228 replies to this topic

[Dudeman3k]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

If you change that you simply slip into a dps meta as it will become more important to throw out as much damage as possible compared to precision damage. While different, is really no better than the Alpha meta.

No better, probably. But you can't deny that a DPS Meta would make game duration much longer (and with it, more enjoyable).

[Roughneck45]

The meta is just the most damage you can get in the shortest period of time, always. That will never change. The weapons that do it will change, but that philosophy will not.

I don't understand why people hate pinpoint so much. The ability to pick off parts of a mech is probably the most satisfying thing in the game. Taking away convergence and adding more crosshairs for weapons isn't going to change the meta, its going to increase the skillgap. The good players are still going to dominate and put all their damage on target, and it will be harder for newer players to understand the game decreasing the amount of people that stay.

Balance is the best it has been in a long time. If they fixed SRM hit reg and revamped pulse lasers a bit brawling would be a lot more reliable and we would be in great shape. JJ's could also use some work but that is a tough one.

Edited by Roughneck45, 19 October 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

You are not talking about high alpha, you are talking about pinpoint damage. There's a huge difference there. High pinpoint to a single location is (in your opinion) OP and will always be. I got pinpoint alpha of 20 in my SHD and I'm doing good with it. Pinpoint of 30 on 3D and 733C and killing stuff. The numbers aren't high excactly, but you can focus down single location effectively.

I'll be using lasers again when the damage actually registers properly. Right now I get significantly better results with pinpoint.

[Dudeman3k]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

The meta is just the most damage you can get in the shortest period of time, always. That will never change. The weapons that do it will change, but that philosophy will not.

I don't understand why people hate pinpoint so much. The ability to pick off parts of a mech is probably the most satisfying thing in the game. Taking away convergence and adding more crosshairs for weapons isn't going to change the meta, its going to increase the skillgap. The good players are still going to dominate and put all their damage on target, and it will be harder for newer players to understand the game decreasing the amount of people that stay.

Balance is the best it has been in a long time. If they fixed SRM hit reg and revamped pulse lasers a bit we would be in great shape.

exactly my point. SKILL GAP.

"Taking away convergence and adding more crosshairs for weapons isn't going to change the meta, its going to increase the skillgap."

but with the change of convergence, a skilled player cannot alpha his way to victory either, so It would turn into a DPS META.

SKILL GAP. That is the MOST important thing about ANY game.... but you want to keep it friendly? This is the reason why new players are getting stomped.... is becuase all the SKilled player has to do now Is point and click!!! hahaha, give the skill some challenge and new players will live. and in turn have more fun. yes?

[Roughneck45]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

exactly my point. SKILL GAP.

"Taking away convergence and adding more crosshairs for weapons isn't going to change the meta, its going to increase the skillgap."

but with the change of convergence, a skilled player cannot alpha his way to victory either, so It would turn into a DPS META.

SKILL GAP. That is the MOST important thing about ANY game.... but you want to keep it friendly? This is the reason why new players are getting stomped.... is becuase all the SKilled player has to do now Is point and click!!! hahaha, give the skill some challenge and new players will live. and in turn have more fun. yes?

But further gaps don't hurt the skilled players, it hurts the new players.

They are still going to alpha you with those 733's, because the PPC's are in the same location, and the arms can converge.

And if you think arms shouldn't be able to converge, well then wtf is the point of the arm. If anything, it would make mechs that are not meta right now even more worthless.

Edited by Roughneck45, 19 October 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

No better, probably. But you can't deny that a DPS Meta would make game duration much longer (and with it, more enjoyable).

There was period of about a month were everyone was running UAC5s and AC2s - high DPS builds. When you got caught out of cover you didn't usually make it back into cover. The armor melted off. A switch to high DPS does not mean longer games by any means.

Edited by Steel Claws, 19 October 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

But further gaps don't hurt the skilled players, it hurts the new players.

They are still going to alpha you with those 733's, because the PPC's are in the same location, and the arms can converge.

And if you think arms shouldn't be able to converge, well then wtf is the point of the arm.

lol, no I agree, with arm actuators, the arms should retain its Point convergence as is, but torso's should not.

The "skill Gap" in this case, is knowledge of how and where the weapon will hit. For a new player it will be confusing, I agree, but for a "skilled" player it will still be very difficult to obliterate the new player, knowing full well, he'll have to chain his shots and aim at the same location, hoping the new player doesnt torso twist.

Does it hurt new players? yes, absolutely. But does it help them survive an encounter against a seasoned player too? yes. definitely.

Steel Claws, on 19 October 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

There was period of about a month were everyone was running UAC5s and AC2s - high DPS builds. When you got caught out of cover you didn't usually make it back into cover. The armor melted off. A switch to high DPS does not mean longer games by any means.

But your forgetting that their AC2's and AC5's were hitting you in pin-point convergence.

[Roughneck45]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Does it hurt new players? yes, absolutely. But does it help them survive an encounter against a seasoned player too? yes. definitely.

Do not agree at all there.

Anything that makes it more difficult for new pilots is not going to help them survive longer against skilled pilots.

There is already something you can do to mitiage pinpoint damage, torso twist and shield properly.

Edited by Roughneck45, 19 October 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

The ability to pick off parts of a mech is probably the most satisfying thing in the game.

The problem is people don't "pick off parts".

Decision making in this game is basically like this...is it a light mech or a centurion? Leg it.

Does it have an XL engine? Side torso.

Anything else, Center Torso till dead.

Any time you see damage going to arm's and such, it missed shots.

Good pilots don't miss shots, and thus don't really ever hit anything but the above.

[TygerLily]

I wish arm weapons converged but torso weapons fired straight forward....

[Noth]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

The problem is people don't "pick off parts".

Decision making in this game is basically like this...is it a light mech or a centurion? Leg it.

Does it have an XL engine? Side torso.

Anything else, Center Torso till dead.

Any time you see damage going to arm's and such, it missed shots.

Good pilots don't miss shots, and thus don't really ever hit anything but the above.

You do realize that this is common sense right? Lets nerf common sense, it is too effective.

[Dudeman3k]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Do not agree at all there.

Anything that makes it more difficult for new pilots is not going to help them survive longer against skilled pilots.

Think of it this way,

New player and Seasoned player are both piloting AC40 Jagar Mechs. Both running XL engines.

The AC40 Jagar does not have lower arm actuators, so its arms are treated like a torso weapon.

New player is inclined to alpha the seasoned player, he does, and the seasoned players jagar mech sufferes 20 damage to each of its arms.

Seasoned player knows he needs to aim for the side torso, so seasoned player chains his shots. he aims, and hits the new players left torso.

new player begins to run, as his weapons are on cool down.

Seasoned player no longer has a shot at the new players side torso to finish the job.

New player got away. VS. the pinpoint option, of an Instant 40damage to the new player, hes dead.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

You do realize that this is common sense right? Lets nerf common sense, it is too effective.

No, it's what happens when you have instant pinpoint convergence, coupled with an INSANELY high heat cap and sprinkled with some very lax hardpoint rules.

If the heat cap was lowered, and varied weapon types were used, along with slowed convergence (IE, you can still have pinpoint convergence, it's just not instant)...you suddenly have a very interesting tactical game where actual decisions matter more then putting your mouse over a slow moving target with a giant center torso and clicking.

[Roughneck45]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

The problem is people don't "pick off parts".

Decision making in this game is basically like this...is it a light mech or a centurion? Leg it.

Does it have an XL engine? Side torso.

Anything else, Center Torso till dead.

Any time you see damage going to arm's and such, it missed shots.

Good pilots don't miss shots, and thus don't really ever hit anything but the above.

This is true, but a good pilot can also put one shot into a location that is already critical to remove a weapon threat or take down an already weak leg.

Lots of mechs stack weapons on one side as well. Side torso's always have less armor than the CT, so you can make a mech into a stick more efficiently that way as well.

[Steel Claws]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

But your forgetting that their AC2's and AC5's were hitting you in pin-point convergence.

No actually I didn't but then that only happens if you stand still or move straight at someone so it doesn't normally apply to me.

Try shooting your weapons at the sky. Do they converge - no they do not. Shoot at a target moving at an angle to you and you have to lead them - therefore there isn't "perfect" convergence because your cross hairs are acually on something behind said target and therefore not converging correctly. Don't believe me - go try it yourself. The only weapon system in the game with perfect convergence is lasers - which most seem to be fine with because of the beam duration.

[Noth]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Think of it this way,

New player and Seasoned player are both piloting AC40 Jagar Mechs. Both running XL engines.

The AC40 Jagar does not have lower arm actuators, so its arms are treated like a torso weapon.

New player is inclined to alpha the seasoned player, he does, and the seasoned players jagar mech sufferes 20 damage to each of its arms.

Seasoned player knows he needs to aim for the side torso, so seasoned player chains his shots. he aims, and hits the new players left torso.

new player begins to run, as his weapons are on cool down.

Seasoned player no longer has a shot at the new players side torso to finish the job.

New player got away. VS. the pinpoint option, of an Instant 40damage to the new player, hes dead.

All non articulated armor mech instantly fall into much lowered use. You'd still have mech that mount weapons in articulated arms destroying new players. It doesn't fix anything. The skilled player will still absolutely destroy the new player.

[Roughneck45]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Think of it this way,

New player and Seasoned player are both piloting AC40 Jagar Mechs. Both running XL engines.

The AC40 Jagar does not have lower arm actuators, so its arms are treated like a torso weapon.

New player is inclined to alpha the seasoned player, he does, and the seasoned players jagar mech sufferes 20 damage to each of its arms.

Seasoned player knows he needs to aim for the side torso, so seasoned player chains his shots. he aims, and hits the new players left torso.

new player begins to run, as his weapons are on cool down.

Seasoned player no longer has a shot at the new players side torso to finish the job.

New player got away. VS. the pinpoint option, of an Instant 40damage to the new player, hes dead.

But its not going to work like that.

That new player is going to stare striaght at that enemy mech, and the skilled player is going to take the less than half a second required to adjust their aim and finish the job.

New player made less of an impact, skilled player still rolled them.

Even if they did turn to run because their weapons are on cooldown, they just killed themselves by giving their back armor and an AC40 boat.

Edited by Roughneck45, 19 October 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

You do realize that this is common sense right? Lets nerf common sense, it is too effective.

lol, dude.... I hope you realize common sense to you, is vastly different from the rest of the world.

For instance. Texting and driving is the dumbest thing you can EVER do... but a LOT of people do it... it's common sense to me not to do it, but there are a lot of dumb people in the world.

[Noth]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

No, it's what happens when you have instant pinpoint convergence, coupled with an INSANELY high heat cap and sprinkled with some very lax hardpoint rules.

If the heat cap was lowered, and varied weapon types were used, along with slowed convergence (IE, you can still have pinpoint convergence, it's just not instant)...you suddenly have a very interesting tactical game where actual decisions matter more then putting your mouse over a slow moving target with a giant center torso and clicking.

Varied weapon types are used all the time outside of competitive play. Without the pinpoint it would just simply be some other thing that takes it's place. Also the heat cap is not much higher than TT (heat cap varied with heatsinks there too since with more you could build more heat before even checking the heat table).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

This is true, but a good pilot can also put one shot into a location that is already critical to remove a weapon threat or take down an already weak leg.

Lots of mechs stack weapons on one side as well. Side torso's always have less armor than the CT, so you can make a mech into a stick more efficiently that way as well.

People better at math than me have shown that going after weapons instead of the kill is largely a waste of time.

Now sure, in a situation where someone who is a terrible shot turned some guy piloting a mech with a standard engine into swiss cheese, you might shoot off an already damaged arm when you encounter him.

But all things being equal, against very skilled players, you are seeing what I outlined earlier.

TIme to kill is the most important thing.