334 replies to this topic

[PEEFsmash]

mwhighlander, on 19 October 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Counter Point:

If a Misery or Atlas could mount Jump Jets, they would be just as good.

A victor doesn't have the tonnage to do similar loadouts with a Standard Engine/ enough armor values.

I don't think this is a counterpoint to my view. A Stalker with JJs would be the best mech in the game, but it doesn't have JJs. The idea that I am proposing is that the JJs (combined with the other positive attributes) allow the Highlander to singlehandedly deal with any possible situation as well or better than every other mech in the game. Because of this, they should be limited in their turn or torso twist speed.

[Kitane]

Assaults (and to lesser extend heavies) rule because they are agile enough to bring their massive firepower on the target so quickly that the mobility advantage of lighter classes just doesn't make up for it.

Change all pilot skills unlocks from

default mech attribute + % bonus

to

default mech attribute - % penalty

where the penalty with elite unlocks is zero.

Highlander would still be the "most capable" assault, but assaults would suffer the most from the lack of agility unlocks.

[Roughneck45]

Jump jet versatility is still the issue, HGN's just happen to be the biggest mech that can take them.

I'm not really sure how to handle it either. Removing the ability to fire while in the air would stop it but that would be a pretty extreme change.

If only PPC's were given the charge time and not the gauss...

[Joseph Mallan]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Jump jet versatility is still the issue, HGN's just happen to be the biggest mech that can take them.

I'm not really sure how to handle it either. Removing the ability to fire while in the air would stop it but that would be a pretty extreme change.

If only PPC's were given the charge time and not the gauss...

Well in the CBT universe Firing from a jump is next to impossible and on TT it does not happen.

[Roland]

Lukoi, on 19 October 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

I don't see that there is a need to not allow for a "best" in class of anything. Simply how life is. So, why nerf HGN's exactly? Are they somehow OP? Are they somehow unbalancing the game?

There are plenty of other Mechs played in 12mans, especially where tonnage limits/weight class bracketing occurs and CW is likely to include some of that, so really, what's the issue?

If you have one thing which is clearly best, then why have the other options?

[Avalios]

It's the heaviest jumping mech, and with JJ sniping still top of the meta of course it's the best. Seems your problem is JJs not the mech itself. Nerf the highlander and everyone will just run victors. Nerf the victor and everyone will hop back into their 3Ds.

[PEEFsmash]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 October 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Well in the CBT universe Firing from a jump is next to impossible and on TT it does not happen.

I am not suggesting any nerf of that sort. Keep in mind that in the MW4 campaign, one of your missions was to combat a squad of poptarting Uziels. I'm fine with that mechanic. The issue is that in a game that is supposed to be based on 12 man role warfare with each mech covering the weakness of another mech, you can't have a one-size-fits-all supermech that can literally handle any situation thrown at it at least as well, but typically much better than, any other mech in the game.

@ Avalios: Victors might be the next-best-mech as well as CTFs, but CTFs and Victors have some disadvantages. They have less armor, cannot max standard engine + run the best builds. A team of nothing but CTFs and Victors would have to run XLs (or very slow standards) and could be rolled over by brawlers, and even dealt with somewhat well by Stalkers, etc.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 October 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PEEFsmash, on 19 October 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I am not suggesting any nerf of that sort. Keep in mind that in the MW4 campaign, one of your missions was to combat a squad of poptarting Uziels. I'm fine with that mechanic. The issue is that in a game that is supposed to be based on 12 man role warfare with each mech covering the weakness of another mech, you can't have a one-size-fits-all supermech that can literally handle any situation thrown at it at least as well, but typically much better than, any other mech in the game.

@ Avalios: Victors might be the next-best-mech as well as CTFs, but CTFs and Victors have some disadvantages. They have less armor, cannot max standard engine + run the best builds. A team of nothing but CTFs and Victors would have to run XLs (or very slow standards) and could be rolled over by brawlers, and even dealt with somewhat well by Stalkers, etc.

I don't know if I see it your way PEEF, but I am not wholly disagreeing either.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Roland, on 19 October 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

If you have one thing which is clearly best, then why have the other options?

First off, as evidenced by the multitude of different mechs ingame, people clearly play this to have fun. So perhaps they don't all agree that the HGN is best. Secondly, perhaps its only best in the hands of the self-annointed masters and not so godlike in the hands of the demographic driving this game (ala PGI), the more casual fans. Thirdly, tonnage and weight limits prevent even the master class from using nothing but HGN's in most competitive play.

So, if the call to nerf HGN's specifically is because the ultra-talented are suffering from boredom in 12mans full of HGN's, I'd suggest they try a little variety, as it's the spice of life. This mysterious, unanimous cabal of HGN-praisers you claim exists doesn't represent even the hardcore player base, let alone the casual player base and that's why there's no general outcry about the HGN unlike the spider. It's an issue of perception and perception to the mob is often reality.

I think the HGN is a highly effective Mech, but I do sooo much better in a Victor it's not even funny. People enjoy and excel in different chassis. The uber-1% aren't driving this game (ala PGI) and probably shouldn't be. I doubt they provide nearly the funds that other demographics do, so while they shouldn't be discounted, neither should they specifically be catered to.

[Krivvan]

I do find it funny that people normally accuse you, Peef, of being in teams that only want to run HGN-733Cs and etc. So you're not really arguing for a nerf for your own benefit like a lot of people would want to accuse nerf threads of.

They're definitely the best Assault by far for that role, so yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing them nerfed just a bit to give some variety to the kinds of mechs you can run for that role.

[Murphy7]

Rather than a Highlander specific nerf, I would rather that the jump jet classification and number mounted count for more.

I would propose two changes regarding jump jets.

First that the light/medium class JJ offers more maneuverability per jet than the heavy class, which in turn offers more per jet than the assault class.

Second, that total maneuverability conferred to a chassis by JJ is predicated on the full complement, and reduced complements of JJ gives you reduced jumping maneuverability on a linear scale.


Our current problems will be exacerbated by any new jump chassis that is later introduced, so fix the jet system.

The weight of assault JJ isn't as much of a balancing factor when you get near full value for only mounting one or two. Differentiating the classes of JJ retains primary mobility with light and medium classes, which may help give them more of a niche. 55tonners were good in TT because they were the best 5/8/5 platform, not the best 5/8 platform.

Just my $0.02

[Krivvan]

Lukoi, on 19 October 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

First off, as evidenced by the multitude of different mechs ingame, people clearly play this to have fun. So perhaps they don't all agree that the HGN is best. Secondly, perhaps its only best in the hands of the self-annointed masters and not so godlike in the hands of the demographic driving this game (ala PGI), the more casual fans. Thirdly, tonnage and weight limits prevent even the master class from using nothing but HGN's in most competitive play.

So, if the call to nerf HGN's specifically is because the ultra-talented are suffering from boredom in 12mans full of HGN's, I'd suggest they try a little variety, as it's the spice of life. This mysterious, unanimous cabal of HGN-praisers you claim exists doesn't represent even the hardcore player base, let alone the casual player base and that's why there's no general outcry about the HGN unlike the spider. It's an issue of perception and perception to the mob is often reality.

I think the HGN is a highly effective Mech, but I do sooo much better in a Victor it's not even funny. People enjoy and excel in different chassis. The uber-1% aren't driving this game (ala PGI) and probably shouldn't be. I doubt they provide nearly the funds that other demographics do, so while they shouldn't be discounted, neither should they specifically be catered to.

HGN-733Cs are common even in PUG play. The group of 4 HGN-733Cs on the team are what always elicit reactions of "ACs are OP" and etc.

[PEEFsmash]

Murphy7, on 19 October 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Rather than a Highlander specific nerf, I would rather that the jump jet classification and number mounted count for more.

I would propose two changes regarding jump jets.

First that the light/medium class JJ offers more maneuverability per jet than the heavy class, which in turn offers more per jet than the assault class.

Second, that total maneuverability conferred to a chassis by JJ is predicated on the full complement, and reduced complements of JJ gives you reduced jumping maneuverability on a linear scale.


Our current problems will be exacerbated by any new jump chassis that is later introduced, so fix the jet system.

The weight of assault JJ isn't as much of a balancing factor when you get near full value for only mounting one or two. Differentiating the classes of JJ retains primary mobility with light and medium classes, which may help give them more of a niche. 55tonners were good in TT because they were the best 5/8/5 platform, not the best 5/8 platform.

Just my $0.02

Yeah, if JJs on assaults costed 8 tons, the weight might actually count for something. I would be in support of a nerf to Heavy and Assault JJs, as long as lights and mediums were not needlessly harmed in the process. Many Assault/Heavy nerfs end up battering mediums and lights, and that can't be allowed to happen.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 19 October 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[YueFei]

Lukoi, on 19 October 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

First off, as evidenced by the multitude of different mechs ingame, people clearly play this to have fun. So perhaps they don't all agree that the HGN is best. Secondly, perhaps its only best in the hands of the self-annointed masters and not so godlike in the hands of the demographic driving this game (ala PGI), the more casual fans. Thirdly, tonnage and weight limits prevent even the master class from using nothing but HGN's in most competitive play.

So, if the call to nerf HGN's specifically is because the ultra-talented are suffering from boredom in 12mans full of HGN's, I'd suggest they try a little variety, as it's the spice of life. This mysterious, unanimous cabal of HGN-praisers you claim exists doesn't represent even the hardcore player base, let alone the casual player base and that's why there's no general outcry about the HGN unlike the spider. It's an issue of perception and perception to the mob is often reality.

I think the HGN is a highly effective Mech, but I do sooo much better in a Victor it's not even funny. People enjoy and excel in different chassis. The uber-1% aren't driving this game (ala PGI) and probably shouldn't be. I doubt they provide nearly the funds that other demographics do, so while they shouldn't be discounted, neither should they specifically be catered to.

Do you watch American Gridiron Football at all? Do you notice the wide variety of body sizes and shapes of the players at different positions on the field? Do you realize that this happened organically, and was not mandated by League-wide rules of "team weight limits", and instead it evolved that way because, as PEEF said, every player had strengths but ALSO had huge weaknesses that had to be covered by his teammates? Everyone on the American football field has a ROLE to play, and we were also promised proper role warfare for this game, but we really don't have it.

You try being a football coach, and stack your whole team with nothing but 300+ pound linemen-type of players. You will get ROLLED hard trying to cover the other team's receivers, backs, and tight ends with your fatties. They'll score a touchdown on you every single time they touch the football. And when you get the ball on offense, you have no receiving threat to stretch the field, and opposing defensive players will have to speed to go AROUND your blocks and catch your ball carrier from behind in the backfield.

And unlike some people who clamor for collisions in this game because they think the bigger body always knocks down the smaller one, if you understand proper pursuit angles and tackling technique, those smaller and faster defensive players WILL bring down your fat-*** ball carrier.

If MWO were a well-designed game, you'd see the same variety of mech weights on a team WITHOUT the need to resort to weight limits. You could have NO weight limits at all, and if the game was well designed, a team with nothing but Assault mechs would lose to a team with a balance of all weight classes.

Let me illustrate further: imagine the American football field was only 30 feet wide, instead of 160 feet wide. You WOULD end up with a stupid sport with nothing but 300+ pound linemen types, simply because the field would be too damn small and too crowded for the faster players to use their agility and speed. You'd end up with a poorly-designed sport with no thinking or depth.

Edited by YueFei, 19 October 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Krivvan, on 19 October 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

HGN-733Cs are common even in PUG play. The group of 4 HGN-733Cs on the team are what always elicit reactions of "ACs are OP" and etc.

I'd say your anecdotal pool of examples doesn't outweigh mine. HGN's are common, but so are Atlas, VTR, STK and whatever FOTM has hit the door recently (for example BH, BLR due to sales) and my SS's of games backup that argument. (yes, I take screenies for a variety of reasons).

Until PGI gets off its *** and starts posting stats like BF3 or other games where you can see aggregate #'s these arguments are all based on limited personal perceptions. Mine are clearly different than yours if you're arguing that HGN's are more common than anything else in PuGs and doesn't btw counter any of my previous commentary as to why HGN's may or may not see a nerf or why there's not some incredible cry and hue on the forums about how they are wrecking -- which was actually what my comments were referring to.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Highlanders are not the cause for the imbalance, but more a result of a amalgamation of many unbalanced features within MWO.
nerfing this mech specificaly will do little, specialy considering the types of nerfs one could do to it wihtout changing hardpoints and other 'major' aspects of the mech. A reduced turn rate would do little in the long run.

I am not going to get into every single linked inbalance within the game to explain my point or even try to explain the solution, becouse to be frank, it will fall on PGI's deaf ears, and half the people reading it wont understand, and half of the rest will find some way of arguing simply becouse it negativly affects their particular mech they use or type of gameplay/role they choose to play.

[Lukoi Banacek]

YueFei, on 19 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Do you watch American Gridiron Football at all? Do you notice the wide variety of body sizes and shapes of the players at different positions on the field? Do you realize that this happened organically, and was not mandated by League-wide rules of "team weight limits", and instead it evolved that way because, as PEEF said, every player had strengths but ALSO had huge weaknesses that had to be covered by his teammates? Everyone on the American football field has a ROLE to play, and we were also promised proper role warfare for this game, but we really don't have it.

You try being a football coach, and stack your whole team with nothing but 300+ pound linemen-type of players. You will get ROLLED hard trying to cover the other team's receivers, backs, and tight ends with your fatties. They'll score a touchdown on you every single time they touch the football. And when you get the ball on offense, you have no receiving threat to stretch the field, and opposing defensive players will have to speed to go AROUND your blocks and catch your ball carrier from behind in the backfield.

And unlike some people who clamor for collisions in this game because they think the bigger body always knocks down the smaller one, if you understand proper pursuit angles and tackling technique, those smaller and faster defensive players WILL bring down your fat-*** ball carrier.

If MWO were a well-designed game, you'd see the same variety of mech weights on a team WITHOUT the need to resort to weight limits. You could have NO weight limits at all, and if the game was well designed, a team with nothing but Assault mechs would lose to a team with a balance of all weight classes.

Let me illustrate further: imagine the American football field was only 30 feet wide, instead of 160 feet wide. You WOULD end up with a stupid sport with nothing but 300+ pound linemen types, simply because the field would be too damn small and too crowded for the faster players to use their agility and speed. You'd end up with a poorly-designed sport with no thinking or depth.

YueFei, you're actually arguing my point mate. There aren't 12 man teams of 300pound HGN's in PUG matches and they aren't as prevalent in 12 mans either. I'm not pro-HGN here. I'm just explaining why the bulk of the playerbase doesn't really fixate on the HGN like many do the Spider. People play a variety of different Mechs for the reasons I outlined initially. I've yet to see a 12man team of HGN in PUG or in 12man play, and never in RHoD yet. Not saying it hasn't happened, merely noting the HGN-apocalypse is overrated.

Edited by Lukoi, 19 October 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Roland]

I never understand folks who suggest that they only play for fun, and so don't want things to be balanced.

Proper name balance does not limit fun at all. It increases fun by increasing variety. Not just variety of usage by players who don't know any better or aren't competitive, but also variety of usage by competitive players.

And really, a balanced game is not any less fun than an unbalanced one, unless your definition of fun is exploiting the unbalanced aspects of a game.

Edited by Roland, 19 October 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Orbit Rain]

Sephlock, on 19 October 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

What do you expect? They're the Princes of the Universe.

Of course we are, Cameron's Highlanders ; )




Self promotion aside, CH hasn't been too worked up about the PPC tribes, even though they're the only things that give us trouble. We've been working all kinds of company loadouts and tactics, and those ppc tribes are gonna have fun trouble when weight limits comes in.

The only thing we really haven't tried are masses of HGN-733C's and CTF-3D's...too easy-mode, no challenge.

[Krivvan]

YueFei, on 19 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Everyone on the American football field has a ROLE to play, and we were also promised proper role warfare for this game, but we really don't have it.

I'd say that the current game does have roles to an extent. Effective teams tend to need their lights and their heavy elements. It's just that there aren't many roles within the heavy element of a team.

The rest I agree with you entirely on.

Orbit Rain, on 19 October 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

The only thing we really haven't tried are masses of HGN-733C's and CTF-3D's...too easy-mode, no challenge.

Which is another way of saying too effective.

And tonnage limits won't nerf that composition. Teams, including ours, work that into tonnage limits already.