58 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

He doesn't want a light to EVER be able to win a 1v1 against anything even 20 tons heavier. Not "brawling", not "flanking", not hit-and-run - NEVER.

And that's just wrong.

I think he meant that in terms of game mechanics that the player can't control. If you're a Light pilot that is top 1% of the top 1% and your Assault target is the bottom 1% of the bottom 1%, you should have no problem taking him because the skill cap is that great. BUT, if all things are equal (tech, skill, etc), then the heavier mech should not lose. This goes double for broken code. If I put an AC20, multiple Md Lasers, etc into a Spider, the damage should register and it should crumble. Losing out because the game either doesn't show the damage or the code simply prevents me from hitting it is wrong. And that is what Bishop is saying.

If you really want to see how bad HSR is, just firing some LRMs at a Locust, Mando, or Spider going 170 or any of the Lights going 150. They splash their legs and do little, if any, damage. SRMs are equally bad. And the in game coordination, even with the past changes made, still don't allow a lot of damage to connect on the Spider.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

And nobody's asking for them to be able to stand still in front of a heavy or assault and trade blows (and win!). But look at what Bishop said:


He doesn't want a light to EVER be able to win a 1v1 against anything even 20 tons heavier. Not "brawling", not "flanking", not hit-and-run - NEVER.

And that's just wrong.

Sorry Jobe, I thought the selective reading was for Epeen knuckledraggers like Vickers.

let's see, what was said was:
without a pack, or some seriously drawn out hit and run tactics, a Light Mech should NEVER be able to solo a Mech 20+ tons bigger.

Just a LITTLE bit different. Sorry the truth gets you ******** as a light pilot, but 1v1, on an even playing field, no a Commando should not be able to take out a Centurion, if skill levels are equal, without some serious hit and run tactics. Hit and run tactics is not running in circles ankle humping because HSR and other things are making a mech near invulnerable.If a Light can just pot anything larger than it, with impunity, there is no point to piloting anything larger, as Lights are far more flexible. Just because role warfare is not defined yet is no reason to push for broken mechanics.

FPS mentality is pretty much the dead opposite of role warfare, and thus, gamers will forever butt heads with the concept, despite the fact that in all but the most extreme skill disparity levels, a Recon unit does not beat a main Battle Unit. Go take a Bradley out, or whatever ultra light armor is available in WoT and tell me how well you fair against a Sherman.

If the skill level is disparate, if the tactics of the Light pilot is better, or there are weaknesses to exploit, yes, a Light should be Able to win, as I have said many times, and you know it. But if you think most Spider pilots out there are really "That good", and most people in this game can even spell tactics, let alone implement them, you've lost it.

We have often disagreed about Light and their role, but at least in the past you have been honest about it. To clip half a comment, then twist it? Disappointing, dude.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 October 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

If the skill level is disparate, if the tactics of the Light pilot is better, or there are weaknesses to exploit, yes, a Light should be Able to win, as I have said many times, and you know it. [...]

We have often disagreed about Light and their role, but at least in the past you have been honest about it. To clip half a comment, then twist it? Disappointing, dude.

And that's what I get for posting at work in between bouts of fighting C# and X++ code. I'm sorry Bishop, those words just didn't register on my caffeine-deprived brain, and I went into full tard mode.

I'll go edit (some of) my stupidity out of my posts now.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

You still haven't understood that MWO is a PvP game, Bishop?

One player - one 'mech. They have to be roughly equal in effectiveness, or there would be no point in taking anything but the best assault 'mech.

In TT assaults could be strictly better than lights; it was okay, because each player got a bunch of 'mechs of all weight classes. Not so in MWO; the player that drops in a light has as much right to have fun and influence the outcome of the match as the player that drops in an assault.

And since the most efficient way of influencing the outcome of a match is to kill the enemy 'mechs, the lights should have no artificial hindrance from doing so.

In short, this is not your daddy's BattleTech; stop pretending it is. MWO lights are killers, just like any other 'mech, because that's all there is to be.

Cool, so roles truly have no point, and the tenant this game was sold on is beyond dead. Because last I checked, Assaults? Kinda suck in Conquest. Not very good at Scouting. Heck, only the Victor is even very good at moving around to support a Battle line well. And Lone Lights greatly dread getting spotted by an Atlas wolfpack, because, everyone knows just how effective those Atlases will be at chasing that Jenner or Spider down, no matter how the Light tries to evade. And That Atlas trying to hide behind a rock to lase you with an ER Large? Oh so scary. Oh wait, when you shoot that Atlas, it REGISTERS damage, while the Spider doing so? Usually not.

This is PvP. It is also, supposedly Role warfare. And while the rewards system isn't great, there are a lot of things Lights do, that others don't do well. But toe to toe slugfest? That is supposed to be the purview of the Big Boys. So maybe, before trying to buff Lights any further, the idea is, lets fix the flipping code, see where they stand then, and also get CW and other modes in that further enhance roles. But following a broken concept at the here and now just because they have not implemented everything (yet, maybe never) just leads to more broken {Scrap} to fix and the future, and the current yo-yo bandaid state MWO have been in since the end of CB.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

And that's what I get for posting at work in between bouts of fighting C# and X++ code. I'm sorry Bishop, those words just didn't register on my caffeine-deprived brain, and I went into full tard mode.

I'll go edit (some of) my stupidity out of my posts now.

It's all good.

We disagree. We have, and probably will continue to, as I am seriously waiting for Role warfare to actually give fully fleshed out roles beside TDM. ATM though, being TDM under 2 different names, I can see where as a Light Pilot you want to kill and smash, trading armor for speed and such. The vision this game was sold on though was supposed to be more in depth than that.

I want all chassis not just viable, but optimal, it's just to my mind, that does not always include straight combat effectiveness. I want Light pilots to have a reason to actually scout, hide and TAG for a LRM lance, Narc stuff when it's back is turned, etc. And yes, to use their speed to course and bring down wounded bigger mechs.

IMO, a light should get credited with half the XP and Cills for damage done to a mech he is Tagging for LRMs, or that he has planted a NARC on. He should get some type of compensation for any hits landed on mechs revealed by a UAV they had the eggs to launch in the middle of the baddies, and other things to allow him to achieve similar cbill and xp rewards for what a Heavy gets for shooting things. There need to be multipliers for rewards based on mech class to encourage each class to actually do different things beside shoot.

Right now, I probably am speaking out of a degree of frustration myself, between the resurgence of CapWarrior ("derp derp, defend your base" vs, Oh, I'm sorry, I thought I logged on to shoot stompy robots. Have fun with standing in a red box. Sounds exciting. It's great as an option that allows a nearly defeated force one last gasp for a win, but when the team just makes an immediate bee line for the Cap? It's all yours. At HARDCorp, we generally don't even bother to stop base caps. We came to fight, if you came to cap, have fun with that, and we'll let the match end to drop against someone who actually has balls next match) and the huge number of Wolfpacks seeming to be the new metarape (and curiously notice a lot of Spider pilots with seriously high pings still.) I'm not feeling very sympathetic to Lights. And it's a trifle unfair attitude, especially to guys like you that have always been running Lights, whether the the cards were stacked against you, or in your favor.

Just was kinda shocked to see you apparently turning to the vitriolic BS stuff the trolls use. Glad we just had a mis-connect.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 October 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Bront]

SuperNobody, on 21 October 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I've never understood why convergence is based off of where my reticle is pointed rather than the distance to the enemy mech that I have targeted.

If I have nothing targeted, then obviously it would be where the reticle is pointed, but if I have a mech targeted it should be set to that distance. If it's based on reticle location only then all ballistics are negatively affected as you almost always have to lead a target moving horizontally across your field of view, and therefore you reticle will not actually be on the target.

In theory, it's because you might be targeting a different mech while having one targeted, but I think that's the penalty you should pay for not targeting the correct mech.

[Ryebear]

A light can kill a medium, heavy or assault in 1 vs 1, but generally they only get one or two mistakes before they are dead and either have to run, or die.

But the second you make it a 2+ vs 2+, the likelihood of success plummets. Its much harder to force a win with two lights vs any two other weight classes because on top of the lower fire power protracting the battle, you have two different sources of damage to cripple you very quickly. Sure you can sow discord and waste their time (light chasing), but the odds of killing go way down.

And given that mechs of similar weight classes often have similar speeds, there is a much higher chance of facing multiple opponents at once since they will likely have support near-by. Using 1 vs 1 as the basis of an argument over weight class effectiveness in a 12 vs 12 game is just flawed.

That said, convergence *is* an issue, and that is what the OP is getting at. Having convergence keyed into the targets distance is a much better way of dealing with the issue of killing difficult to hit lights.

[El Moosechacho]

had a spider come straight at me from 200m IN A STRAIGHT LINE yesterday. I was in an ac40 jaeger and fired off 8 rounds and they went THROUGH him. What you describe makes a lot of sense, but those shells are huge and I don't see how they wouldn't wing him even if i was aiming center torso.

[BUDFORCE]

I support this thread. Thanks original poster.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 October 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

We disagree. We have, and probably will continue to, as I am seriously waiting for Role warfare to actually give fully fleshed out roles beside TDM. ATM though, being TDM under 2 different names, I can see where as a Light Pilot you want to kill and smash, trading armor for speed and such. The vision this game was sold on though was supposed to be more in depth than that.

I don't think we disagree all that much on that. Other things, sure; keeps things interesting when you don't agree on everything. But at what should be in the game we were both enticed enough with to plunk down $120 last year, not so much. I want that game too.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 October 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I want all chassis not just viable, but optimal, it's just to my mind, that does not always include straight combat effectiveness. I want Light pilots to have a reason to actually scout, hide and TAG for a LRM lance, Narc stuff when it's back is turned, etc. And yes, to use their speed to course and bring down wounded bigger mechs.

IMO, a light should get credited with half the XP and Cills for damage done to a mech he is Tagging for LRMs, or that he has planted a NARC on. He should get some type of compensation for any hits landed on mechs revealed by a UAV they had the eggs to launch in the middle of the baddies, and other things to allow him to achieve similar cbill and xp rewards for what a Heavy gets for shooting things. There need to be multipliers for rewards based on mech class to encourage each class to actually do different things beside shoot.

Give me a few buttons to quickly report 'mech locations to my team, and a small CB and/or XP reward for doing so on a contact that's been out of sight for a short period of time or moved a short distance and you'd be getting the best scouting you could ever wish for. I'd be all over the enemy, reporting their every move and having a blast doing it.

Give me half the rewards for a kill if I manage to hold the target with TAG or NARC, or even just keeping it targeted for LRMs and you'd have perfect indirect markers throughout the match - and I'd do it gladly.

But we have none of that, all we have is "do as much damage as you can and hope for some kills and assists" - and in that game, lights need to be able to take out any other weight class one-on-one. It doesn't have to be easy or fast, but it needs to stay possible, or there's no reason for lights to exist at all.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 October 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Just was kinda shocked to see you apparently turning to the vitriolic BS stuff the trolls use. Glad we just had a mis-connect.

Yeah, that's what I get for trying to sneak a few posts in at work while I should be programming. My bad, as I said, and happy to have it sorted.

Edited by stjobe, 22 October 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Mehlan]

..anyone every paid attention to 'spotting' bonus too? It's not if you target the mech first, lord knows I've gotten em in radar range and highlighted several, before being spotted and before my team was near.... and got squat, but I can be in combat and a mech wanders into 300-500 meters visual range, ive got LoS and apparently no one else does...then I get the spotting bonus. That's BORKED.

[stjobe]

Mehlan, on 22 October 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

..anyone every paid attention to 'spotting' bonus too? It's not if you target the mech first, lord knows I've gotten em in radar range and highlighted several, before being spotted and before my team was near.... and got squat, but I can be in combat and a mech wanders into 300-500 meters visual range, ive got LoS and apparently no one else does...then I get the spotting bonus. That's BORKED.

Some things about that spotting bonus:

* You can only get it once for every enemy...
* ... for every team mate that fires missiles on that enemy.

So if team mate A hasn't fired on enemy P before, and you target P while it's un-targeted (the "first to target" thing seems to mean "nobody else was targeting it at the time", not "nobody ever targeted it before"), and keep it targeted from firing to impact, you get the bonus.

Theoretically, it should be possible to get 132 spotting bonuses: one for every 11 team mates once each on all 12 enemies. That would be 3,300 XP and 145,200 CB...

In practice though, I'm lucky to get a handful.

Edited by stjobe, 22 October 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[aniviron]

Mehlan, on 22 October 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

Great now go find the video using the same weapon showing where the spider does take damage, and the one with it showing a jenner absorbing damage on an arm(ie: hits, but no damage shown)...and then tell us again why/how it's spider specific.

That's the point though; there are other videos showing this exact same bug with lasers and ballistics as well dating back months, always in the exact same spot. There are no videos of spiders taking damage in that spot, because spiders don't take damage in that spot.

I can't say about Jenners not taking arm damage; haven't looked into it, because I don't aim for their arms, I shoot off the big, easy-to-hit CT and that dies just fine. If you want to make fixing the Jenner's arm your crusade, go ahead.

[C E Dwyer]

Impossible to hit nope, tell that to the two that thought they could mug my ac20 victor, 4ac20 shots, afew ml blasts and both gone, the second was a glorious head shot.

Saying impossible means that someone is exagerating to prove a point and they invalidating any concerns about broken mechanics or hit boxes, because they do get squashed

[FearTheAmish]

screw it buying a spider tonight... cant beatem might as well join them.

[Mehlan]

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

That's the point though; there are other videos showing this exact same bug with lasers and ballistics as well dating back months, always in the exact same spot. There are no videos of spiders taking damage in that spot, because spiders don't take damage in that spot.

No Videos?
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=QQmU7qntUsQ
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=nxeNoSHhPoI
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=_FwyyM69tzs

Edited by Mehlan, 22 October 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Mike Oakenwall - the khadoran]

Iv unloaded 3 rounds of 8 streaks and armor is hardly even damaged at times. Something is wrong with spiders.

Edited by deanon, 22 October 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Fooooo, on 22 October 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

(I go by when the indicator/aimer turns red...meaning the server told me a hit has been registered afaik).

The flashing cursor is generated by your client, not the server. The slower to update paper doll is updated by the server and is the only true indicator of whether you did damage.

So when people say "I hit him but the paper doll showed no damage!" what they are really saying is "I didn't hit him."

Bishop Steiner, on 22 October 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Sorry Jobe, I thought the selective reading was for Epeen knuckledraggers like Vickers.

Says the troll getting solo'd regularly by spiders while in his 40-100 million C-bill Atlas? I'm not the guy throwing around outlandish exaggerations and insults along with out right misinformation. Please tell us knuckle dragging kiddies who can't spell "tactics" which assault you own that costs 100 million C-bills?


The truth is that light mechs cost just as much as assault mechs.

The truth is that light mechs ARE NOT regularly killing assault pilots 1v1 and that assault needs a hell of a lot less skill to kill that light.

Let's break this hypothetical situation down. Assault mech gets caught alone with no support for a few minutes, because a few minutes is realistically the amount of time it takes a light mech to kill an assault mech. BAD ASSAULT PILOT, small engine, poor situational awareness, or some kind of LRM boat/sniper.

Assault mech can't land any of the very few shots he needs to land on the light. BAD ASSAULT PILOT, small engine, locked arms, inability to lead shots, doesn't understand convergence, brings only weapons that cannot fire at close range, doesn't know how to do a ballerina turn to make up for slow turning ability, runs full speed ahead because he doesn't know that speed and turning ability are linked, hasn't figured out that the red flashing reticle does not mean he has hit.

During this time the light mech has to avoid the assaults weapons and terrain, as well as the assault mech itself because those of us with good ping actually run into mechs instead of warping past them, while adjusting his speed and turn in order to either stay entirely behind the assault mech or cut close to the asssault mech when he passes in front. He has to aim his weapons while moving at high speed for dozens of volleys at hopefully the same spot as any splash damage is wasted damage since you have to bore through an assaults armor. One or two mistakes and he's dead.


The common situation where a light mech kills an assault mech is when the assault mech, while engaging many other targets happens to have have the last shot landed on him by a light mech, if it's a spider or even worse, a spider with machine guns the assault pilot is obligated to say something like "MGs are OP!" or "I'll be so happy when they fix spider hit boxes" thus showing his utter ignorance of game mechanics or any sense of balance.


The common situation where an assault mech kills a light mech? Assault pilot sees light mech, assault pilot knows how to aim, dead light mech.

How do I know this? Because I commonly kill 2,3,4 light mechs in a match. I either kill or run off the light mechs that sometimes catch me solo. I also don't blame it on "light mechs," "spider hit boxes," or "HSR," when 2,3,4 mechs kill me. You also won't see me blaming my "team," "Elo," "weight imbalance with the matchmaker," or any of the other ridiculous excuses people give for why it is not their fault they died.

I DO NOT commonly kill 3,4,5 assault mechs 1v1 in a match. It just doesn't happen unless they are terribad and somehow you were able to find them all alone and at full health for some reason in a 15 minute match and were able to keep them alone for the extraordinary amount of time it takes to kill them.



People keep calling for a nerf to lights. You say that, given equal skill a light mech should not win vs an assault/heavy/medium. That is already the case.

What you are talking about is unequal skill. If a light mech solos an assault/heavy the light mech pilot was better. I won't say all mediums because most of them are not very well balanced right now.

deanon, on 22 October 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Iv unloaded 3 rounds of 8 streaks and armor is hardly even damaged at times. Something is wrong with spiders.

Video please.

[aniviron]

Mehlan, on 22 October 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

No Videos?
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=QQmU7qntUsQ
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=nxeNoSHhPoI
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=_FwyyM69tzs

Well, those first three aren't videos, and as I already covered in my post, there's nothing wrong with many parts of the spider hitbox; but if you actually went in and tried aiming at the same spot I did between the center and side torso, you would also fail to hit the spider. Your strawman of my argument is that I said, "No shots ever hit the spider!" I did not and do not claim this. I do, however, claim that there is a hole in the spider's hitbox that can be reliably targeted in which no damage lands. It's not a huge spot, but it's in the middle of the mech; and enough shots land near there that I suspect it has something to do with why more shots dud on a spider than on other mechs.

[Mehlan]

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Well, those first three aren't videos, and as I already covered in my post, there's nothing wrong with many parts of the spider hitbox; but if you actually went in and tried aiming at the same spot I did between the center and side torso, you would also fail to hit the spider. Your strawman of my argument is that I said, "No shots ever hit the spider!" I did not and do not claim this. I do, however, claim that there is a hole in the spider's hitbox that can be reliably targeted in which no damage lands. It's not a huge spot, but it's in the middle of the mech; and enough shots land near there that I suspect it has something to do with why more shots dud on a spider than on other mechs.

they're videos, system it just having problems with the links.... the 'hole' your referring to, is based on a video that I believe is well over a month old. In fact, we've already covered this before in another thread...

Let's see if those links work now...

Edited by Mehlan, 23 October 2013 - 12:28 AM.