251 replies to this topic

[SpiralFace]

I don't know about others, but I feel the main issue I have with the AC 20 isn't the 20 pinpoint damage (as that was its role even in the BG.) But the fact that it is hands down a weapon with nearly all benefits and no disadvantages beyond its range and projectile speed.

I mean, if you where to break down the things that you would consider "favorable" traits in this game, it usually breaks down to two things:

- pin point damage alphas,
- DPS.

I have no problem with an AC 40 being as powerful as it is in the pin point damage department, as its what the weapon is designed to do.

The thing that frustrates me is that its not enough that the AC 20 is the highest pinpoint damaging weapon in the game, but it is also the HIGHEST DPS weapon in the game as well. This means that in addition to having a weapon that already punches a hole bigger then anything else, Its DPS is also so high that no other weapon grouping can hope to compete with it.

I mean even if you take 4 ML's with the heatsinks to bring its heat load down to AC 20 levels, (Which actually leaves you with less crit spacing on the mech itself if those HS are doubles,) you have a weapon that does the same dps, but one that DOESN'T do pinpoint.

I feel like the AC 20 damage, range, bullet speed, and everything is perfectly fine. But the reload time I think can use another second or two. The AC 20 should be for heavy pinpoint hole punching damage. Not Heavy alpha pin point ON TOP of DPS.

[wanderer]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

the ac20 from BT has no 'partial miss' factor.

Neither do lasers in TT, but then both of them hit -random locations- instead of being able to auto-focus all their damage to a single location when they hit, and aimed-shot with reasonable chances of hitting repeatedly in MWO to boot.

Thus, burst fire- which in TT, anything longer than a normal AC fired single-shot counts as anyway, AND even a normal AC can be split-fired between multiple hexes while dividing it's damage. Unless there's a magic ninja-slice trick that splits a single shell into two equal-damage halves, the standard AC fires a burst, and that's how AC's should work in MWO.

Anything else breaks the damage system. Again, an AC is delivering old-school MW pinpoint-frontloaded damage, and we already fixed lasers to adjust for how that was breaking the damage system. Now we need to do much the same for AC's and PPC's.

[Nick Makiaveli]

SpiralFace, on 16 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

I don't know about others, but I feel the main issue I have with the AC 20 isn't the 20 pinpoint damage (as that was its role even in the BG.) But the fact that it is hands down a weapon with nearly all benefits and no disadvantages beyond its range and projectile speed.

I mean, if you where to break down the things that you would consider "favorable" traits in this game, it usually breaks down to two things:

- pin point damage alphas,
- DPS.

I have no problem with an AC 40 being as powerful as it is in the pin point damage department, as its what the weapon is designed to do.

The thing that frustrates me is that its not enough that the AC 20 is the highest pinpoint damaging weapon in the game, but it is also the HIGHEST DPS weapon in the game as well. This means that in addition to having a weapon that already punches a hole bigger then anything else, Its DPS is also so high that no other weapon grouping can hope to compete with it.

I mean even if you take 4 ML's with the heatsinks to bring its heat load down to AC 20 levels, (Which actually leaves you with less crit spacing on the mech itself if those HS are doubles,) you have a weapon that does the same dps, but one that DOESN'T do pinpoint.

I feel like the AC 20 damage, range, bullet speed, and everything is perfectly fine. But the reload time I think can use another second or two. The AC 20 should be for heavy pinpoint hole punching damage. Not Heavy alpha pin point ON TOP of DPS.

I see your point, but there are other factors....

Such as ammo, and only 7 shots per ton. Where as the ML can keep shooting forever.

Placement is another, if you want the AC/20 protected by torso armor, kiss an XL goodbye. (may be an exception, not an expert on all mechs).

The Jager can only carry it in the arms, and those can be relatively easily blown off, ie torso twisting doesn't help any.

Also, if we both miss, you will get another shot before I do.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Yep, evertime i see AC40 i know i need to get rid of the arms

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 16 February 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Still waiting for your math though...

I gave you the math on it yesterday.

[SpiralFace]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 February 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

I see your point, but there are other factors....

Such as ammo, and only 7 shots per ton. Where as the ML can keep shooting forever.

Placement is another, if you want the AC/20 protected by torso armor, kiss an XL goodbye. (may be an exception, not an expert on all mechs).

The Jager can only carry it in the arms, and those can be relatively easily blown off, ie torso twisting doesn't help any.

Also, if we both miss, you will get another shot before I do.

Sure, but it doesn't make up for the fact that Heat will slam into you with ML's.

Lets just use a hypothetical example here:

2 mechs. One is equipped with a single AC 20, and 20 double engine heat sinks. The other equipped with 4 ML's, and 10 additional double heat sinks to make up the weight difference between the two weapons.

Because the two weapons have the same cool down time when you take into consideration the beam duration, lets look at what 4 salvos from both weapons look like from their heat profile:

AC 20:

(4 x 6 heat = 24 heat gained.) - ( 2 heat per second x 16 seconds= 32 heat dissipated) = -8 heat generated from continual weapon use.

4 ML's, 10 additional external heat sinks:

(4 x 4 heat x 4 weapons = 64 heat generated ) - ( 3.4 heat x 16 seconds = 54.4) = 9.6 heat generated from continual weapon use.

Lets also bear in mind that in order to equip the AC 20, you only need 10 slots and a single Ballistic hard point with 1 for each ammo bin you want to add.

Those 4 ML's plus 10 Double heat sinks? 34 slots, and 4 laser hard points. Needless to say, that you physically CAN'T even equip a load out that we where using in this example unless you use single heat sinks (which makes the heat profile even worse.)

Needless to say, the ammo is a SMALL consideration to look into when you see that it:

- Still gets you the best DPS in the game
- Gets you Pin point damage
- Allows you to shoot your weapons at a better then Heat Neutral state continually, which 4 ML's simply cannot ever do.
- Damage is front loaded, so you don't have to hold for a whole second to get the needed damage output.

Also, one other note. the Lasers cannot shoot before you. The cool down timer on the weapon only starts once the beam duration ends. So with a 1 second beam duration and a 3 second cool down, you are at the EXACT same reload time that you have for 4 ML's.

[Navy Sixes]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Wouldn't any well designed mech "take advantage" of new players that are clueless?

That was pretty much my point...

Tycho von Gagern, on 16 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

...they are no more a threat than any other heavy brawler in the game.

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

care to try the math on that one?

the STOCK loadout, on the shadow hawk has 26 armor, wich provides 52 protection to the side torso. That is without being able to increase it to a total of 42.

at 26 armor points you can take two rounds and still ahve 12 armor value left.

at 42 armor points you can take 8 rounds and still have 4 armor value left.

That means if someone has done there work properly on a mech and arent running stock they can take 4 full alphas from the jager into one torso section before dieing.

That means they have to hold still long enough, not torso twist...etc...etc... for you to land all your rounds there.

Then I don't get it sorry, are you hitting both ST or where you bad at math?

52 (max ST armor with 0 rear armor) + 26 (internal health) = 78 (total health) / 40 (1 alpha 2x AC20) = 2... not four or eight.

Edited by Nryrony, 16 February 2014 - 10:43 PM.

[YueFei]

Nryrony, on 16 February 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Then I don't get it sorry, are you hitting both ST or where you bad at math?

52 (max ST armor with 0 rear armor) + 26 (internal health) = 78 (total health) / 40 (1 alpha 2x AC20) = 2... not four or eight.

Maybe.... he's assuming you arm-tank and then shoulder-tank. Take 2 shots to the arm, lose the arm and lose 13 armor on the shoulder. Take another shot to the ST and lose armor and go into internals. Take a 4th shot and lose the ST, with some damage transferring to the CT. Then, assuming you manage to shoulder tank a bunch of AC/40 shots, you might even survive 4 more hits before dying. That'd be a total of 8xAC/40 alpha strikes.

Not easy to do. Maybe more feasible if you can get some distance, since AC20 projectile is so slow now.

For those interested, the math:
Shadowhawk arm: 36 armor / 18 internal = 54 total HP
Side Torso = 52 armor / 26 internal. If you front-load it with 42+ armor you can get 68+ HP.
Center Torso = 72 armor / 36 internal. If you front-load it with 62+ armor you can get 98+ HP.

You take 2xAC/20 to the arm, you have 14 HP left in the arm. Take another blast and you lose those 14 HP, the remaining 26 damage is reduced by 50% to 13 damage and transferred to the ST, which is now down to 29 armor. Take a 3rd blast and you're down to 15 internal HP in the ST. A 4th blast destroys your ST and 12.5 damage transfers to your CT, which now has 49.5 armor. A 5th blast, if you shoulder it, does 20 damage to CT, reducing it to 29.5 armor. A 6th blast takes your CT to 9.5 armor. The 7th hit takes you down to 25.5 internal HP. An 8th hit takes you to 5.5 internal HP. And the 9th blast kills you.... unless you manage to tank it with your fresh, healthy opposite side.

This is.... admittedly very theoretical. We would have to test the practical application...

[Nryrony]

YueFei, on 17 February 2014 - 02:03 AM, said:

Maybe.... he's assuming you arm-tank and then shoulder-tank.

I don't question your math and I agree.

Yet my point was that it takes 2 alphas to destroy a Shadowhawks ST or 2.5 if you go directly for the center. So far I have to assume I'm ... not wrong.

You came up with the same numbers as I did, however I was so "mad" to calculate with 0 rear armor for the ST - to make a point

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

That means if someone has done there work properly on a mech and arent running stock they can take 4 full alphas from the jager into one torso section before dieing.

And this makes me think Varent doesn't understand the calculations basics for armor and internal health...

Otherwise he was calculating vs an Atlas CT with full armor (and 0 rear armor 186 total ) ... and failed to mention it.

Edited by Nryrony, 17 February 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[YueFei]

Nryrony, on 17 February 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

I don't question your math and I agree.

Yet my point was that it takes 2 alphas to destroy a Shadowhawks ST or 2.5 if you go directly for the center. So far I have to assume I'm ... not wrong.

You came up with the same numbers as I did, however I was so "mad" to calculate with 0 rear armor for the ST - to make a point

Yeah and it's rare to be able to block all shots with your arm/shoulder. Miss blocking even 1 of those and your CT is seriously damaged. Like you said, 5 AC/20 rounds to the CT, or just 2.5 alphas from 2xAC/20, will kill a Shadowhawk.

Quote

And this makes me think Varent doesn't understand the calculations basics for armor and internal health...

Otherwise he was calculating vs an Atlas CT with full armor (and 0 rear armor 186 total ) ... and failed to mention it.

Yeah I'm not sure what he meant by "doubled". I figure he may have meant it's effectively "doubled" hitpoints because of 50% damage transfer.

I think we'll have to wait from him to come back into this thread to clarify what he meant.

[Sephlock]

Don't Shadow Hawks have superior speed and jump jets?

[Nryrony]

Sephlock, on 17 February 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

Don't Shadow Hawks have superior speed and jump jets?

Indeed this one does :>

But seriously, if you hit him in the back it won't help and at the first sight he should receive his first hit - before he can react.

Ofc he can twist and jump, but nothing forces you as Jager to fire until you get a clear shot. And running away from a Jager could be even deadlier.

I don't question that a good Shadowhawk might win this battle, but when both are ace pilots and the Shadowhawk somehow finds himself within 270m range, all alone, he won't stand much of a chance, no matter the config.

[YueFei]

Nryrony, on 17 February 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

Indeed this one does :>

But seriously, if you hit him in the back it won't help and at the first sight he should receive his first hit - before he can react.

Ofc he can twist and jump, but nothing forces you as Jager to fire until you get a clear shot. And running away from a Jager could be even deadlier.

I don't question that a good Shadowhawk might win this battle, but when both are ace pilots and the Shadowhawk somehow finds himself within 270m range, all alone, he won't stand much of a chance, no matter the config.

Well if the Jagermech pilot sneaks up and gets the first shot, he outplayed the Shadowhawk pilot and deserves to have the advantage, and in some situations to press that advantage for the kill.

Imagine the situation is reversed, though. The Shadowhawk sees the Jagermech coming at 500 meters away (thanks to his handy dandy jump jets which lets him see farther). And then dances at range out of effective reach of the AC/20's, kiting the Jagermech to death, using his knowledge of the terrain (hill climb restrictions) and the Jagermech's top speed to estimate the Jagermech's positioning even when he loses line of sight, etc.

[Nryrony]

YueFei, on 18 February 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

Well if the Jagermech pilot sneaks up and gets the first shot, he outplayed the Shadowhawk pilot and deserves to have the advantage, and in some situations to press that advantage for the kill.

Imagine the situation is reversed, though. The Shadowhawk sees the Jagermech coming at 500 meters away (thanks to his handy dandy jump jets which lets him see farther). And then dances at range out of effective reach of the AC/20's, kiting the Jagermech to death, using his knowledge of the terrain (hill climb restrictions) and the Jagermech's top speed to estimate the Jagermech's positioning even when he loses line of sight, etc.

Yes and no, I agree that the situation will be different if they meet each other at range, though dual AC20 will still hurt at 500m it will lose roughly half its dmg, and more importantly it will become less likely to focus dmg on a single spot.

However, unless the Jager walks into the open his enemy won't know whats around the next corner.

Since this game lacks actual scouting equipment (ACTIVE RADAR for example) scouting itself/knowing where the enemy is has become a dangerous task. Sending in a scout that's even more likely to die than the Shadowhawk doesn't really improve the situation.

This is the dilemma I'm talking about, and that is why if find the AC40 too strong, especially vs Scouts.

[Supersmacky]

Seems to me that reading all the posts by people talking about the AC/40 Jagermech being too overpowering make anecdotal references to support their position. For instance, Mech A finds itself alone surprised by an AC/40 Mech B (Jagermech) with 270m. Sounds a lot like a failure of Situation Awareness.

Lots of things happened to get to that point. At this stage in the engagement, Mech A already put itself in a bad position. Unless this is end game and the only two mechs on the map are Mech A and Mech B, how did Mech A find itself alone? Even if it is end game, why isn't the pilot communicating with his dead team mates to find out what's left?

In all likelihood the AC/40 Jager is very low on ammo at this point and has damage that makes him more vulnerable.

Regardless, even at the beginning of a match, an AC/40 Jager is either slow, carrying a small ammo load, sporting thin armor for its class, running an XL engine, or any combination of these. All of these work to the advantage or a faster, more agile mech.

If you're in a light/medium with good speed and possibly jump jets, yet you find yourself in a one on one with an AC/40 Jager and getting trashed, your doing it wrong.

I just say all this to say that there is no mech that can't be beat by any other mech on any given day. It's not the machine, it's the pilot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

At lower elo sure. At higher elo your a slow moving easily killed target. Nothing more.

Then the folks using them at higher Elo aren't using them right.

[Joseph Mallan]

SpiralFace, on 16 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

I don't know about others, but I feel the main issue I have with the AC 20 isn't the 20 pinpoint damage (as that was its role even in the BG.) But the fact that it is hands down a weapon with nearly all benefits and no disadvantages beyond its range and projectile speed.

I mean, if you where to break down the things that you would consider "favorable" traits in this game, it usually breaks down to two things:

- pin point damage alphas,
- DPS.

I have no problem with an AC 40 being as powerful as it is in the pin point damage department, as its what the weapon is designed to do.

The thing that frustrates me is that its not enough that the AC 20 is the highest pinpoint damaging weapon in the game, but it is also the HIGHEST DPS weapon in the game as well. This means that in addition to having a weapon that already punches a hole bigger then anything else, Its DPS is also so high that no other weapon grouping can hope to compete with it.

I mean even if you take 4 ML's with the heatsinks to bring its heat load down to AC 20 levels, (Which actually leaves you with less crit spacing on the mech itself if those HS are doubles,) you have a weapon that does the same dps, but one that DOESN'T do pinpoint.

I feel like the AC 20 damage, range, bullet speed, and everything is perfectly fine. But the reload time I think can use another second or two. The AC 20 should be for heavy pinpoint hole punching damage. Not Heavy alpha pin point ON TOP of DPS.

Doesn't it also make it the biggest 'all or nothing' weapon in the game as well? Every 4 seconds I either get 40 damage or goose eggs.

[Hastur Azargo]

So long as perfect accuracy and convergence exist in this game, there will be 30 - 40 pinpoint alphas lobbed around and all you can do about it is play carefully. This is sad but hey, at least Gauss and PPCs are desynced.

[Onlystolen]

Lubalin, on 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

2 shots from an AC40 Jagermech at like 500m and my atlas has lost 2/3 of its weapons.

This is way imbalanced.

When I bring 1 ac20 on a mech, getting kills is insanely easy due to such accurate damage. Anything comparable has serious downsides. 2 ppcs generate a ton of heat. 2 LL are tough to get pinpoint accuracy. And that's just comparable to a single ac20.

2x ac20 is out of control. 40 damage, pinpoint accuracy, that works at such a long range is way too much. A mech shouldn't be able to fire 2 at once so often without overheating.

Ac20 needs a more drastic range limitation and a huge heat penalty when firing more than 1.

Oh, and L2P, kill at range, don't get close, etc. is true, but tactics don't fix poor balance. Cheers.

Stay out of range, Problem solved Next thread please