440 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Orodain, on 09 November 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Pgi archives every spider bashing post but the one defending them stays around forever.

Thank you for posting an excellent explanation to their broken nature.

Perhaps that's because the "bashers" don't seem to get through their thick skulls that what Monkey Lover posted wasn't "an excellent explanation of [the Spider's] broken nature", but an excellent explanation of why a server-authoritative game architecture is going to have issues with fast-moving 'mechs unless it's properly compensating (HSR).

Please re-review the last frame, the one which has the labels "where you think it is" and "where the server thinks it is", and perhaps you'll see.

[BadOptics]

Remove spider for now, then once PGI gets done with "UI 2.0" they can try to fix the spider. Then everyone who bought a spider can get them back along with the XP they earned on it.

[Sable Dove]

BadOptics, on 10 November 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Remove spider for now, then once PGI gets done with "UI 2.0" they can try to fix the spider. Then everyone who bought a spider can get them back along with the XP they earned on it.

Yeah, let's remove the Spider for now. It's better than it should be for 30 tons.

While were at it, Jagermechs and Highlanders. They're both far more powerful than their tonnage should warrant. Maybe Centurions as well. They're well-designed, like the Spider, and are much tougher than their tonnage would indicate.

Just because a mech is more powerful than it ought to be, doesn't mean it should be removed. Unfortunately, as the Spider (and other lights) get 'fixed' as HSR is improved, the Jagers and Highlanders would require some individual atttention to bring them in line.

[BadOptics]

Sable Dove, on 10 November 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Yeah, let's remove the Spider for now. It's better than it should be for 30 tons.

While were at it, Jagermechs and Highlanders. They're both far more powerful than their tonnage should warrant. Maybe Centurions as well. They're well-designed, like the Spider, and are much tougher than their tonnage would indicate.

Just because a mech is more powerful than it ought to be, doesn't mean it should be removed. Unfortunately, as the Spider (and other lights) get 'fixed' as HSR is improved, the Jagers and Highlanders would require some individual atttention to bring them in line.

I'm sorry, didn't realize Jagermechs and Highlanders were fundamentally broken and couldn't be hit at all in match. Oh wait, they aren't. Both of those mechs have a role in which they excel at, it's on you if you engage them incorrectly and get stomped. This isn't a discussion about how "powerful" the spider is, it's about how due to the **** hitreg the spider performs better than any light and I would even say any medium mech because half the time hits don't count. And that's before some people have to compensate for lag and shoot so far in front of the mech you don't know where your next few shots will land anyways.

Exhibit A and B:




When Jagermechs and Highlanders are running around with hitboxes as borked as that and there's thousands of threads over a 4-6 month period pointing out the problem, then you might have a point. I'm just saying remove the mech now, use those test servers to fix the issue, and then re-release them (allowing previous owners to keep the variants and xp).

[Sable Dove]

BadOptics, on 10 November 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry, didn't realize Jagermechs and Highlanders were fundamentally broken and couldn't be hit at all in match. Oh wait, they aren't. Both of those mechs have a role in which they excel at, it's on you if you engage them incorrectly and get stomped. This isn't a discussion about how "powerful" the spider is, it's about how due to the **** hitreg the spider performs better than any light and I would even say any medium mech because half the time hits don't count. And that's before some people have to compensate for lag and shoot so far in front of the mech you don't know where your next few shots will land anyways.

Exhibit A and B:




When Jagermechs and Highlanders are running around with hitboxes as borked as that and there's thousands of threads over a 4-6 month period pointing out the problem, then you might have a point. I'm just saying remove the mech now, use those test servers to fix the issue, and then re-release them (allowing previous owners to keep the variants and xp).

First video: SRMs. I've gotten the same result with SRMs with almost every mech I've tested it on. Victor, BlackJack, Jenner, Dragon. They all have the same kind of SRM dead zones that the Spider shows in that video. Only one I tested that I couldn't find the issue (which doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there) on was the Jager, and it has a ton of hitbox issues of its own.

Second video shows there might be an issue, but we only see it from the perspective of the target, which doesn't help much. If the same scenario were shown from the shooter's perspective, it'd be more helpful. It looks like a problem, yes. Though admittedly, it only happens if you shoot a very specific location, at a very specific angle, from a very specific distance. As I recall, the Centurion has been shown to have a similar issue with lasers. (Though the problem area is much closer to the head.)

So yeah, the first video: I bet if you looked hard enough, you could find where to lose SRMs on any mech, and the second video is interesting, but it doesn't make the problem apparent, and it doesn't prove it to be Spider-specific. I've had lasers deal no damage to stationary heavies and assaults repeatedly. It bears further testing, but even if it is specific to the Spider, it's not a big deal; the actual advantage granted by a minuscule dead hitbox that is fairly difficult to hit even when aiming specifically for it - while the mech is less than 90m away, stationary, and facing the shooter - is negligible, at best.

And the Spider has terrible hardpoints to offset its superior design. Removing a mech because it has one potential hitbox issue (which should be looked into, but does not appear to have any significant effect on actual gameplay), and a whole host of imaginary issues invented by people who don't understand that the game is server-authoritative (and that what they see is not necessarily what 'happened'), is not a great plan.

[William Mountbank]

People who want the Spider removed are just miffed that because they dropped in a STK-5S with a 255 they have to spend 5 minutes crawling over to the cap point after the enemy team got steamrollered and MWO's best hide and seek chassis happens to be the last remaining mech.
I mean, who wants to have to mount a maxed engine on a mech with articulated arms, good torso twist and SSRMs? That's not the kind of compromise we should be having to make in this game!

[Monkey Lover]

We all know there are little cracks in the hitboxs.This happens on most mechs from what I can tell.It ends up not mattering much, a lase doesnt sit in one spot and ac only hits it less than 1% of the time.I find it funny when people know where to shoot it still takes them lots of hits to find it. Fixing these spots would be like taking 1% of the armor away.Its not going to change anything.Its going to be funny when they fix it and the spiders still kill them because they cant turn aroun faster than my grandpa in the morning.Most of the problems are because theyre fast and your pings are slow.If your ping is over 150 A spider running sideways will be the body with away before you even contact the server.Slow ping people should be shooting in front of the spinders not at them.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 November 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[Mehlan]

BadOptics, on 10 November 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry, didn't realize Jagermechs and Highlanders were fundamentally broken and couldn't be hit at all in match. Oh wait, they aren't. Both of those mechs have a role in which they excel at, it's on you if you engage them incorrectly and get stomped. This isn't a discussion about how "powerful" the spider is, it's about how due to the **** hitreg the spider performs better than any light and I would even say any medium mech because half the time hits don't count. And that's before some people have to compensate for lag and shoot so far in front of the mech you don't know where your next few shots will land anyways.

Exhibit A and B:




When Jagermechs and Highlanders are running around with hitboxes as borked as that and there's thousands of threads over a 4-6 month period pointing out the problem, then you might have a point. I'm just saying remove the mech now, use those test servers to fix the issue, and then re-release them (allowing previous owners to keep the variants and xp).

Old vids....the second you linked being a repost of and even older one....

so I give you....

[Dirkdaring]

One ran right at me last night in my 2ERPPC stalker. Hit him dead center twice. His armor went orange.

Yep nothing wrong at all.

[stjobe]

For every anecdote of a Spider not registering damage there's another about a non-Spider not registering damage.

Hit registration is broken, we all know this. Please stop trying to act like it's a Spider problem.

[Primetimex]

Hit a Spider with multiple rounds of AC2/UAC5 dead on - didn't even register in his CT.

PGI, do your job properly or remove this borked mech. Many spider pilots have developed bad habits of wading in through throngs of enemy mechs - without fear of damage - thanks to their broken mechs. Some have even waded in AND simply stopped and moving very slowly to take leisurely shots at mechs knowing that most weapons can't hit them.

This has to stop and NOW.

[DrSlamastika]

YES, when I sit in my Spyders I feel like super hero, but in Locust its like on bicycle in the centre of battlefield

[Monkey Lover]

JENNER JR7-D ratio 0.45
JENNER JR7-F ratio 0.52
JENNER JR7-K ratio 0.23
COMMANDO -2D ratio 1.07
COMMANDO 3A ratio 0.54
COMMANDO -1B ratio 0.25
RAVEN RVN-3L ratio 1.98
RAVEN RVN-2X ratio 0.70
RAVEN RVN-4X ratio 0.37
SPIDER SDR-V ratio 0.41
SPIDER SDR-D ratio 1.21
SPIDER SDR-K ratio 0.78
Here are my death to kill ratios . Each mech is master and most are elite. Every mech with a ecm has a high kill to death ratio. My raven is the best out of everything. Even my commando isn't much worse than a spider. If anyone doesn't believe me I will upload a screen shot. How much worse do you people want to make the spider? Do you want it to die like a locust?

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 November 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[FupDup]

Monkey Lover, on 11 November 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Do you want it to die like a locust?

That's what the majority of this community wants out of all of the lights, unfortunately.

[Dimento Graven]

FupDup, on 11 November 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

That's what the majority of this community wants out of all of the lights, unfortunately.

Honestly, that's not what I want. I just want the Spider, and game, fixed so that it doesn't have this 'unreasonable' survivability factor.

The Spider with known hit boxes issues, needs those issues resolved. The game has HSR issues, those need to be resolved. The game has hit detection issues, those need to be resolved.

Resolve any one of these, and the Spider becomes a normal light 'mech, hard to hit, but when hit it won't shrug off most damage. As it is now, there are occasions where a Spider can pretty much wade into the center of 12 enemy 'mechs, dance around a bit, and then walk away as if those 12 'mechs were only firing flamers and machine guns. This happens often enough with the Spider that the general community feels its a significant issue.

You show me any recent non-tongue in cheek 'Non-Spider 'mech is OP' thread and I may reconsider. I haven't noticed any as yet, but I admit I don't follow the forums as closely as some of you.

[Koniving]

Sable Dove, on 20 October 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

So the one Spider-specific test that was done with hit detection isn't reproducable anymore, which would imply that the issue was resolved, and what the problem is is just hit detection in general.

Spiders have supposed never changed their hitboxes since they were first produced. Ever.

This is from that time. AC/20 Ravens before ballistic HSR. Watch how easy these Spiders are to hit with a 0.5 second delay AFTER I pull the trigger to even see a shot fired, during a game where every action I put into the game also has a 0.5 second delay (including turning and walking).

(Edit: Forgot the link!) I should still note hit detection against them is relatively broken with certain autocannons and all regular SRMs.

AC/20s have the worst hit detection of the autocannons currently. In a Stalker there was a point in time in October where someone shot me with a twin AC/20 Jager 7 times in a row, square at where my cockpit practically shots it hitting the glass, and not a single bit of damage registered from them. He went so far as to call me hacking and scream about "bull s***" and reporting me. My ping was 72. His was in the 40s. That issue was fixed around the time the phoenix mechs came out with certain "fixes to hit detection code." See October 15th's patch notes.

Now, that said, it isn't worth {Scrap} against Spiders. But UAC/5s from my Blackjack have absolutely no problem hitting Spiders even flying through the air.

Edited by Koniving, 11 November 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Honestly, that's not what I want. I just want the Spider, and game, fixed so that it doesn't have this 'unreasonable' survivability factor.

The Spider with known hit boxes issues, needs those issues resolved. The game has HSR issues, those need to be resolved. The game has hit detection issues, those need to be resolved.

Resolve any one of these, and the Spider becomes a normal light 'mech, hard to hit, but when hit it won't shrug off most damage. As it is now, there are occasions where a Spider can pretty much wade into the center of 12 enemy 'mechs, dance around a bit, and then walk away as if those 12 'mechs were only firing flamers and machine guns. This happens often enough with the Spider that the general community feels its a significant issue.

You show me any recent non-tongue in cheek 'Non-Spider 'mech is OP' thread and I may reconsider. I haven't noticed any as yet, but I admit I don't follow the forums as closely as some of you.

How can you tell that it is a Hit Box issue? Which is hitbox? Which is HSR? Which is HR? I can't tell what is wrong, but it isn't "Just a spider issue". Otherwise, I wouldn't have seen that Spider last night charge the whole enemy team, do 5 damage, and die in seconds. SHouldn't he have survived that then, seen as "only" spiders are broken enough to not die, even against 12 opponents? I guess someone forgot to tell that pilot that...

[A banana in the tailpipe]

If I shoot a spider in the leg, all I'm asking for is that it damages the leg, and not the CT like it currently does. As it stands right now any shot above the knee-cap is a CT hit, adding to the long list of broken things they suffer from. It gives spiders 2-3x more longevity than they should against point blank shots which should leg them.

January 23rd 2013. PGI is already a laughing stock of online games for net code issues that greatly impact light mechs. A few months later in early August the forums are ablaze with angry threads, full of claims spiders are unkillable. By late August pressure from the community gets a tweet from Russ things will be fixed in the near future. Now it's mid November and this monster of a negative feedback thread claims the forums spotlight like a huge black eye on PGI's face.

[Monkey Lover]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Honestly, that's not what I want. I just want the Spider, and game, fixed so that it doesn't have this 'unreasonable' survivability factor.

So for me you want my spider to die faster than a commando? Because my stats shows only 0.2 difference. My raven is still better than my spider. Do you want to cut it down too? I run in the middle of mechs all the time. 90% of the time they can't shot me because they don't want to shot their team.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 November 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 11 November 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

How can you tell that it is a Hit Box issue? Which is hitbox? Which is HSR? Which is HR? I can't tell what is wrong, but it isn't "Just a spider issue". Otherwise, I wouldn't have seen that Spider last night charge the whole enemy team, do 5 damage, and die in seconds. SHouldn't he have survived that then, seen as "only" spiders are broken enough to not die, even against 12 opponents? I guess someone forgot to tell that pilot that...

Again, for me and my much younger than 6 year old PC, I don't have a problem with ANY OTHER 'MECH, including LOLcust, Trollmando, Raven, Jenner, Cicada, etc., etc. Only with the Spider can I sit there watch my shot hit on my screen, watch my targeting reticule blink red, indicating a hit, and watch the Spider's paper doll not do a whole lot.

Shot after shot after shot.

Hit box issues should be resolved, and PGI is going to do that, they've told us that they are, and they made a SPECIAL POINT of telling us the Spider was among the first of all 'mechs they were going to look into. I don't care which of my hits that didn't register, or didn't register full damage was due to a hit box issue or not. The fact remains, ANY 'mech with hit box issues should be fixed, and that DAMN soon.

In my opinion if PGI were to fix ANY ONE of the issues: hit boxes, HSR, hit detection, you Spider pilots will end up getting the same wake up call Raven pilots got.

But, stop trying to save your little favored flaws and demand that PGI not touch the Spider, but first resolve EVERY OTHER problem... That argument just reeks that you really DO know there's a problem and you DO NOT want it fixed AT ALL.

PGI can fix hit box issues BEFORE everything else, and probably it will be easier to tackle that.

As it is, from how PGI has stated it, they have a team working on hit boxes, another team working on HSR, and yet another team working on hit detection.

I don't see a problem with this. I'm not sure why you would have a problem with this either.