440 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Monkey Lover, on 11 November 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

So for me you want my spider to die faster than a commando? Because my stats shows only 0.2 difference. My raven is still better than my spider. Do you want to cut it down too? I run in the middle of mechs all the time. 90% of the time they can't shot me because they don't want to shot their team.

No, I'm saying when I hit a Spider in the CT, twice, with dual gauss rounds, I want the full damage to register. As it is, I get the red blink of hit detection, but the damage shown on the paper doll does not reflect the 60 points of damage that should have occurred. I've only noticed this happening with Spiders. If it happens with other 'mechs, it's not happening frequently enough for me to notice it, which means ALL OTHER 'MECHS, are much more reasonable in their survivability.

I don't want the Spider artificially easier to kill, but I don't want it artificially harder to kill either.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Again, for me and my much younger than 6 year old PC, I don't have a problem with ANY OTHER 'MECH, including LOLcust, Trollmando, Raven, Jenner, Cicada, etc., etc. Only with the Spider can I sit there watch my shot hit on my screen, watch my targeting reticule blink red, indicating a hit, and watch the Spider's paper doll not do a whole lot.

Shot after shot after shot.

Hit box issues should be resolved, and PGI is going to do that, they've told us that they are, and they made a SPECIAL POINT of telling us the Spider was among the first of all 'mechs they were going to look into. I don't care which of my hits that didn't register, or didn't register full damage was due to a hit box issue or not. The fact remains, ANY 'mech with hit box issues should be fixed, and that DAMN soon.

In my opinion if PGI were to fix ANY ONE of the issues: hit boxes, HSR, hit detection, you Spider pilots will end up getting the same wake up call Raven pilots got.

But, stop trying to save your little favored flaws and demand that PGI not touch the Spider, but first resolve EVERY OTHER problem... That argument just reeks that you really DO know there's a problem and you DO NOT want it fixed AT ALL.

PGI can fix hit box issues BEFORE everything else, and probably it will be easier to tackle that.

As it is, from how PGI has stated it, they have a team working on hit boxes, another team working on HSR, and yet another team working on hit detection.

I don't see a problem with this. I'm not sure why you would have a problem with this either.

What does the age of my computer have to do with this argument at all for game play?
I mentioned the age of my computer as to why I don't want to record while playing this game. It probably can't handle it, and then would effect the game play (FPS). Other than that, my 6 year old computer runs this game fine, and I see this problem all the time with non-spider mechs. I see it more often with Spiders, but that's because I miss more often against them, so when a hit does get ignored by Hit Reg or HSR, it's more noticeable.

Why, just last night I was in my Thunderbolt, and was down to bright red CT internals. After the match, someone commented about how much health a Red CT internals Thunderbolt seems to have, and that they couldn't drop it (me). I have stable ping. The problem wasn't on my end, but probably with them or HSR/HR. They kept missing me on my screen, as well as shooting my rear armor which still had armor. They never hit my CT from the front. Yet, I seemed to have had "more health" than I should have according to them. Maybe they were hitting my CT on their screen from the front? I can't say, but my screen was not showing me that. HSR anyone? Hit Reg being a problem maybe? Or just generalized pilot error/skill/luck on their/my part? Or does the Thunderbolt also now have known Hit Box issues I was not aware of? Was I exploiting a "known problem" by piloting my Thunderbolt?

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But, stop trying to save your little favored flaws and demand that PGI not touch the Spider, but first resolve EVERY OTHER problem... That argument just reeks that you really DO know there's a problem and you DO NOT want it fixed AT ALL.

(PS: This statement makes no sense and contradicts itself. I want a fix that might be the base cause of the problem, but I don't want a fix? Make up your mind. I think this statement is called an Oxymoron.)

I don't really even use a Spider, so go someplace else with that "Favored Flaw" trash. I'd like to kill spiders a little easier too, but I don't want to give them inflated problems because they fix something (hitboxes namely in this case) that might not be the cause of the problem. I can't tell if it's a HSR, HR or Hit Box issue. How can you? They, on the other hand, might be able to actually tell. I don't know. If they can tell, then I want them to fix whatever it is that is the problem.

I don't care which problem it is that gets fixed, but I want the problem solved, not something that is working fine to be solved and not solve the problem in actuality. I DON'T want another PPC issue (in reverse this time though) because they fix something that isn't broken as a stop gap measure, and then when they do fix what is broken, we end up with even more problems than we had before.

Basically, I don't want to see the Spider get enlarged hit boxes to "stop gap" the problem now to make them easier to hit to counter another problem, and then have them fix the root (source) of the problem and then have a walking invisiblimp of a problem later, which would make the Spider useless after the correct fix is done.

Also, the Hit Box fix from my understanding (which is limited as I'm not part of their design team) is going to be separating the pelvis area into more leg area. It is not correcting any other "problems" with the hit boxes. Though, as far as I know. We shall just have to wait and see.

I do know that there is a problem. I do not know where that problem is.
If it is a Hit Box problem, than maybe they will catch it and fix with with the hit box work they are soon to do. That would be great. However, I still keep seeing it as a Hit Registration problem (you hit, but it just isn't registering the damage, seems like the right department) or a HSR issue (it can't tell fluctuating pings well, and any unreliable ping gives those users advantages in survivability, so the server does not see the mech you are shooting where you are shooting it. Sound's like another possible lead). If it is a HSR issue, it would explain why PGI might be having problems finding the issue, their systems probably have low ping and steady ping.

[Monkey Lover]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

No, I'm saying when I hit a Spider in the CT, twice, with dual gauss rounds, I want the full damage to register. As it is, I get the red blink of hit detection, but the damage shown on the paper doll does not reflect the 60 points of damage that should have occurred. I've only noticed this happening with Spiders. If it happens with other 'mechs, it's not happening frequently enough for me to notice it, which means ALL OTHER 'MECHS, are much more reasonable in their survivability.

I don't want the Spider artificially easier to kill, but I don't want it artificially harder to kill either.

This is not want you said you said you wanted them to die more often. They had a unreasonable survivability factor. Fixing a hit box isn't going to change this. Its a 1% of the time event. Its not going to change much. The survivability is the same for my spider as most my lights. If this happens to you often im guessing its something to do with you connection. Are you running a 150ms+ ping? All so time this happens check the percent of damage done. I have seen videos where 25% damage was done and very little change in color.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 November 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

No, I'm saying when I hit a Spider in the CT, twice, with dual gauss rounds, I want the full damage to register. As it is, I get the red blink of hit detection, but the damage shown on the paper doll does not reflect the 60 points of damage that should have occurred. I've only noticed this happening with Spiders. If it happens with other 'mechs, it's not happening frequently enough for me to notice it, which means ALL OTHER 'MECHS, are much more reasonable in their survivability.

I don't want the Spider artificially easier to kill, but I don't want it artificially harder to kill either.

I still think you're just not as good a shot as you think you are. I went down to dual gauss or dual ac20 Jagers a few times yesterday to test it. Ran up in front of a dual gauss jager, he missed the first time (i think he wasn't expecting me to stop, so he overshot) - the second time, from 40 meters, he took off my arm, the third volley was my CT and killed me.

Observation - a dual gauss jager doesn't converge fast enough to get both gauss rounds on-target. Suggested course of action is to aim at the ground in front of the spider, then twitch up to hit it. Alternatively, aim for one of the spider's shoulders and you're more likely to hit with at least one round. The best defense against quad ppc stalkers when I was caught in the open was to run right at them. Again, I could close faster than they could converge.

Observation - dual gauss jagers are real easy to kill if I am within 120m, because they can't twist fast enough to track me.

Edited by Fierostetz, 11 November 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 11 November 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

What does the age of my computer have to do with this argument at all for game play?
I mentioned the age of my computer as to why I don't want to record while playing this game. It probably can't handle it, and then would effect the game play (FPS).

Other than that, my 6 year old computer runs this game fine, and I see this problem all the time with non-spider mechs. I see it more often with Spiders, but that's because I miss more often against them, so when a hit does get ignored by Hit Reg or HSR, it's more noticeable.

Considering that FPS, frames per second, affects what you see, and what you see affects how and when you can respond to 'real time' scenarios, it makes a very big deal. I feel it's why you have this problem with ALL 'mechs (as you have stated), where as I only have issues with the Spider on my much more modern and more powerful system.

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Why, just last night I was in my Thunderbolt, and was down to bright red CT internals. After the match, someone commented about how much health a Red CT internals Thunderbolt seems to have, and that they couldn't drop it (me). I have stable ping. The problem wasn't on my end, but probably with them or HSR/HR. They kept missing me on my screen, as well as shooting my rear armor which still had armor. They never hit my CT from the front. Yet, I seemed to have had "more health" than I should have according to them. Maybe they were hitting my CT on their screen from the front? I can't say, but my screen was not showing me that. HSR anyone? Hit Reg being a problem maybe? Or just generalized pilot error/skill/luck on their/my part? Or does the Thunderbolt also now have known Hit Box issues I was not aware of? Was I exploiting a "known problem" by piloting my Thunderbolt?

Here's the difference, the problem that the other guy experienced trying to bring you down isn't so common, so pervasive throughout the game, we're not seeing hundreds of posts about how the Thunderbolt is broken. I can't explain his problem, I've never had an issue bringing down a Thunderbolt. I've never noticed an issue where when I hit a Thunderbolt where I'm aiming the damage not registering, and when damage does register, I've never noticed it not register for FULL damage, unlike the Spider.

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(PS: This statement makes no sense and contradicts itself. I want a fix that might be the base cause of the problem, but I don't want a fix? Make up your mind. I think this statement is called an Oxymoron.)

Don't be stupid, I don't think you're stupid, so stop trying to make me think you are. When you make statements to the affect of, "ALL OTHER PROBLEMS IN GAME SHOULD BE RESOLVED, BEFORE FIXING THE SPIDER, TO MAKE SURE WE ACTUALLY FIX THE SPIDER, blah blah blah..." It's a CLEAR indication you don't want the Spider actually fixed.

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I don't really even use a Spider, so go someplace else with that "Favored Flaw" trash. I'd like to kill spiders a little easier too, but I don't want to give them inflated problems because they fix something (hitboxes namely in this case) that might not be the cause of the problem. I can't tell if it's a HSR, HR or Hit Box issue. How can you? They, on the other hand, might be able to actually tell. I don't know. If they can tell, then I want them to fix whatever it is that is the problem.

If you don't use a Spider, why do you care, either way? Why are you so vehement that the problem MUST BE something else, even in spite of PGI statements that indicate otherwise?

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I don't care which problem it is that gets fixed, but I want the problem solved, not something that is working fine to be solved and not solve the problem in actuality. I DON'T want another PPC issue (in reverse this time though) because they fix something that isn't broken as a stop gap measure, and then when they do fix what is broken, we end up with even more problems than we had before.

All three need to be fixed, hit box issues, HSR, and hit detection. But any ONE being fixed, will probably result in a 'normalization' of the Spider issue. Not sure how that's a bad thing, as a problem will be fixed, and as a result it will reduces the Spider's issues.

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Basically, I don't want to see the Spider get enlarged hit boxes to "stop gap" the problem now to make them easier to hit to counter another problem, and then have them fix the root (source) of the problem and then have a walking invisiblimp of a problem later, which would make the Spider useless after the correct fix is done.

No one has asked for 'enlarged' hit boxes. We have asked for appropriately sized hit boxes, placed in the appropriate locations, with the appropriate ability to detect when hit.

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Also, the Hit Box fix from my understanding (which is limited as I'm not part of their design team) is going to be separating the pelvis area into more leg area. It is not correcting any other "problems" with the hit boxes. Though, as far as I know. We shall just have to wait and see.

I believe that was mentioned as a, "...among the things we're doing..." sort of statement.

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I do know that there is a problem. I do not know where that problem is.

Excellent, let's fix it.

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If it is a Hit Box problem, than maybe they will catch it and fix with with the hit box work they are soon to do. That would be great. However, I still keep seeing it as a Hit Registration problem (you hit, but it just isn't registering the damage, seems like the right department) or a HSR issue (it can't tell fluctuating pings well, and any unreliable ping gives those users advantages in survivability, so the server does not see the mech you are shooting where you are shooting it. Sound's like another possible lead). If it is a HSR issue, it would explain why PGI might be having problems finding the issue, their systems probably have low ping and steady ping.

Fortunately, they're working on all aspects of this issue. If hit boxes get fixed first and it reduces the problem, great! Then once they fix the other issues, all 'mechs, including the Spider should be balanced when it comes to hit box, hit registration, and HSR.

Monkey Lover, on 11 November 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

This is not want you said you said you wanted them to die more often. They had a unreasonable survivability factor. Fixing a hit box isn't going to change this. Its a 1% of the time event. Its not going to change much. The survivability is the same for my spider as most my lights. If this happens to you often im guessing its something to do with you connection. Are you running a 150ms+ ping? All so time this happens check the percent of damage done. I have seen videos where 25% damage was done and very little change in color.

Where did I say I "just want them to die more often." That is incorrect, I want them to detect the hit, when I hit them, I want them to register all the damage that I deliver. The END RESULT will be that Spiders die more often when I fire at them, yes, but I don't want to just have to look at a Spider and have it fall over dead.

You can be extremely ridiculous, and ridiculous to the extreme all you want, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that Spider hit boxes, hit detection, and HSR need work, and that if any ONE of them are fixed, you're in for that rude awakening I been talking about. Y'know the one Raven pilots had to endure...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 11 November 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Fierostetz, on 11 November 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

I still think you're just not as good a shot as you think you are. I went down to dual gauss or dual ac20 Jagers a few times yesterday to test it. Ran up in front of a dual gauss jager, he missed the first time (i think he wasn't expecting me to stop, so he overshot) - the second time, from 40 meters, he took off my arm, the third volley was my CT and killed me.

Observation - a dual gauss jager doesn't converge fast enough to get both gauss rounds on-target. Suggested course of action is to aim at the ground in front of the spider, then twitch up to hit it. Alternatively, aim for one of the spider's shoulders and you're more likely to hit with at least one round. The best defense against quad ppc stalkers when I was caught in the open was to run right at them. Again, I could close faster than they could converge.

Observation - dual gauss jagers are real easy to kill if I am within 120m, because they can't twist fast enough to track me.

Perhaps not, though hit detection was being reported, so even if ONE of each of those dual gauss rounds was hitting, that's still 30 points I delivered according to hit detection, yet CT turns outer yellow?

I've fought many a Spider up close, and that's where hit detection is definitely the worst for any ballistic weapon. Close in, fast moving targets for any ballistic weapon is difficult. The issue comes in, when a Spider gets hit, it doesn't appear to register full damage all the time. Sometimes I'll hit a Spider in the rear CT and both the FRONT and BACK CT register damage. This is incorrect. I should NOT be having to punch through ALL CT armor, both front and back, when I'm hitting from the front or from the rear. Yet, I've seen that, it's very frustrating, because you KNOW there's no Spider out there with 30 total armor in the rear CT.

[Monkey Lover]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Y'know the one Raven pilots had to endure...

yet my raven has almost twice the kill the death ratio of a spider. I would take a raven over a spider any day. Everyone mech has hitbox issues I could care less if you fix 1% issue with a spider. it will be like taking 1% of my armor away.

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

30 points I delivered according to hit detection, yet CT turns outer yellow?

So how is the hit detection off when it hit and turned yellow? It sure as heck detected it. Again I think most of you just want the spider to die like a locust. http://mwomercs.com/...mage-it-should/

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I smacked a heavily damaged Jager in the back CT with two, at about 300 meters. Now very few players have 30 armor on their rear CT, but the thing goes to light yellow rear CT. Slightly damaged. It should have been cored.

Problems happen on all mechs not just the spider.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 November 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Monkey Lover, on 11 November 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

yet my raven has almost twice the kill the death ratio of a spider. I would take a raven over a spider any day. Everyone mech has hitbox issues I could care less if you fix 1% issue with a spider. it will be like taking 1% of my armor away.

Fine, then your argument is done here isn't it?

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So how is the hit detection off when it hit and turned yellow? It sure as heck detected it. Again I think most of you just want the spider to die like a locust.

Not just yellow, only OUTER yellow. A Spider getting hit twice in the CT for a minimum of 30 points. The maximum possible CT armor on a Spider is 40. At the very least it should have been outer orange or red, not yellow. Not just hit detection, but the damage delivered isn't even being applied properly.

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http://mwomercs.com/...mage-it-should/ Problems happen on all mechs not just the spider.

As soon as we start seeing the same type of forum posts Spiders are getting, for Jager's, we might be able to agree. As it is, the posts on Jagers I see seem to indicate that the Jager's arms are too small, and side torsos are too big, not that they have broken hit boxes, don't register damage, or hits properly, or have an HSR issue.

[Clit Beastwood]

Dimento I think you really need to find a way to document your findings before posting more. You're vehemently insisting that a fairly junky build should be doing better than it is. My own personal observations differ from yours and I've provided first-hand video, match after match, of such issues not happening. Re-posting someone else's video is not acceptable proof, as its from several patches ago. Try running a different mech that isn't a dual jager cheese build and see if your performance improves. It might be your dual gauss Jager thats bugged and not the spider.

Also, I was concerned that this thread is slowing down and I want to add fuel to it

As of late, the survivability of my spider 5d is on-par with my deaths knell at 172kph. If anything my DK has been causing more end-of-match rage. At 172 THAT thing is hard to hit.

Edited by Fierostetz, 11 November 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Fierostetz, on 11 November 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Dimento I think you really need to find a way to document your findings before posting more. You're vehemently insisting that a fairly junky build should be doing better than it is. My own personal observations differ from yours and I've provided first-hand video, match after match, of such issues not happening. Re-posting someone else's video is not acceptable proof, as its from several patches ago. Try running a different mech that isn't a dual jager cheese build and see if your performance improves. It might be your dual gauss Jager thats bugged and not the spider.

Also, I was concerned that this thread is slowing down and I want to add fuel to it

'Jager cheese'??!?!? Hmmm... I thought 'cheese builds' were those that were specifically made to take advantage of broken mechanics (ala: pop-tarts and Streakapults and maybe SPIDERS! [how's that for 'fuel'?]). I'm not aware of any broken game mechanics that are over powering the Jager or gauss...

You'll note my own posted video where I posted a 3 LB10x Ilya shooting at Spider and the lack of damage the Spider had. Something only Spiders seem to be able to do, any other 'mech would have, at the very least, been missing a few body parts at the end of that exchange.

And by several, I guess you're meaning more than two, which is 3, which is how far back the one video showing SRMs not registering went. Less than a month, of course the ***** with his 'counter' video trying to demonstrate that the problem doesn't exist just happens to be aiming at a different spot than the aforementioned one, but whatever, let's not let details obscure the argument.

[Clit Beastwood]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

'Jager cheese'??!?!? Hmmm... I thought 'cheese builds' were those that were specifically made to take advantage of broken mechanics (ala: pop-tarts and Streakapults and maybe SPIDERS! [how's that for 'fuel'?]). I'm not aware of any broken game mechanics that are over powering the Jager or gauss...

You'll note my own posted video where I posted a 3 LB10x Ilya shooting at Spider and the lack of damage the Spider had. Something only Spiders seem to be able to do, any other 'mech would have, at the very least, been missing a few body parts at the end of that exchange.

And by several, I guess you're meaning more than two, which is 3, which is how far back the one video showing SRMs not registering went. Less than a month, of course the ***** with his 'counter' video trying to demonstrate that the problem doesn't exist just happens to be aiming at a different spot than the aforementioned one, but whatever, let's not let details obscure the argument.

twitch.tv/fierostetz - feel free to peruse the body of content available at any time. I keep them on twitch as they're timestamped.

I call it Jager cheese a) because it provokes a a response, and because the entire build is a concession to carry two pinpoint weapons as opposed to a balanced and survivable build. A dual AC/20 is also cheesy, though the dual gauss Jager is literally the last mech I would choose to fight lights in. A spider with 1ll and 2ml takes 3 alphas to get through your rear armor, and with the charge mechanic you're basically defenseless up close against a decent light pilot. You have literally the worst build for fighting lights - my suggestion is to try something else, i.e. a dual LBX jager with 4ml, and sweep the legs.

I'm asking you to post proof of your own so we can validate it with the game in it's *current* state rather than from videos of indeterminate origin. I know you can record game video, you have plenty of it on youtube.

Edited by Fierostetz, 11 November 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

I'll see if I can't go spider hunting tonight and cap some video. So far, the only spider I've had any issues with (just once!) was a high-ping 5k. Most of the complaints I've heard from people are the 5k. Now, is it everywhere because it's a trial mech, or is it everywhere because people are exploiting? No idea- when pugging I'm usually the only spider on my team, and the other team is usually jenners for their lights. Rarely do I see another spider, and *very* rarely do I see a 5k. I've started asking at the beginning of some pug matches if anyone on the other team has AC's and is willing to help me test something against a spider, but I never get responses. Again, ANYONE reading this thread. If you drop against me, I'm totally willing to take one for the greater good to test the hit boxes. I never drop in a 5k, only a 5v or 5d, so those'll have to do. (don't make fun of my 5v, 12jj is fun!)

Edited by Fierostetz, 11 November 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Tanreh]

Well, I do not know in which games you are playing...but about 85 % of the games I am in have at least 1 Spider in the opposition...many times 2 (35 %) and sometimes 3 (5%).

I am always jubilant to experience a game without a spider either in my team or the opposing one.

Before you ask...the percentages are intuitive.

[Clit Beastwood]

Tanreh, on 11 November 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Well, I do not know in which games you are playing...but about 85 % of the games I am in have at least 1 Spider in the opposition...many times 2 (35 %) and sometimes 3 (5%).

I am always jubilant to experience a game without a spider either in my team or the opposing one.

Before you ask...the percentages are intuitive.

Keep them intuitive. I started keeping post-drop spreadsheets to get more data about my progress as a player and it's a long dark road to head down. I stopped seeing other spiders in pug drops about a month ago. Now I just see jenners and the occasional com-2d, or occasional 4man drops of locusts.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Considering that FPS, frames per second, affects what you see, and what you see affects how and when you can respond to 'real time' scenarios, it makes a very big deal. I feel it's why you have this problem with ALL 'mechs (as you have stated), where as I only have issues with the Spider on my much more modern and more powerful system.

Why, thank you for assuming that I have problems such as that. My FPS, seen as you want to mention it, is around 40-30. Now, if I was to run another memory hungry, processor hungry program behind MW:O, can you imagine what my FPS might become? It's like downloading updates while the game is running. My FPS drop down to 20-10, my Ping jumps up to a couple hundred and the game jags and glitches in an impossible to play state.

When I have my computer with just MW:O running (and Firefox), it's fine and plays just as well as any of my other games. No problems with visuals as long as I keep my visual settings low. I actually can play the game with max graphics, if I desired a much lower frame rate, probably around the 20-10 range like what I had before I upgraded my Video Card for this game.

So, I'd have to conclude that my computer is not an issue. So, lets look at my ping, shall we? I normally sit around 30-40 ping in a match. I typically find I have better ping than everyone else in match I normally play (I did see someone with a 5 ping, that was amazing to just see). It doesn't seem to fluctuate that much, so I feel it seems stable. I shall admit I am on a wireless network, but it's a wireless N setup, and I'm literally only a few feet from the router. I have notice no ill effects from this. I have noticed no difference between having my computer directly connected or on wireless. So, I shall say that I don't have problems on that as well.

So, either it's the game or it's the other player's connection. Either way, something is wrong with more than just the Spider, but the Spider is by far one of the thinnest and fastest mechs in the game (with jump as well). It only makes sense that problems with HSR would probably hit the Spider the most. And Hit Reg would be more noticeable with the Spider, as it's easier to miss which makes it when you "think" you hit, you want it to really "hit". The problem may be happening on other mechs, but people "see" it more on the Spider. There very well could be something wrong with the Spider specifically, but as I've said countless times before, I can't tell with the other problems in the game.

However, to counter the point, I have found that, strangely, my slow mover (smallest engine in it) Locust seems to be able to take more hits than my faster moving versions. My faster Locusts seem to die with a single hit most times, but my slow Locust will take a few hits, then start to be picked apart as no one seems to be able to cleanly "Hit me". So I tend to hobble for a while on one leg, with one torso gone, waiting for someone to finish me off...

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Here's the difference, the problem that the other guy experienced trying to bring you down isn't so common, so pervasive throughout the game, we're not seeing hundreds of posts about how the Thunderbolt is broken. I can't explain his problem, I've never had an issue bringing down a Thunderbolt. I've never noticed an issue where when I hit a Thunderbolt where I'm aiming the damage not registering, and when damage does register, I've never noticed it not register for FULL damage, unlike the Spider.

I don't know. Just saying what was mentioned inside the game. However, you want some "hundreds of posts" on something related? Look up SRMs. Everyone is complaining about how useless they are now, and how they don't do any/enough/proper damage. Could that be related to the Spider? Could that be another sign of HSR or HR being off for the whole game? Lasers also have been getting a lot of attention too on that same debate. Seems like the only weapon working near reliable (kinda) right now are ACs...

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Don't be stupid, I don't think you're stupid, so stop trying to make me think you are. When you make statements to the affect of, "ALL OTHER PROBLEMS IN GAME SHOULD BE RESOLVED, BEFORE FIXING THE SPIDER, TO MAKE SURE WE ACTUALLY FIX THE SPIDER, blah blah blah..." It's a CLEAR indication you don't want the Spider actually fixed.

If that was the case, then why do I want the Spider to be fixed? I just want it to be fixed correctly the first time. Not end up with more problems after a temporary fix. I don't want to see a flood of Spiders like how I saw PPCs, but neither to I want to see them disappear from the game to become a rare sight like how the Awesome seems to be...

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

If you don't use a Spider, why do you care, either way? Why are you so vehement that the problem MUST BE something else, even in spite of PGI statements that indicate otherwise?

All three need to be fixed, hit box issues, HSR, and hit detection. But any ONE being fixed, will probably result in a 'normalization' of the Spider issue. Not sure how that's a bad thing, as a problem will be fixed, and as a result it will reduces the Spider's issues.

No one has asked for 'enlarged' hit boxes. We have asked for appropriately sized hit boxes, placed in the appropriate locations, with the appropriate ability to detect when hit.

I care because other people use the Spider. I care because the Spider deserves to be fixed properly. I am not saying that it is or is not the Hit Boxes. I'm just saying that we can't say if it is or isn't the hit boxes as of this time. There is not enough evidence to support it one way or the other. If they "fix" the hit boxes to make the Spider more "killable", they would have to probably make them larger, so that they can be more easily hit. If they can properly fix hit boxes right now and not create future problems, then by all means. If they (PGI) has found the problem (and it is hit boxes), then I say fix it. However, I am just advising that they shouldn't lunge in too quickly, as I want them to fix it right and not cause more problems down the road.

I believe in doing a job once, doing it right the first time, so you don't have to waste more time going back to fix mistakes. If that means that it takes longer the first time around, so be it. I'd rather it take longer to fix to get the right fix, then get the wrong "fix" and have them have to waste even more time going back and fixing it again.

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I believe that was mentioned as a, "...among the things we're doing..." sort of statement.

I read it as it is. It says they are reworking hit boxes to try and balance those mechs. The announced changes so far is that the pelvic area is going to be more leg and less torso now. They have said no other corrections so far, so the rest we can only speculate on. You could be right. You could be wrong. Doing go saying you are right when it is only a possibility. That's all I am meaning.

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Excellent, let's fix it.

We can't right now, as we don't know which of the three components are the problem. PGI has far more information than we do on this subject anyway, so it's all up to them to make the right fix.

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Fortunately, they're working on all aspects of this issue. If hit boxes get fixed first and it reduces the problem, great! Then once they fix the other issues, all 'mechs, including the Spider should be balanced when it comes to hit box, hit registration, and HSR.

That would be nice. I just hope that they don't make a hot box "stop gap" fix that creates more problems later. If they are just revising and slightly altering the hit boxes, then fine. If they are working it in with all known problems, then that sounds all the better.

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Y'know the one Raven pilots had to endure...

The one Raven Pilots had to endure, as their leg hit boxes got invisibly larger than was visually apparent, making them more easily legged? Is that the fix you are talking about? (They also did fix the "damage to rear or front will move to most armored place" bug too, which was what was needed, among other fixes.) I'm worried that the Spider might get the same sort of treatment as Raven Legs... (Though to be honest, I don't notice this with the Raven, but I can say my Raven does seem to get legged more often than I like...)

Edited by Tesunie, 11 November 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[tvaughanx]

Spiders are broke but hit detection on this game is broke also end of story.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Perhaps not, though hit detection was being reported, so even if ONE of each of those dual gauss rounds was hitting, that's still 30 points I delivered according to hit detection, yet CT turns outer yellow?

I've fought many a Spider up close, and that's where hit detection is definitely the worst for any ballistic weapon. Close in, fast moving targets for any ballistic weapon is difficult. The issue comes in, when a Spider gets hit, it doesn't appear to register full damage all the time. Sometimes I'll hit a Spider in the rear CT and both the FRONT and BACK CT register damage. This is incorrect. I should NOT be having to punch through ALL CT armor, both front and back, when I'm hitting from the front or from the rear. Yet, I've seen that, it's very frustrating, because you KNOW there's no Spider out there with 30 total armor in the rear CT.

The question with the back hit is, where did you hit it? If one hit the lower pelvic area, that "butt" plate is considered front armor still. That means that one shot should have hit the back torso, and the second shot might have hit the "butt" front torso. I have used this trick myself to kill other mechs from behind when their front torso was armorless and their back still had armor. I shot the "butt" of the mech, bypassing the back armor's Armor. You could say I was exploiting it, but it's been that way since day one from my knowledge, and it took me a while to figure it out myself.

Add this information with the information provided below, and you might start to see a pattern of hit registration and HSR doing something funky, even for you. As far as it happening "only to the Spider", maybe you just aren't being observant with other mechs and it's happening to them without you knowing about it? Is that a possibility?

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

As soon as we start seeing the same type of forum posts Spiders are getting, for Jager's, we might be able to agree. As it is, the posts on Jagers I see seem to indicate that the Jager's arms are too small, and side torsos are too big, not that they have broken hit boxes, don't register damage, or hits properly, or have an HSR issue.

Problem isn't with the Jager on this, it's the Gauss (and also been mentioned with the AC20 as well). There are several posts about those weapons not doing full damage, if they even register at all to start with. Same with SRMs as well. There have been threads all over the place how the closer you get, the more your weapons seem to not work right. Either they aren't registering damage at all, or they don't seem to apply the correct damage the pilots think it should be causing.
(Had this myself with a PPC. Was shooting it, I hit a stationary target 3 times with them, then died to referse sniper fire. Total damage I did was 3... a PPC causes 10 damage. At extreme range (only goes as far as twice range) it will do half damage. So, how did 3 shots do 3 damage? I'm going to guess it didn't register full damage on any of the shots.

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

'Jager cheese'??!?!? Hmmm... I thought 'cheese builds' were those that were specifically made to take advantage of broken mechanics (ala: pop-tarts and Streakapults and maybe SPIDERS! [how's that for 'fuel'?]).

Spoiler

I'm not aware of any broken game mechanics that are over powering the Jager or gauss...<br></p><p><br></p><p>You'll note my own posted video where I posted a 3 LB10x Ilya shooting at Spider and the lack of damage the Spider had. Something only Spiders seem to be able to do, any other 'mech would have, at the very least, been missing a few body parts at the end of that exchange.

And by several, I guess you're meaning more than two, which is 3, which is how far back the one video showing SRMs not registering went. Less than a month, of course the ***** with his 'counter' video trying to demonstrate that the problem doesn't exist just happens to be aiming at a different spot than the aforementioned one, but whatever, let's not let details obscure the argument.

Cheese builds are normally builds that "follow the meta" and are "deemed as overly powerful". The Dual Gauss Jager was an old Cheese build, as well as the Dual AC20 Jager, mostly because of it's high pin point damage destroying mechs in almost one or two shots. The SplatCat was deemed cheese because, once in range, it could take on several Atlases and come out on top. That was because of how SRMs were multiplying their damage from splash effects, making a single SRM doing past 5 points of damage per. The Streakcat was cheese because, not only was it always hitting, but it was always shacking and smokescreening your mech, making most anyone unable to even defend themselves. Etc.

By several as in, they fixed the hole in the Spider (it wasn't able to be reproduced) 2 patches ago from my knowledge (maybe even 3). It would be like posting the LRMagedon videos as proof that LRMs are overpowered days after the hot fix to correct them.

(And if someone wants my Ping and FPS, I just did a series of Screens from my last game. Give me a bit to upload them...)

[Tesunie]

If it is of matter or consequence... here are my average Ping and FPS from my last match, in an 81 KPH Locust. (See? I managed to survive being hit several times!)

Spoiler

Does that close doubts about my machines preformance, despite it being 6 years old? It might not be the greatest for good looking graphics, but it can more than play the game. And my ping was rather stable, only jumping up to 60 twice that I noticed (only got one in a screen shot though). 60 is still far less than most everyone else ping. And it was rather steady in the 37-39 range for most of the match.

[Tesunie]

tvaughanx, on 11 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Spiders are broke but hit detection on this game is broke also end of story.

The question more so is, where is the Spider broken, how it is broken, and what needs to be fixed to make it not broken. I see too many people just say "Spider's have bad hit boxes" and they don't consider that it might be something else in the game instead, or compiled with a possible hit box issue.

[Clit Beastwood]

Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I've fought many a Spider up close, and that's where hit detection is definitely the worst for any ballistic weapon. Close in, fast moving targets for any ballistic weapon is difficult. The issue comes in, when a Spider gets hit, it doesn't appear to register full damage all the time. Sometimes I'll hit a Spider in the rear CT and both the FRONT and BACK CT register damage.

IF this is really happening, if you've fought many a spider with such ridiculous issues, why don't you post some at your youtube (located here http://www.youtube.c...heDimentoGraven as reference for anyone else in anticipation of dimento posting some more videos) so we can all see the issue firsthand. All you've posted so far is missing or partially hitting a 5k a bunch of times, then nicking him with LBX pellets (which are worthless against armored targets). Also of note- in your spider video, the spiders head went yellow core right away. It clearly detected that hit. I'm not saying it isn't happening, I'm saying you're speaking as if its fact without proof. The burden of proof is on you, as I've provided all I can with just one questionable so far. I'm trying to help find proof of an issue so it can be fixed, but if the issue doesn't really exist then I don't want the mech artificially handicapped. I've invited you to group with me and shoot me; you declined for justifiable reasons, but I don't know how else this is ever going to be put to rest. There are hit reg issues shooting *everything*, not just spiders.

Edited by Fierostetz, 11 November 2013 - 01:43 PM.