251 replies to this topic

[KAT Ayanami]

Clarice Creed, on 22 October 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Did PGI state that they want to keep the pinpoint damage we currently have? I'd think a changing reticule based on movement and heat would reflect TT hit-modifiers better and also reduce many of the pinpoint alpha strike issues, maybe to the point that they can reverse the ghost heat. If an explanation for not using convergence or other non-pinpoint aiming models exists I'd be glad if someone could link it.

No. You cannot do that.

If you do not shoot where you point, you get mad as hell.

I understand your point, but it will be a headache once you shoot a couple of times and the bullet misses. Or you shoot a laser and the stream goes bananas and starts moving on you.

[Dirkdaring]

Wanna know whats fun in a 2x AC20 Jager? Pugs.

[Purlana]

Your ultra AC / PPC boats failed to kill an AC/20 mech at range? Oh Nooooo!

Edited by Purlana, 22 October 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[RetroActive]

Dirkdaring, on 22 October 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Wanna know whats fun in a 2x AC20 Jager? Pugs.

I don't see your point....I see those stats from a variety of mechs in just about every match I play...

[Sovery_Simple]

WhoDidTheElf, on 20 October 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

FIREBRAND

That's my AC/40 build. Take note of the armor on the legs, and rear of the mech. It's paper thin. An AC/40 would blow one of my legs off with a single hit, actually a Jenner with 6MLA's would as well.

6 Mlas would require a critical on an ammo cache to take your leg off (24 armor, 60/2=30 internals, 24-30=6 damage to internals, with two different ammo cache's to spread the critical hits out.) An AC40 could take your leg off on a good ammo hit, but if you've spent that ammo ( 3 and a half shots per cache makes it quick to expend) then that ac40 is going to take two shots to take your leg off.

Oh, and that "easy to destroy leg armor" of yours? It's almost as tough as a fully armored medium's side torso. Example: HBK with 40 frontal armor and 8 rear on a side torso, 48/2 = 24 internals + 40 frontal for 64 armor, you have 54 on your "incredibly easy to kill" legs.

To the poster above: that's under 100 damage a kill, with 3 assists to spread more damage around.

Edited by Whoops, 22 October 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[kf envy]

Lubalin, on 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

2 shots from an AC40 Jagermech at like 500m and my atlas has lost 2/3 of its weapons.

This is way imbalanced.

When I bring 1 ac20 on a mech, getting kills is insanely easy due to such accurate damage. Anything comparable has serious downsides. 2 ppcs generate a ton of heat. 2 LL are tough to get pinpoint accuracy. And that's just comparable to a single ac20.

2x ac20 is out of control. 40 damage, pinpoint accuracy, that works at such a long range is way too much. A mech shouldn't be able to fire 2 at once so often without overheating.

Ac20 needs a more drastic range limitation and a huge heat penalty when firing more than 1.

Oh, and L2P, kill at range, don't get close, etc. is true, but tactics don't fix poor balance. Cheers.

there nothing wrong with the AC20 just you need L2P with an atlas

[kf envy]

the huanglong, on 20 October 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Pinpoint AC40 usages is not in the spirit of the battletech mechanics on which the game is based. It's not fun for anyone but stat-padding self aggrandizing bigmouths. Those players should try real builds instead of hoping there is a lot of AS7-RS© in the enemy team each drop.

that is not all that true some mech have been build around a weapon. the clans have and field the hunchback llc and it running 2 UAC20 and 2 ER Mlasers

an it has become popular with clan jade falcon sibbies during their first trial of position as it often allows them one quick kill

[Dirkdaring]

RetroActive, on 22 October 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I don't see your point....I see those stats from a variety of mechs in just about every match I play...

It was kinda sarcasm - with AC40s being so OP at all. Poking a little fun at the OP. I have better stats in my 2 ERPPC/4 SRM6 stalker. Should call for nerfs on that too I guess.

[New Day]

kf envy, on 22 October 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

there nothing wrong with the AC20 just you need L2P with an atlas

go pilot a medium then. Not fast enough to run away not armored enough to kill.

[Joseph Mallan]

Selfish, on 22 October 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

They're very different platforms. The 2x Gauss can't OHKO, can't fire instantly, has the lowest DPS of all ballistics except machine guns, and weighs more. Its new speed is nice with its added range. Their play styles differ greatly. I would never consider trying to go for primary HS on dual gauss. On the 40 you shoot for the head, if you hit it instantly kills every mech in the game. If you miss you strike CT so yolo.

The reason I brought up OHKO's is that it hasn't been discussed here, even though it was a large reason for ghost heat and the gauss change. It delinked and discouraged convergence on the majority of 33+ combos. The AC/40 remains the most accessible in sheer ease of use. It only requires heat management, which it has the least problem with out of all remaining combos.

DPS don't mean a thing when 15 points come off on contact. DPS is only important when your weapons fire constantly like lasers or MGs. AC20s evaporate armor in an instance. One Medium laser needs to fire on point for...16 seconds to remove as much armor as an AC20 does in on impact!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 October 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

DPS don't mean a thing when 15 points come off on contact. DPS is only important when your weapons fire constantly like lasers or MGs. AC20s evaporate armor in an instance. One Medium laser needs to fire on point for...16 seconds to remove as much armor as an AC20 does in on impact!

I really hope some times maybe in 2 - or 3 years will understand that.

BTW: together with that post i have seen a rising numbers of AC 40 builds ... didn't have seen any of them for a really long period - what did happen?

[Joseph Mallan]

Possibly people have learned how to circumvent the stupid crazy heat penalty.

[Vodrin Thales]

Oni Ralas, on 20 October 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

@ that range, it would have done 20dmg pinpoint. How in the hell did that crit out an atlas?

It's the power of hyperbole.

NamesAreStupid, on 23 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

go pilot a medium then. Not fast enough to run away not armored enough to kill.

That's more of a medium mech problem than an AC20 problem.

[Purlana]

NamesAreStupid, on 23 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

go pilot a medium then. Not fast enough to run away not armored enough to kill.

Several medium mechs pack an AC/20. I don't see how nerfing the AC/20 helps you out....?

Edited by Purlana, 23 October 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Ashvins]

CravenMadness, on 20 October 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

are people still bitching about ac/40 jagers? ... That's hilarious... Shut up and play the game. You'll realize that ac/40s are few and far between anymore.

I beg to differ but in my last 6 matches I ran into a total of 14 ac40 mechs most jagers, 2 K2's.

The problem here is that a 4 ppc or erppc build generates 73 or 92 heat vs the 24 of an AC 40 build. Your 40 point alpha has been nixed effectively in all save the ac40 style. Yes they can be fragile (not always as some insist they must be) and they have limited shots but when in all but assaults the dual ac hit will take an arm,leg, and in some cases a torso, it's overpowered for the rate of fire/heat/ammo balancing act.

High alpha builds have been severely curtailed save the AC 40. And as for the SRM 36 the damage is spread and generates 30 heat (a few more than the ac 40) so that cuts off that argument.

An AC 40 build can still kill many other mechs with a single alpha or at the very least strip them of weapons to retaliate with, which DOES unbalance the game. They won't shut down due to heat, most have decent maneuverability and many can take a few hits before loosing a weapon or torso And they can hit you a 2nd time in a mere 4 sec.

Do you ever wonder why we still don't have a single Assault Mech that can mount dual ac 20's even though there are several in cannon that could have done so?

Making 5 65 ton mechs that can do it is bad enough add even one assault that could and this issue would take on a whole new life with screams for pink slips for anyone involved with allowing it to come to pass.

In short are they OP, IMO yes, they need some more tweaking in the ROF/Heat/Ammo balancing act, and the pinpoint nature of the game makes them OP with that considered. If they were LBX 20's there would not be an issue but sadly we wont see that weapon for a while yet.

[New Day]

Purlana, on 23 October 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Several medium mechs pack an AC/20. I don't see how nerfing the AC/20 helps you out....?

2≠1

Vodrin Thales, on 23 October 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

That's more of a medium mech problem than an AC20 problem.

Well it's not my problem so why should I care, right? It's not like there is a super, some might call it ultra, version of the same gun that would make it everybody's problem just around the corner. Well not a better version of only 1 gun, but a super version of basically every weapon we have, that will make current fights last approximately ~3s for anyone not in an Atlas.

Also nice victim blaming. 'It's theirs problem walking around in their scantly clad chassis with hardly any armor', thought he. 'They deserve what they got'.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ashvins, on 23 October 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

I beg to differ but in my last 6 matches I ran into a total of 14 ac40 mechs most jagers, 2 K2's.

The problem here is that a 4 ppc or erppc build generates 73 or 92 heat vs the 24 of an AC 40 build. Your 40 point alpha has been nixed effectively in all save the ac40 style. Yes they can be fragile (not always as some insist they must be) and they have limited shots but when in all but assaults the dual ac hit will take an arm,leg, and in some cases a torso, it's overpowered for the rate of fire/heat/ammo balancing act.

High alpha builds have been severely curtailed save the AC 40. And as for the SRM 36 the damage is spread and generates 30 heat (a few more than the ac 40) so that cuts off that argument.

An AC 40 build can still kill many other mechs with a single alpha or at the very least strip them of weapons to retaliate with, which DOES unbalance the game. They won't shut down due to heat, most have decent maneuverability and many can take a few hits before loosing a weapon or torso And they can hit you a 2nd time in a mere 4 sec.

Do you ever wonder why we still don't have a single Assault Mech that can mount dual ac 20's even though there are several in cannon that could have done so?

Making 5 65 ton mechs that can do it is bad enough add even one assault that could and this issue would take on a whole new life with screams for pink slips for anyone involved with allowing it to come to pass.

In short are they OP, IMO yes, they need some more tweaking in the ROF/Heat/Ammo balancing act, and the pinpoint nature of the game makes them OP with that considered. If they were LBX 20's there would not be an issue but sadly we wont see that weapon for a while yet.

STHAP! The ability to inflict an equal amount of damage as a Single AC20 on TT is to powerful? You realize 2 AC20 on TT would do the equivalent MW:O damage to two separate locations.

So a Raven on TT would take 20 damage to 13 points of side torso armor, then internals AND 20 points to the 16 points of armor (then internals) on its leg If I fired two AC20s at it! So is losing a leg in one salvo or a leg and side torso worse?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 October 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Ashvins, on 23 October 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

High alpha builds have been severely curtailed save the AC 40. And as for the SRM 36 the damage is spread and generates 30 heat (a few more than the ac 40) so that cuts off that argument.

I disagree.

Considering both my HGN and VTRs do 40dmg pinpoint. And I have better range and maneuverability, especially in the VTR.

Quote

Do you ever wonder why we still don't have a single Assault Mech that can mount dual ac 20's even though there are several in cannon that could have done so?

Making 5 65 ton mechs that can do it is bad enough add even one assault that could and this issue would take on a whole new life with screams for pink slips for anyone involved with allowing it to come to pass.

I don't have to wonder, I have jumpjetting 80 and 90 ton assaults that can lay out 40 pinpoint alphas which replicates the feeling well enough. They far out class a AC40 jager for boom boom time, less ammo concerns, no ghost heat, more armor, JJ.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

I disagree.

Considering both my HGN and VTRs do 40dmg pinpoint. And I have better range and maneuverability, especially in the VTR.


I don't have to wonder, I have jumpjetting 80 and 90 ton assaults that can lay out 40 pinpoint alphas which replicates the feeling well enough. They far out class a AC40 jager for boom boom time, less ammo concerns, no ghost heat, more armor, JJ.

A forty pinpoint is in this game is equal to a single AC20 on TT. You need 4 AC20 to match the punch of 2 TT AC20! 40 points on tabletop would equal 80 damage in MW:O. Do you have a Mech that can lay 80 pin point into a single location?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 October 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Original poster: you might have suffered from some weird armor bypassing bug that got you killed. It certainly was not ~30 damage versus 60+ armor. Or, you might want to spend some more time practicing playing an Atlas - they are not easy mechs to master.

The dual ac20 builds are a brilliant addition to the game. You give up 28 tons for the weapons, and should have more than 6 tons of ammo. That uses 26+ crit spaces. Range and ammo is limited, and most skilled players will prioritize taking out that mech first. Also, building other combos that do a similar amount of pinpoint damage with less drawbacks is fairly easy.

The real problem remains the same: high damage alpha strikes with pinpoint accuracy. I believe the solution is fairly easy: only chain fire with 0.5+ seconds between each shot hits in the precise location. This increases the premium on skill: either you have the ability to land consecutive shots in the same location, or you do not.

TL;DR? Spread out alpha damage!