228 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, there is one way in which a "DPS-Meta" is better - it'd give MW:O more of a Battletech feel.

Of course, so many of the balancing issues of the game would be solved instantly, if PGI introduced an actual Heat Scale and Penalties into the game.

It would solve some of the current balance issues, but introduce a whole host of other ones.

[Joseph Mallan]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, there is one way in which a "DPS-Meta" is better - it'd give MW:O more of a Battletech feel.

Of course, so many of the balancing issues of the game would be solved instantly, if PGI introduced an actual Heat Scale and Penalties into the game.



People don't complain about your 5x 15dmg shots in TT because you can't place all 5 of those shots on the exact same component. Unlike MW:O where you can just single out the the CT with every one of those shots and kill the Mech in under a minute.

Even though each those 5 shots on TT are equal to the single 30 point pin point Alpha that are taking flack now in MW:O? If I was doing Pin Point locations with that, it would be 75 points to one location or equal to 150 points of convergent damage! The players are complaining about taking the same damage as one TT Gauss... ONE!!! Who about taking a single Gauss round on TT...? Unless its a Head shot or a stock Light Mech pilot!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

These debates always end up fighting about semantics.

Basic question, when you meet an undamaged opponent, where do you aim to fire?

Center torso for most, legs for lights and Centurion's and right/left torso if you know they are using an XL engine.

If you do anything else you are making a conscious decision to gimp yourself.

Second basic question, when you design your mech, do you try to use a variety of weapons, or do you like to use weapons with similar properties (IE PPC/Gauss, Dual AC/20, Multiple Large Lasers, etc).

Most of us are going to use weapons that we can alpha well together.

If you do anything else you are making a conscious decision to gimp yourself.

Do mechs live long enough to make you feel like you are in the Kings of the Battlefield?

This one is a personal feeling, but I do not feel like I'm in a King of the Battlefield, especially in anything less than 65 tons.

Does it require more skill to alpha or to chain fire/use multiple weapon groups?

This is a big one to me, we are supposed to be playing a thinking mans FPS. I think a big part of that is having a mech that mounts multiple weapon types, with a lot of variety.

When you play a human FPS, you use one weapon at a time, once you start using similar weapons and alpha striking, MW:O becomes just like a human FPS.

The difference is, in a human FPS there is a lot of quick movement and smaller objects to shoot at. In MW:O we have slow moving targets that make it very easy to hit your spot repeatedly.

It is much harder to aim multiple weapon types with multiple lead times and hit the same spots repeatedly. This means that being a good player becomes even more important. It means MORE skill, not less skill.

I don't care about TT vs. Mechwarrior Games, I care about the feeling of this game, and it just feels wrong.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 23 October 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[FearTheAmish]

Actually we currently have a more DPS meta then we have had in the past. Only really competative high alpha right now is the Guass Kitty. But that is exactly the difference A build takes the scalpel approach were as B is more of a shotgun. So of course A is going to better at getting kills because you are hitting what you point at. Were as B is spreading damage over every part of the mech.

[Ghogiel]

FearTheAmish, on 23 October 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Actually we currently have a more DPS meta then we have had in the past. Only really competative high alpha right now is the Guass Kitty. But that is exactly the difference A build takes the scalpel approach were as B is more of a shotgun. So of course A is going to better at getting kills because you are hitting what you point at. Were as B is spreading damage over every part of the mech.

I agree we have a more DPS meta.. than gauss ppc meta days.

but gauss kitty only high alpha... competitive.. wat?

What about HGNs and VTRs with AC20 and 2 PPCs. Hell even the AC10/2AC5 and 2 PPCs does as big an alpha as a gausscat.

And the dual gauss platform of choice is actually a 3D or jager anyway

Edited by Ghogiel, 23 October 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Ghogiel, on 19 October 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I'll just roll my victor with arm mounted weapons which will always be able to converge pin point due to actuators. Elbows are OP.

Or do the same thing with the Heavy Metal, for those of us that bit and spent the money.

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

I agree we have a more DPS meta.. than gauss ppc meta days.

but gauss kitty only high alpha... competitive.. wat?

What about HGNs and VTRs with AC20 and 2 PPCs. Hell even the AC10/2AC5 and 2 PPCs does as big an alpha as a gausscat.

And the dual gauss platform of choice is actually a 3D or jager anyway

Don't forget the misery with AC20/2PPC.

[Joseph Mallan]

I think I know what you are saying Nick. But You have to take into consideration a few things I think

First
Mechs are the Kings of the Battlefield. Unfortunately, Mechs are also the only thing on the battlefield. So that affects the feel of royalty instantly.

You seem to first support using boating, but then later say it is better for a player to mix types cause it improves your skill in the game. Which I thank you for, cause I only boat a max of 3 SRM6 on one build out of 4 Characters.

As to the feel of the game... I agree, and that is our fault not the makers. They are not making us use the systems we do to win. So I look to where the problem is. If We know a build is broken, why are we bringing it to the game? Folks are complaining about AC40Jagers, even though with double armor it feels just like a single AC20 on TT. And that 30 point alphas are to high. Even though it is equal to a single Gauss or Clan ERPPC on TT. I don't have a problem with these weapons cause I have played vs that level of instant damage for 30 years.

[nehebkau]

Chronojam, on 19 October 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Do you remember when they gave out a Dragon that would permanently shut down in the caldera on Caustic? That was pretty funny!

Did that really happen?!? If it did, it puts a TON of things into perspective.

[FearTheAmish]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

I agree we have a more DPS meta.. than gauss ppc meta days.

but gauss kitty only high alpha... competitive.. wat?

What about HGNs and VTRs with AC20 and 2 PPCs. Hell even the AC10/2AC5 and 2 PPCs does as big an alpha as a gausscat.

And the dual gauss platform of choice is actually a 3D or jager anyway

Gah forgot about Victor/HGN (which is suprising because i also pilot the 733C) Just came back from a few month break so relearning the Meta and just pulled out a tried and true old favorite and was amazed how well it has been working in pugs lately (think its because advanced zoom is working now). When it comes down to range and damage i prefer over PPC, mostly because Advanced Zoom allows you to pin point damage well outside of the range of even ERPPC's.

[Mister Blastman]

Copied from a post I made in another thread...

The real problems are... (in no particular order):

1. Jump sniping is still > all
2. High alpha, convergent, pinpoint damage at long range (and configs possible to excel up to close range)
3. Short and medium range weapons too hot and do too little damage

These problems allow the Highlander to dominate in 12 mans and will continue to do so until the above are addressed. Cataphracts as well.

[FearTheAmish]

Mister Blastman, on 23 October 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Copied from a post I made in another thread...

The real problems are... (in no particular order):

1. Jump sniping is still > all
2. High alpha, convergent, pinpoint damage at long range (and configs possible to excel up to close range)
3. Short and medium range weapons too hot and do too little damage

These problems allow the Highlander to dominate in 12 mans and will continue to do so until the above are addressed. Cataphracts as well.

The problem with this is Jump sniping is NOT the be all end all. Currently you can do it either with PPC or Gauss not Both. Also its only useful on certain maps because if you can get in close to them the heat of PPC builds cause them to either Overheat or output a lot less damage. While yes you can have a Victor with AC20/PPC the AC20 fire rate is very slow and can be avoided via torso twist, and with the UAC/PPC HGN with torso twisting and aiming for their arm you can almost completely disarm them in close range combat.

Current Meta seems to be more Mid range backed up by jump snipers. More of a role warfare setting, with whoever can deploy Jump snipers to make the defenders keep their heads down the best wins because the Med range can destroy the opponents Jump snipe/Brawler group.

EDIT: Also Quoting a Troll thread made by PEEF to point out how silly it is to ask for Spider Nerfs usually doesn't help your arguements.

Edited by FearTheAmish, 23 October 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

I think I know what you are saying Nick. But You have to take into consideration a few things I think

First
Mechs are the Kings of the Battlefield. Unfortunately, Mechs are also the only thing on the battlefield. So that affects the feel of royalty instantly.

You seem to first support using boating, but then later say it is better for a player to mix types cause it improves your skill in the game. Which I thank you for, cause I only boat a max of 3 SRM6 on one build out of 4 Characters.

As to the feel of the game... I agree, and that is our fault not the makers. They are not making us use the systems we do to win. So I look to where the problem is. If We know a build is broken, why are we bringing it to the game? Folks are complaining about AC40Jagers, even though with double armor it feels just like a single AC20 on TT. And that 30 point alphas are to high. Even though it is equal to a single Gauss or Clan ERPPC on TT. I don't have a problem with these weapons cause I have played vs that level of instant damage for 30 years.

What i'm explaining at first is what works best currently in the game. Boating and Alpha'ing CT/Legs/XL Engine Torso's.

What I talk about later is where I want the game to go. I want mechs to take a beating. I want taking off arms and targeting weapons to be a viable option.

I think the ways to get there are to move towards a system that requires varied load outs and promotes more of a chain firing with reaiming each shot, as opposed to single click alpha's.

There are many ways to get to that point.

One thing I like about Centurion's is that Zombie aspect, the problem is that they get to being a Zombie too quickly due to the current damage output.

I want everyone to be zombies, I want arms, gone, bright red, sparks flying out, before that final shot ignites their fusion engine and ends their world.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ok. Thanks you. I like that!

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

I think I know what you are saying Nick. But You have to take into consideration a few things I think

First
Mechs are the Kings of the Battlefield. Unfortunately, Mechs are also the only thing on the battlefield. So that affects the feel of royalty instantly.

That's true, and it gets worse if you consider teamwork turning it to (momentarily) 1-12 kings vs one king.

There is still a bit you can do - more hit points for example.

But I am not sure we need more hit points. Just better distributed ones, so that at least going for the CT isn't the auto-option. (That also makes team work harder, since while your personal mech might magic-converge on the exact location you aimed at, is your team doing the same? And if the CT is not the first object to blow up, you also live longer - maybe seriously hurt, but still around).

nehebkau, on 23 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Did that really happen?!? If it did, it puts a TON of things into perspective.

I remember having that problem with the 10 SHS (and sometimes below 10 SHS which were still allowed at some point during the CB) light mechs. I always boated heat sinks everywhere else, but it's difficult with lights. If you got too hot on Caustic, it would take forever to negate that heat. You were out of the fight for at least minutes, there is no point in shooting the enemy if you overheat immediately - you should run for your life and hope that some day, you can cool off.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 23 October 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

You know as a Grunt, My priority target was head shots. When I came home and went to a pistol range with a friend he said I wouldn't get a lot of points, I replied, "He ain't getting back up!" Center mass improves our ability to successfully hit your target, skill allows you to be more... interesting a shot.

[Dudeman3k]

dymlos2003, on 22 October 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I'm wondering if any of these complainers of high alpha have played ANY of the other mechwarrior games before.... I mean really? ITS part of Mechwarrior, sorry to say.

lol Im going to nip this argument while it's still fresh.

I remember ALL of the MW being like this. Pin-point and all. Yes, you are right. But that led to the same Meta In every single one of those MW titles. Thats right, the Heavier the Better (with the pin-point High Alpha mechanic only the heavies could obtain, with the armor to counter the same meta only heavies could load on)... and PGI wanted to step away from that with their idea of "role warfare"...

But I think they forgot about that somewhere down the line.

In all honesty, If this MW plays like the rest, that would mean this MW title is no different to the the past titles... It has an upgraded graphic engine, but It's no different. Thats just sad. This MW should be one of the greatest ever developed, but instead old players (like myself) are willing to settle for the same **** with a new name??

I refuse, I was hoping for growth. A more accurate change to what the past titles could not overcome with the limited technology. Now is different, so I'm a bit disappointed PGI is making the same mistake as past titles.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 23 October 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Praehotec8]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 October 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think the ways to get there are to move towards a system that requires varied load outs and promotes more of a chain firing with reaiming each shot, as opposed to single click alpha's.

There are many ways to get to that point.

I want everyone to be zombies, I want arms, gone, bright red, sparks flying out, before that final shot ignites their fusion engine and ends their world.

Good sentiments, and I think we'd all like to see that, but:

1.) What are these methods? I have yet to see anyone propose a method that is not either completely restrictive and not-fun for many players, impractical, or creates more additional problems as a result.

2.) Just as the developers don't want to give us the option to grief each other by completely destroying the legs of a mech and then leaving it to limp about, it does need to be given though that a similar thing could happen to many mechs once they are removed of everything but CT.

Many of the stalkers, for example, become weaponless AND slow once both STs are destroyed. There is still a potential for griefing here. It doesn't NEED to be that way (a weaponless mech can still cap), but it does have the possibility to be frustrating. Imagine an armless, ST'less stalker with broken legs in the middle of, say... tourmaline. He may as well be dead for all the good (and fun) he will do (have).

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't improve the emphasis on destroying parts of mechs, but it does bear some consideration.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Praehotec8, on 23 October 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Good sentiments, and I think we'd all like to see that, but:

1.) What are these methods? I have yet to see anyone propose a method that is not either completely restrictive and not-fun for many players, impractical, or creates more additional problems as a result.

2.) Just as the developers don't want to give us the option to grief each other by completely destroying the legs of a mech and then leaving it to limp about, it does need to be given though that a similar thing could happen to many mechs once they are removed of everything but CT.

The completely restrictive/not-fun for many players is anecdotal at best. And there really needs some thought process put into what is important to players too. Whether it's customization or gameplay. Because they aren't always compatible.

First thing and main thing is we need to re-visit is the heat system. The current maximum heat threshold is too high. If it were lowered, it would start to limit the ability to alpha repeatedly considerably. This is also helpful because it can be applied to the Clans.

It's really the ultimate balancing point in this game. Also we'd have to get rid of Ghost Heat, it's dumb.

I think the game would be much better off if alpha'ing was a last ditch effort, as opposed to the first thing we do and something we do repeatedly.

The problem though, is that with the Clans, unless you restrict the whole concept of Omnimechs, those suckers are gonna have 4 Gauss Rifles, or 3 AC/20's and other craziness that the heat system won't be able to handle.

Second part is I feel that customization at the cost of gameplay is going to in the long run hurt this game. It is the reason I think PGI is really going to have a hard time with the Clans as well.

I do think we need to come up with more restrictive hardpoints to go along with adjusting the heat system.

This will create a situation where, due to having to re-aim weapons with different speeds and spreads, you will be chain firing more (once again) and when you alpha it won't have the same effect that alpha'ing 3 PPC's or whatever boat set-up you want would have.

If you combine the two above with proper hitbox fixes like Paul alluded too, you might be able to avoid any kind of convergence changes.

[FearTheAmish]

Praehotec8, on 23 October 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Good sentiments, and I think we'd all like to see that, but:

1.) What are these methods? I have yet to see anyone propose a method that is not either completely restrictive and not-fun for many players, impractical, or creates more additional problems as a result.

2.) Just as the developers don't want to give us the option to grief each other by completely destroying the legs of a mech and then leaving it to limp about, it does need to be given though that a similar thing could happen to many mechs once they are removed of everything but CT.

Many of the stalkers, for example, become weaponless AND slow once both STs are destroyed. There is still a potential for griefing here. It doesn't NEED to be that way (a weaponless mech can still cap), but it does have the possibility to be frustrating. Imagine an armless, ST'less stalker with broken legs in the middle of, say... tourmaline. He may as well be dead for all the good (and fun) he will do (have).

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't improve the emphasis on destroying parts of mechs, but it does bear some consideration.

One of my friends had a good idea...

Currently heat is set at high threshold low dissipation. Basically you can fire alot of weapons but it takes a bit to dissipate that heat. To move to a less alpha heavy state flip it. Low threshold High dissipation. This would allow laser builds to become stronger because you could cycle through them faster as well as lowering the amount of damage an alpha could be.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 October 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

These debates always end up fighting about semantics.

Basic question, when you meet an undamaged opponent, where do you aim to fire?

Center torso for most, legs for lights and Centurion's and right/left torso if you know they are using an XL engine.

If you do anything else you are making a conscious decision to gimp yourself.

Second basic question, when you design your mech, do you try to use a variety of weapons, or do you like to use weapons with similar properties (IE PPC/Gauss, Dual AC/20, Multiple Large Lasers, etc).

Most of us are going to use weapons that we can alpha well together.

If you do anything else you are making a conscious decision to gimp yourself.

Do mechs live long enough to make you feel like you are in the Kings of the Battlefield?

This one is a personal feeling, but I do not feel like I'm in a King of the Battlefield, especially in anything less than 65 tons.

Does it require more skill to alpha or to chain fire/use multiple weapon groups?

This is a big one to me, we are supposed to be playing a thinking mans FPS. I think a big part of that is having a mech that mounts multiple weapon types, with a lot of variety.

When you play a human FPS, you use one weapon at a time, once you start using similar weapons and alpha striking, MW:O becomes just like a human FPS.

The difference is, in a human FPS there is a lot of quick movement and smaller objects to shoot at. In MW:O we have slow moving targets that make it very easy to hit your spot repeatedly.

It is much harder to aim multiple weapon types with multiple lead times and hit the same spots repeatedly. This means that being a good player becomes even more important. It means MORE skill, not less skill.

I don't care about TT vs. Mechwarrior Games, I care about the feeling of this game, and it just feels wrong.

Well put and hits the nail dead on !!