440 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Ed Steele, on 28 October 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...er/page__st__20


On page 2 PGI confirms that indestructible Spider hit boxes are a "beautiful find".

As someone else stated here, been fixed already a patch or two ago. The spider does not have this hole anymore. The problem is in HSR and Hit Detection/registration now. It effects all mechs, but effects smaller mechs more often. The Spider is the smallest and thinnest mech in the game, so it gets effected the most from this.

I am not saying that there might be a problem with the spider, but till HSR and Hit Detection are fixes, we can not accurately see if there is a problem with the spider. Right now, I see many of my PPC shots hit and not even register as damage (usually when I quickly chain fire them one after the other, the second one hits but seems to do no damage). And yes, I am outside the 90m range for the PPCs, before you even begin to ask.

[Voidcrafter]

HSR blah blah - yea, but you know what?
I have no issues with hitting any of the other mechs with my weapon.
Yep - just *SOME*times I get a clear hit with no damage.
"Well designed"? You kiddin me?
3!!!!!!
3!!!!!!!! times in a row with AC20.
Hit but no hit.
Btw that was in the same game I killed 3 other light mechs by using the same aim/strategy/whatever, AFTER another spider took another 2!!!! rounds of my AC without registering any damage at all.
If that's your deffinition for "well designed" I'm kinda sad that you aint an architect...

And what I described is not a damn exception - almost every game there's spider in it, when I face it it just soaks my trajectory rounds - would it be missiles, (U)AC5s, AC10s - it just doesn't matter.
Why is an issue?
Cause only spider do it that often - thats why.
Now and then a hit fails to register - ok, cool - I can live with that, even though I'm punished for the fact the game has something broken in it with 4 secs CD and some amount of hit + 1 shot of my precious ammo.
But a spider?
It's a mech that I got like... 10 secs to kill before things get ugly and you know what?
I SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL THE DAMNED THING IN 10 SECS AS A REWARD FOR MY GOOD AIM BEING ABLE TO TRACK THAT FAST MECH WITH AC20s!
And certainly not the other way around you know?
Cause not only it takes skill, time, ammo, heat punishment to do so, but IT SHOULD BE WORKING.
Now what, you're telling me again that's a well design?
Well I don't mind your atlai DDC to miss me 3 times in a row with both his AC20 and his missiles.
The same goes for your boom jagger - 3 times not registering his(with his both AC20s) on my cored cataphract.
Or your flavor-of-the-month highlander - 3 times not registering his dual PPC AC20(or 2xUAC5s on doble tap) hits, while I'm getting from 300m to 40m away from him.
What about a Splatcat alphas(well... rare sight nowadays)? Can it too not register 3 alphas for me? Pretty please?
Oh yea - I totally forgot about the dual gauss builds - can those too miss me now and and then cause of the "good design"? I mean... probably they'll be sad you know - that charge up time and stuff - but what the hell - let we all follow the "well design" of the spiders and apply it to the whole game.
Maybe then those few pepole wanting to play laserwarrior online would finally be happy - since they'll be no sense in using any other weapon at all.
You see my point now?
And the absence of one in the claims of this being a good design?
If not well.. I don't have much else to say...

Edited by Voidcrafter, 05 November 2013 - 03:23 AM.

[William Mountbank]

Yeah, time to death should just be a factor of mech size. People who pilot light mechs are just earning the cash to move up weight classes anyway, they're practically NPCs and we should be stomping them the way we did back in MW2!

[Voidcrafter]

William Mountbank, on 05 November 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Yeah, time to death should just be a factor of mech size. People who pilot light mechs are just earning the cash to move up weight classes anyway, they're practically NPCs and we should be stomping them the way we did back in MW2!

Well you see buddy... they don't seem to know that little detail
Cause right now spiders engage you with their fully awarness of their bugged state - that's why they're so bold.
And that's why I take so much pleasure in punishing them - even bugged, even if their deflective field absorbs 3 rounds of AC20 in a row, I know some of the shots will hit them eventually and they'll feel the pain with their shaken self-confidence.
There is no skill or challenge in that though - it's just stupid.

[Tesunie]

Voidcrafter, on 05 November 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

HSR blah blah - yea, but you know what? I have no issues with hitting any of the other mechs with my weapon. Yep - just *SOME*times I get a clear hit with no damage. "Well designed"? You kiddin me? 3!!!!!! 3!!!!!!!! times in a row with AC20.

Spoiler

Hit but no hit. Btw that was in the same game I killed 3 other light mechs by using the same aim/strategy/whatever, AFTER another spider took another 2!!!! rounds of my AC without registering any damage at all. If that's your deffinition for "well designed" I'm kinda sad that you aint an architect... And what I described is not a damn exception - almost every game there's spider in it, when I face it it just soaks my trajectory rounds - would it be missiles, (U)AC5s, AC10s - it just doesn't matter. Why is an issue? Cause only spider do it that often - thats why. Now and then a hit fails to register - ok, cool - I can live with that, even though I'm punished for the fact the game has something broken in it with 4 secs CD and some amount of hit + 1 shot of my precious ammo. But a spider? It's a mech that I got like... 10 secs to kill before things get ugly and you know what? I SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL THE DAMNED THING IN 10 SECS AS A REWARD FOR MY GOOD AIM BEING ABLE TO TRACK THAT FAST MECH WITH AC20s! And certainly not the other way around you know? Cause not only it takes skill, time, ammo, heat punishment to do so, but IT SHOULD BE WORKING. Now what, you're telling me again that's a well design? Well I don't mind your atlai DDC to miss me 3 times in a row with both his AC20 and his missiles. The same goes for your boom jagger - 3 times not registering his(with his both AC20s) on my cored cataphract. Or your flavor-of-the-month highlander - 3 times not registering his dual PPC AC20(or 2xUAC5s on doble tap) hits, while I'm getting from 300m to 40m away from him. What about a Splatcat alphas(well... rare sight nowadays)? Can it too not register 3 alphas for me? Pretty please? Oh yea - I totally forgot about the dual gauss builds - can those too miss me now and and then cause of the "good design"? I mean... probably they'll be sad you know - that charge up time and stuff - but what the hell - let we all follow the "well design" of the spiders and apply it to the whole game. Maybe then those few pepole wanting to play laserwarrior online would finally be happy - since they'll be no sense in using any other weapon at all. You see my point now? And the absence of one in the claims of this being a good design? If not well.. I don't have much else to say...

And I sunk several AC20 rounds into a stationary Jenner...
And I've unloaded 300+ LRM rounds in a slow moving Atlas who already was orange Internal CT, and he lived...
And I've placed 3 Med Lasers and a Large pulse several times into a Cataphrat's Red Internals Rear CT...
And I've shot 3 SSRM2 launchers repetitively at a Locust, and it still had yellow armor as it's worse damage... and it killed me instead... (SHadowhawk)
And I've been rear shot from the front so many times with my Locust, I lost count...

And I've seen an AC round kill me by going through a hill... (Thunderbolt, among other mechs.)
And I've had a Gauss round go through the rear of my mech and kill my Cockpit from the inside, ignoring my head armor... (Cicada.)
I've had my mech get shaken by damage, but never took it (all mechs).

This is not JUST a Spider problem. It is a Hit Registry/Detection and HSR problem. All weapon types are not registering damage properly. The Spider is just showing the most problems due to it being the smallest in size (really thin all around). This makes it so that any "Pass through Object" bug will affect it more, as there is less time that the object will travel through it. So, say, an object becomes "intangible" for half a second, that's enough time to get all the way through the Spider, where as an Atlas or Stalker (Or Locust), it might become "Tangible" again half way through, and then hit somewhere still.

If it is "Just the Spider" with this problem, prove it. Show me that it never happens to other mechs in the game. My own testing says it isn't "just" a Spider problem, but a problem effecting all mechs.

(Edit: For the record, I'm not saying that the Spider might not have an additional problem on top of the generalize problem, but we can't tell right now as the general HSR/Hit Reg problem is hiding this, if it is there. I'm just advocating fixing the big general problems, then see if the Spider still has a problem.)

William Mountbank, on 05 November 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Yeah, time to death should just be a factor of mech size. People who pilot light mechs are just earning the cash to move up weight classes anyway, they're practically NPCs and we should be stomping them the way we did back in MW2!

Some of us like piloting light mechs. Light mechs are viable, and always has been. In MW2, I played a Jenner all the time, and did very well in it (single player only I will admit). MW4, me and my brother played Shadowcats to very good effect in PvP. Just saying that mech size/weight doesn't restrict it's usefulness. It just takes a different set of skills and tactics.

Edited by Tesunie, 05 November 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

I read a thing that said hitbox changes were coming

[Krivvan]

Captain Stiffy, on 05 November 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I read a thing that said hitbox changes were coming

To the distribution. As in changing where the damage goes for a shot that hits. Not for when the shot fails to register damage.

[Sable Dove]

Krivvan, on 05 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

To the distribution. As in changing where the damage goes for a shot that hits. Not for when the shot fails to register damage.

Part of it is probably also that certain hitboxes (for destroyed arms, generally) do not transfer damage to the proper component. Testing numerous mechs, the worst offender was probably the Jagermech, where shooting even non-destroyed arms often dealt damage to the CT or opposite ST. The Cicada too, saw hitting the destroyed arms split about a third between damaging the correct side torso, and a third each dealing unreduced damage to the CT or opposite ST.

Almost all small mechs, and most medium-sized mechs I tested suffer from this. Spider has the largest hitboxes for its destroyed arms of any light (Commando actually appears to have no hitboxes at all for destroyed arms).

Plus, expanding the leg hitboxes into the pelvic area, as they should be. I hope they don't do a repeat of the Raven, where they make the leg hitboxes huge, then fix HSR and don't undo the change, which would make it ridiculously easy to leg them.

[Dirus Nigh]

While I have seen some hit detection issues when shooting other mechs. The spider stands out as being the most problematic. I interpret this as the spider hit boxes being wonky, and hit detection issues in general coming together.

Unfortunately when I use my locust, and jenner hit detection seems to work just fine.

[sokitumi]

It's bad and inefficient server code, amplified by the tinyness of that chasis, and probably some bad hitboxes mixed in to boot. Funny how pgi thought server authenticated bullets were necessary to catch hacks, and settled on a process that's just not good for a shooting game. Obviously bad server code is obvious. Especially lately, been getting way more rubberbanding in this game than my 35 -70ping could possibly justify.

[William Mountbank]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Some of us like piloting light mechs. Light mechs are viable, and always has been. Just saying that mech size/weight doesn't restrict it's usefulness. It just takes a different set of skills and tactics.

Sorry, I had hoped my post was silly enough to tell it was sarcastic! I actually believe the complete opposite of what I posted, but was mirroring what a lot of people post in these Spider whine threads.

[Jack Spade Ward]

One way to end all this Over-Powered-indestructible Spider problem/bugs is to enlarge the mech! Its heavier than a commando, so why not a bigger / large figure?
The truth is that when the spider appeared, it was killable like any other light mech should be. Then out of a sudden, it turns to be the best, toughest mech on the game!
Really small figure, biggest jump capability, really fast (150 / 170 kph), ECM, the mech with the poorest hit reg, makes it the most Overpowered mech on the game.
Compared it to the locust... or any other light for that matter...

So yes, the mech is broken, there are video evidences, the hit reg may be a MWO problem, but no other mech gets this exploit so hard like the spider...
Not more to say... really...
And to all the spider pilots / fanatics, your cause to defend the spider is an uphill battle, it simply cannot be defended. So please, stop inventing excuses or try to make people to agree with you, we all know the truth about the spider

[Corwin Vickers]

Those of us who have good computers and good connections do not suffer from your problems. The spider hits boxes are fine. I destroy them regularly. Whether in a light mech or an assault mech. Spiders are not a problem.

Other people like me, i.e. people who can aim and have good connections actually know that spiders are severely underpowered. Even their optimal shape (tall, not wide) is not enough to save them from my aim.

I do this with all weapons (except SRMs, I don't exepct SRMs to damage anything when I shoot them, thus I am not disappointed when they don't.)

People who see me in game know that I pilot assaults a majority of the time so some kind of spider bias is silly.

The truth is lights and mediums are FAR inferior to heavies and assaults. With little to no weight matching atm there is no reason not to stick the biggest engine in a very heavy mech, efficiency be damned. You do not suffer and neither does your team.


The numbers show my interpretation to be true. Light mechs are the least played class in MWO followed by mediums.

If lights were truly OVER POWERED then they would be played. They are not, thus you are just bad.

Also Spiders are not the most played light, Jenners are, thus Spiders are not over powered nor are they they "best" light.

Voidcrafter, on 05 November 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Well designed"? You kiddin me?
3!!!!!!
3!!!!!!!! times in a row with AC20.
Hit but no hit.
Btw that was in the same game I killed 3 other light mechs by using the same aim/strategy/whatever, AFTER another spider took another 2!!!! rounds of my AC without registering any damage at all.

I bet you kept putting your rounds in that same spot, absolutely convinced that you were right and the server was wrong and that if only you kept missing some more eventually the server would agree with you.

You really showed the internet!

PGI cannot fix your connection or your opponents connection so you must simply L2P. We all have to play under the same circumstances. Deal with it.

Until there are regional servers, they start kicking people with bad connections, or people get better pings and less packetloss this is how it's going to be. The only other thing PGI can do is say "we'll give it to you even though you missed." Wouldn't that be fun. Then you really will be as good as you think you are, except not really

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

It's bad and inefficient server code, amplified by the tinyness of that chasis, and probably some bad hitboxes mixed in to boot. Funny how pgi thought server authenticated bullets were necessary to catch hacks, and settled on a process that's just not good for a shooting game. Obviously bad server code is obvious. Especially lately, been getting way more rubberbanding in this game than my 35 -70ping could possibly justify.

That rubber banding happens when you run into people with bad ping. I think if you run into someone else with 35 ping you will both see pretty clearly what's really happening.

Edited by Corwin Vickers, 05 November 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[Voidcrafter]

Tesunie, on 05 November 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

And I sunk several AC20 rounds into a stationary Jenner...
And I've unloaded 300+ LRM rounds in a slow moving Atlas who already was orange Internal CT, and he lived...
And I've placed 3 Med Lasers and a Large pulse several times into a Cataphrat's Red Internals Rear CT...
And I've shot 3 SSRM2 launchers repetitively at a Locust, and it still had yellow armor as it's worse damage... and it killed me instead... (SHadowhawk)
And I've been rear shot from the front so many times with my Locust, I lost count...

And I've seen an AC round kill me by going through a hill... (Thunderbolt, among other mechs.)
And I've had a Gauss round go through the rear of my mech and kill my Cockpit from the inside, ignoring my head armor... (Cicada.)
I've had my mech get shaken by damage, but never took it (all mechs).

This is not JUST a Spider problem. It is a Hit Registry/Detection and HSR problem. All weapon types are not registering damage properly. The Spider is just showing the most problems due to it being the smallest in size (really thin all around). This makes it so that any "Pass through Object" bug will affect it more, as there is less time that the object will travel through it. So, say, an object becomes "intangible" for half a second, that's enough time to get all the way through the Spider, where as an Atlas or Stalker (Or Locust), it might become "Tangible" again half way through, and then hit somewhere still.

If it is "Just the Spider" with this problem, prove it. Show me that it never happens to other mechs in the game. My own testing says it isn't "just" a Spider problem, but a problem effecting all mechs.

(Edit: For the record, I'm not saying that the Spider might not have an additional problem on top of the generalize problem, but we can't tell right now as the general HSR/Hit Reg problem is hiding this, if it is there. I'm just advocating fixing the big general problems, then see if the Spider still has a problem.)



Some of us like piloting light mechs. Light mechs are viable, and always has been. In MW2, I played a Jenner all the time, and did very well in it (single player only I will admit). MW4, me and my brother played Shadowcats to very good effect in PvP. Just saying that mech size/weight doesn't restrict it's usefulness. It just takes a different set of skills and tactics.

I agree with you on the most part, but still - it's something that happens only when I shoot at spiders, so even if you're right in my view it's not exactly as you say.
Though I agree again - PPCs, that are were nerfed to oblivion, are having some really big hit detection issues and more often too - but then again you can keep one eye closed for it - it consumes no ammo.
Then again it's situational - if the game failed to register exactly that shot you aimed in the red cored CT of exactly that mech 100m away from you going your direction... well... no one would be happy would it?

Corwin Vickers, on 05 November 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

.....
I bet you kept putting your rounds in that same spot, absolutely convinced that you were right and the server was wrong and that if only you kept missing some more eventually the server would agree with you.

You really showed the internet!

PGI cannot fix your connection or your opponents connection so you must simply L2P. We all have to play under the same circumstances. Deal with it.

Oooh sorry you skilled polotey... And hell yea I'm sure that I'm right and my internet was perfect. And I'm not about to go deeper in it - I will only say that ORDINARY I can download from wherever with about 3/4 MEGABYTES per second. In a bad case scenario.
http://www.speedtest...sult/3082217347
(For people that don't bother 46.70 megabits per sec download, 7.05 megabits upload)
And yea - my upload speed is *only* ~1 megabyte per sec which is kinda... you know... enough for whatever.
It should be. It MUST be.
I can run another test - for any location you name actually - my country, as crappy as it is, was in the top ten(it was in the top 3 at some point) countries over the world with the best internet connection. And I live in the capital city of it - I am using the best provider in our country.

So it's not my computer problem, it's not an internet problem. And it occurs only for spiders - are you still following?
And don't try to put "MY" skill in this, cause you probably haven't see the way I play the game alright?
Tbh actually when I get home tired from work I'm mostly bad, but still I can hit a damn light mech on the move with AC20 and clearly see when it should've hit it - I'm not THAT bad.

Most of the spider pilots that I've faced know about that deflection shield - I don't know if it's a lag(on their side) issue, cause I've been spectating few lights and noticed that some of them seems to intentionally(so it seemed) lag their connection - if you sum up that with the speed - it could be.
I don't know if it's something else.
The problem exists and that's that.
That's why we're on the 7th page of one of those topics right now.

[William Mountbank]

For the last week my impression is that in all my matches Shadowhawks have had some kind of major rubber banding problem. Either the enemy Shadowhawk vanishes as soon as I fire, to reappear later off to one side, or the friendly Shadowhawk I'm trying to help switches places with the Cicada circle strafing him so that all my well aimed shots magically become friendly fire.
This all happened with a 135ms euro ping on a 20Mb DSL.

Is this a problem with Shadowhawks? No.

Should I make it a quest to start a bunch of stupid threads calling for PGI to nerf the Shadowhawk? Well, I don't drive one, so sure!

[Karazyr]

Ive noticed in this latest patch my spider seems to be taking more damage, i cant skip over the battle field pew pewing i have to use the tricks i learned way back to survive now dark days indeed.


im kinda relived i now take damage properly means i can use the terrain to my advantage and blind people with my exhaust

[Krivvan]

Spadejack, on 05 November 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

And to all the spider pilots / fanatics, your cause to defend the spider is an uphill battle, it simply cannot be defended. So please, stop inventing excuses or try to make people to agree with you, we all know the truth about the spider

Almost everyone who says Spiders aren't good (whether because they're fine or because even with hit detection problems they're still terrible) aren't Spider pilots. They're Light pilots who pilot Jenners and Ravens.

Derrpy, on 06 November 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Ive noticed in this latest patch my spider seems to be taking more damage, i cant skip over the battle field pew pewing i have to use the tricks i learned way back to survive now dark days indeed.

Nothing should have changed this patch in regards to Spiders taking damage.

[Mehlan]

Has PGI state they have fixed/resolved the issue in which ballistic weapons are not properly allocating hit/damage? Presuming no, then there is one of your 'issues' with not doing damage with the AC20 Void. Whine less, research more.

[sokitumi]

Corwin Vickers, on 05 November 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

That rubber banding happens when you run into people with bad ping. I think if you run into someone else with 35 ping you will both see pretty clearly what's really happening.

Probably a large part of it is as you say. But there are straight up hiccups too, like the lag burst within the 1st min of every match. And that ping diferential doesn't get them off the hook for not having quality code to compensate for it, as 9/10 other FPS's do. It's more an excuse than a reason tbh. For a game that is 100% pvp and attempting to be an e-sports platform, this is mission critical.

[Dimento Graven]

Sable Dove, on 20 October 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

So the one Spider-specific test that was done with hit detection isn't reproducable anymore, which would imply that the issue was resolved, and what the problem is is just hit detection in general.

Of course, anyone who plays the game knows that Spiders are way tougher than they should be. So they must be bugged, right? Nope. The only unfair thing it has going for it is the sloppy hit detection that all mechs can get (though it is affected slightly more because it's so small).

So what gives? What makes the Spider special? It's all in the design. The Spider is not just small; it has very thin legs (that are also fairly close together which makes it easier to protect one leg), and it's a very vertical design - it doesn't have a long or wide body like the other lights; it has articulated arms that will protect the torso from at least some of the fire coming at it; and it has well-divided hitboxes that make it near impossible to target a specific component on the torso.


Let's take a look at the other lights.
Raven: Very long torso, and reasonably wide. It makes up for this by having long ST hitboxes that often cause torso damage to spread. What isn't made up for, is the Raven's gigantic leg hitboxes, which were introduced pre-HSR as a nerf to the 3L (the 2X and 4X just being collateral).
Verdict: Is a fairly good design, though the long torso makes CT-protecting difficult, and the giant legs really hold back its survivability. Also, it's fairly large for a light.

Jenner: Probably scaled a little smaller than it should be, but has very thick legs, and is basically nothing but CT. It has more total armour than the Spider, but its legs are huge in comparison, and it has a nigh-unmissable CT.
Verdict: Undersized, but doesn't matter, because most of the armour is rendered moot by its giant CT.

Commando: I haven't actually piloted the COM, and they're such a rare sight now, but from my experience, the Commando has very low armor, and a very wide torso. It's the only light mech that I can consistently target a side torso on the move.
Verdict: Oversized, under-armoured, and can't protect specific components to save its life.

Locust: Barely shorter than the Spider, with longer, thicker legs, a much longer and wider torso, and only about 60% of the armour.
Verdict: Grossly oversized, large legs, easy-to-hit torso, virtually no armour.


So yeah. The Spider just has the best design of all the lights. It's hard to hit, has great hitbox divisions, tiny legs, and gets Jumpjets and an ECM variant. It's not bugged. It's not broken. It just doesn't have a crippling drawback like every other light does.



Also, please stop using the AC20 as a frame of reference. It has absolutely terrible hit detection. I've put 3 AC20 shells into the rear CT of a nearly-stationary Atlas (and they did register as hits to me) and did basically no damage. Hit detection is bad, and the AC20 is even worse than usual.


Problem is, you can't re-engineer the Spider to be a worse design without redoing the whole mech, and the other lights are pretty well stuck as they are, though the Raven could use a hitbox-revert, and the Jenner could use a hitbox adjustment to help protect the CT a little bit.

If the spider needs a nerf, the easiest way would be to either make the CT hitbox larger, making it easier to core; or make it smaller, and make it easier to side-core, since pretty much everyone uses XL engines.

So full of {Scrap} it's not even funny... Either HSR is malfed, or the hit boxes or malfed, or maybe there's a stealth nerf that most lights enjoy a at a minimum 50% damage reduction on all incoming damage, but I KNOW that Spiders are broken.

I've hit Spiders with 6 rounds of dual gauss before, and they've shrugged it off, yet ANY OTHER 'mech I can kill in 3 rounds.

You Spider pilots keep spewing that propaganda, MAYBE PGI will believe it and keep this craptastically broken 'mech as is and you can continue your exploitation of bad mechanics.