96 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 20 October 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

So all you 'nay sayers' are thinking it's ok that if a leg/arm/ct is hit, no where near a side torso, it's ok for the side torso to ALSO get hit too, even though it wasn't actually hit.

You're ok with that?

A video would be nice, but technically it's not that hard to hit their side torsos. It's similar to the Hunchy's hunch in being a magnetic target, but once in a while a Jager surprises me with a STD engine.

I've run a BJ which has been considered a mini-Jager. The BJ is fine and so is the Jager. The softness in the Jager's side torsos are compensated with the most dakka you could put in it (AC40 Jagers still being popular) with high arms.

[Dimento Graven]

FupDup, on 20 October 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

He also thinks medium mech scales are fine.

Yeah, for the most part I am because there's been no real hard and fast rule on that.

As we can see from the following original FASA design concept poster:
The locust, the lightest 'mech of those shown, is the tallest mech.

So yeah, I'm ok with 'out of the norm' scale 'mechs.

My issue with the Jagermech is that it appears that the side torsos are taking damage even when they're not actually being hit, at a ridiculously high damage rate, and that maybe PGI should look at it.

There've been times when I'm fighting a Jager, I've hit the right leg with an AC20, only to have BOTH the right leg and LEFT TORSO take damage, or have hit the LEFT ARM with a PPC and both the left arm and RIGHT TORSO take damage.

And no, no one else was near enough to fire any weapons at it, it's just something odd going on with Jager hit detection.

If you guys think THAT'S ok, you must be alright with Spider hit detection, because really, the Spider has the flip side of that problematic coin.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Considering all of a jager's "punch" relies on the sholders, having huge flat hitboxes cripples the mech vs other heavies/assaults. On the plus side a jager doesn't have to get into close range.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Dimento Graven, on 20 October 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

So all you 'nay sayers' are thinking it's ok that if a leg/arm/ct is hit, no where near a side torso, it's ok for the side torso to ALSO get hit too, even though it wasn't actually hit.

You're ok with that?

That happens to everybody, it's not any more or less common on the Jager than it is on any other mech. Most of the time it isn't even a "glitch" in terms of you taking damage you shouldn't have, but a "hiccup" in HSR recording the damage a few seconds (or more) later than it should have.

So yes, there is a problem; but no, it isn't a problem with the Jagermech.

[Cybermech]

seems like you piloting a mech that doesn't suit your play style.

In a very plain sense, xl engines = side torso, std engine cocknballs.

Since the arms are high on the mech you can't shield your front parts well enough so dying by CT would be easy enough as is.
Survival rate with XL is from 2 things, ability to fit bigger engine (speed/torso twisting) and normally the ability to fit bigger guns.
If you don't use this to your advantage then the mech is simply not for you.

[Deathlike]

Cybermech, on 20 October 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Since the arms are high on the mech you can't shield your front parts well enough so dying by CT would be easy enough as is.

Yea, those arms can't shield a thing. Same occurs with the BJ.

Compare this to the Trebuchet with the large arms or the infamous Centurion... or even the Quickdraw (specifically the 4G). Those arms are capable shields.

The Jager simply can't shield itself using its arms worth a damn.

[Duymon]

I don't think Jagers need this adjustment. Like the catapult, they are not supposed to be survivable brawlers.

A price has to be paid for running around at 80+ kph with Dual AC20's.

It also doesn't help that Jagers are usually auto focused because they often do carry scary amounts of heavy hitting weapons.

[VIPER2207]

can't see any problems here.
I'm running mine with XL and no cheese-build like AC40, dual Gauss or stuff like that.

[Mr 144]

Sounds Familiar...Oh wait, February 2013...

Mr 144, on 15 February 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I know I'm being negative in the Jager threads, but that's just because I really want to like this mech. It has a lot of pluses, but no way to use them. Consider the following...

Side Torso Wings/Shields:


From the artwork, these look like an excellent way to shield damage from the massive CT ala Awesome arm shields. If these are the side torso hitboxes, then frontal damage is almost impossible (good for dakka dakka), but flanking damage is extreme (bad for XL use). See the issue? In order to carry ballistics, an XL is almost required, but that negates any of the benifits to using the shields for CT protection. If the 'shield' hitboxes are part of the arm (doubtful from the artwork) then twist shielding with an XL is great, but of course being so arm dependant AND using them as shields isn't exactly optimum either. I think the model/hitboxes are going to be a catch 22 in usefulness. While making ideal shields, the only time you'd want to use them is when you can't due to arm dependence and XL use.

Huh...

[Corvus Antaka]

2 ac/20 tells a different story.

[Mr 144]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 20 October 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

2 ac/20 tells a different story.

always has been, and always shall be an (admittedly fun) glass canon pug build

Edited by Mr 144, 20 October 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Dimento Graven, on 20 October 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Yeah, for the most part I am because there's been no real hard and fast rule on that.

As we can see from the following original FASA design concept poster:

LEL

He invoked CBT for reasons. Fail.

[OneEyed Jack]

Honestly, I think it's a perception issue. Yes, Jager torsos get hit a lot. That's partially the simple fact that anyone not aiming for a specific target will be aiming center mass, and if it's from even a little on the side, or if they are a little off on aim, it's likely to hit a side torso. It's also largely because people do aim for the STs. Not only is it often a good way to kill a Jager, but also for the same reason they do it to Stalkers. Jagers tend to pack a wallop, and removing a ST is a a much quicker way to bring their damage down while you work on killing them, if they survive losing the ST.

But the "it hit somewhere else AND the ST" feeling is probably nothing more than the same thing that had so many people convinced for so long that PPCs had splash damage. (Hint: they didn't) It's because, while convergence is "perfect," it's trying to converge on the furthest point under the reticle at the time the shot was fired, and weapons mounted in different locations will often impact a different point, because that point is between the weapon and the point of convergence. Since weapons a rather often fired in pairs or more, it's not uncommon for a single shot to hit more than one location. It's really no different than clipping terrain with some of the weapons in a shot.

[Voidcrafter]

Oh goodie - what a great idea!
Let's make the most popular mech for a Boom!-Build immortal by giving him the old Raven-3L hitboxes!
What's the worse that could happen?!?
Oh I forgot about the other 3x/4x AC5/AC2 builds, which are a real menace for a heavier mech...
Yep.
I think they're balanced too - and I used to pilot one(sorta alot)...
But then I took an AC20 in the knee...

[Rascula]

Im fairly sure there should be a rule that states you must have 1k+ drops in an Awesome before you are aloud to complain about torso hit boxes on any other mech chassis.....

Seriously just be happy the damn mech works roughly as intended let alone can tote an ac40... Some folks are never happy it seems.

[Dimento Graven]

Ghogiel, on 21 October 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

LEL

He invoked CBT for reasons. Fail.

I have no idea what this means. Apparently you're so 'cool' you don't even have to communicate like an adult...

[Dimento Graven]

Voidcrafter, on 21 October 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Oh goodie - what a great idea!
Let's make the most popular mech for a Boom!-Build immortal by giving him the old Raven-3L hitboxes!
What's the worse that could happen?!?
Oh I forgot about the other 3x/4x AC5/AC2 builds, which are a real menace for a heavier mech...
Yep.
I think they're balanced too - and I used to pilot one(sorta alot)...
But then I took an AC20 in the knee...

I'm amazed that "I" have been seen as unreasonable, when a lot of the responses to this thread have been along these lines, "Oh we must punish this build because it gets to carry two AC20's/gauss, never mind that it's potentially receiving MORE damage than it really should."

It seems a significant number of you don't want a potential problem fixed out of spiteful, immature, jealousy issues, not because you actually believe it's NOT broken.

Again, the issue I seem to have with it is, 99% of the time, if I get hit in an arm, or leg, or CT, somehow one of the side torsos also seems to take damage simultaneous, and it seems to be the exact same damage as the arm/leg/CT hit. IE: I get hit with ONE PPC in the lower leg, a 10 point shot, one of my side torsos ALSO gets hit for 10 points, from the SAME SINGLE PPC round.

This is not a problem with 'play style' as what kind of 'play style' can compensate for a broken game mechanic? If I can stand behind a building, with only my left side exposed, get hit from the front, and take damage on my RIGHT side, I think there's a problem. It could be a problem that affects ALL mechs, only it's more noticeable with the weak side torsos of the Jager. Maybe this is something that could be looked into, no?

If this is a problem with HSR as had been suggested previously then it needs to be reviewed, because it's probably happening to almost all 'mechs, it's just that for the Jager with its EXTREMELY thin side torsos, the problem is more exacerbated.

If this is a geometry issue, then it needs to be reviewed because of all the other similarly designed 'mechs might ALSO be having this issue.

[Voidcrafter]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

I'm amazed that "I" have been seen as unreasonable, when a lot of the responses to this thread have been along these lines, "Oh we must punish this build because it gets to carry two AC20's/gauss, never mind that it's potentially receiving MORE damage than it really should."

It seems a significant number of you don't want a potential problem fixed out of spiteful, immature, jealousy issues, not because you actually believe it's NOT broken.

Again, the issue I seem to have with it is, 99% of the time, if I get hit in an arm, or leg, or CT, somehow one of the side torsos also seems to take damage simultaneous, and it seems to be the exact same damage as the arm/leg/CT hit. IE: I get hit with ONE PPC in the lower leg, a 10 point shot, one of my side torsos ALSO gets hit for 10 points, from the SAME SINGLE PPC round.

This is not a problem with 'play style' as what kind of 'play style' can compensate for a broken game mechanic? If I can stand behind a building, with only my left side exposed, get hit from the front, and take damage on my RIGHT side, I think there's a problem. It could be a problem that affects ALL mechs, only it's more noticeable with the weak side torsos of the Jager. Maybe this is something that could be looked into, no?

If this is a problem with HSR as had been suggested previously then it needs to be reviewed, because it's probably happening to almost all 'mechs, it's just that for the Jager with its EXTREMELY thin side torsos, the problem is more exacerbated.

If this is a geometry issue, then it needs to be reviewed because of all the other similarly designed 'mechs might ALSO be having this issue.

Well the cataphract also hits this issue, as the AWESOME too - it's just some mech design - still lotta people are playing with the Jagger and the Cata - you can't say the same about the AWS though...
The hardpoint layout is just pushing you toward that kind of builds so yea - I kinda see it just.
While on the AWS, especially after the PPC "adjustments"(since I've always seen this mech as the perfect one for PPC/energy builds) now is rendered near to complete useless cause of what we're talking about.
I will agree with your point, and even so - everywhere the Jagger was described as a paperarmored mech.
And yea - hardpoint distribution has a lot to do with the issue - the weird hands don't help you shield your torsos from incoming fire does it not?
And they are somehow connected with the rest of the overall design too.
All in all - you should be mad at the person, who made the design of the Jagger be that way - nothing else.
For comparison - there are mechs like the Centurion, where hitting the desired torso part is a complete challenge.
Anyways - I really think that if they change it's bodyparts layout, having in mind the current alure toward ballistics, this would turn into dissaster.
And I know how you feel - trust me - I had all the jaggers on my account. I even bought the A variant twice, cause I wanted one of them to be somewhat dedicated to SRMs instead of ACs.
And I've played a lot with it too.
Still that doesn't makes the conversation any lighter - pretty much for me the stuff is chained - you need XL when you're building some heavy ACed builds(well... that's the common case scenario at least).
XLs, of course, gets you killed.
The few Jaggers I've encountered that didn't followed that rule almost in any single case got me really surprised and owned me cause I underestimated them.
So yea - it's somehow connected.
Putting heavy ballistics, that pushes you toward using XL, which as result gets you killed when you get your sidetorso destroyed, cause of the hitbox model.
But it could be me - cause I seem it somehow as reasonable - having in mind they're not the heaviest mech in their chasis...
But it could be the other way around - I don't know - you know you're fragile, cause of the hitboxes and you start trying the best to do the most by putting heavy ballistics
Pick one.
Or better - pick an Orion (evil)

[Dimento Graven]

Voidcrafter, on 21 October 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Well the cataphract also hits this issue, as the AWESOME too - it's just some mech design - still lotta people are playing with the Jagger and the Cata - you can't say the same about the AWS though...
The hardpoint layout is just pushing you toward that kind of builds so yea - I kinda see it just.
While on the AWS, especially after the PPC "adjustments"(since I've always seen this mech as the perfect one for PPC/energy builds) now is rendered near to complete useless cause of what we're talking about.
I will agree with your point, and even so - everywhere the Jagger was described as a paperarmored mech.
And yea - hardpoint distribution has a lot to do with the issue - the weird hands don't help you shield your torsos from incoming fire does it not?
And they are somehow connected with the rest of the overall design too.
All in all - you should be mad at the person, who made the design of the Jagger be that way - nothing else.
For comparison - there are mechs like the Centurion, where hitting the desired torso part is a complete challenge.
Anyways - I really think that if they change it's bodyparts layout, having in mind the current alure toward ballistics, this would turn into dissaster.
And I know how you feel - trust me - I had all the jaggers on my account. I even bought the A variant twice, cause I wanted one of them to be somewhat dedicated to SRMs instead of ACs.
And I've played a lot with it too.
Still that doesn't makes the conversation any lighter - pretty much for me the stuff is chained - you need XL when you're building some heavy ACed builds(well... that's the common case scenario at least).
XLs, of course, gets you killed.
The few Jaggers I've encountered that didn't followed that rule almost in any single case got me really surprised and owned me cause I underestimated them.
So yea - it's somehow connected.
Putting heavy ballistics, that pushes you toward using XL, which as result gets you killed when you get your sidetorso destroyed, cause of the hitbox model.
But it could be me - cause I seem it somehow as reasonable - having in mind they're not the heaviest mech in their chasis...
But it could be the other way around - I don't know - you know you're fragile, cause of the hitboxes and you start trying the best to do the most by putting heavy ballistics
Pick one.
Or better - pick an Orion (evil)

That's just it though, if this is specific ONLY to the Jagermech hit box locations, maybe the problem isn't as critical as I believe.

However, some of you have mentioned other 'mechs, Blackjacks, Awsomes, Trebuchets, et al, as having similar issues, so perhaps we're dealing with a more generally used mechanic, such as HSR, or something else with the hit detection engine, like geometries or something along those lines.

If the former is actually the case, then it's in the best interest of game balance to look into it. Not just for the sake of the Jager, but all the other 'mechs as well, and maybe we'd also accidentally get a fix for Spiders too, who knows?

All I've been saying is that PGI should at the very least carefully re-examine it, because there sure seems to be a problem.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Provide video evidence in controlled circumstances and maybe something useful can come from this discussion. Until that happens this thread is pretty pointless.

What needs to happen is you need to drop with a buddy. He needs a variety of weapons on his mech (some kind of bigger AC like a 10 or 20, a PPC, and a laser). The two of you need to move off to a corner somewhere and he needs to shoot you carefully in various locations with only one weapon at a time. Record this and post the results and suddenly we can have a useful discussion. This method is replicable, so other players can repeat your experiment and attempt to verify the results.