruiting high Elo players) to weigh in on issues still gets balanced out vice the metrics they obtain from thousands (if not millions of games) and those game metrics are driven by.....much lower Elo level pilots.