440 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

Dimento Graven, on 15 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Same place a Spider does, only on a Spider, it 'magically' shrinks down to fit in the Spider's diminutive crit slots... Or does it 'magically' expand in an Atlas?

Each 'mech has the same number of crit slots, and MG ammo is MG ammo, 1 ton of MG ammo weighs the same as 1 ton of any other ammo. You can't fool us by asking which is heavier, a pound of feather or a pound of lead...

Weight is the over riding factor, it's just that whatever takes up an entire crit slot in an Atlas is somehow able to shrink down to fit the Spider crit slots.

Obviously the real problem is that PGI has removed the 'human scale' factor that Fasa had originally scaled their 'mech designs to, re:


Or, are we cramming midgets and dwarves into Spiders, Locusts, Ravens, and Commandos?

In a practical sense, the MG ammo can be stacked in drums/bins - the missiles require storage, you can't stack them as tightly, theres more space wasted inside them, they're probably about 18"-24" long, and the ammo feeder would likely be a lot larger. I can see, realistically, that an all energy mech would be slimmer than something that had to reserve internal room for a loading mechanism and feeder. I've always wondered how missiles get from the left leg to the right shoulder, etc.

Though, I know, trying to assign to much real-world practicality to it seriously though, a ballistic or missile heavy mech would *have* to have room for ammo storage and a loading mechanism.

Fierostetz, on 15 November 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

In a practical sense, the MG ammo can be stacked in drums/bins - the missiles require storage, you can't stack them as tightly, theres more space wasted inside them, they're probably about 18"-24" long, and the ammo feeder would likely be a lot larger. I can see, realistically, that an all energy mech would be slimmer than something that had to reserve internal room for a loading mechanism and feeder. I've always wondered how missiles get from the left leg to the right shoulder, etc.

Though, I know, trying to assign to much real-world practicality to it seriously though, a ballistic or missile heavy mech would *have* to have room for ammo storage and a loading mechanism.

And god I love the old school fasa tech schematics

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 15 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Same place a Spider does, only on a Spider, it 'magically' shrinks down to fit in the Spider's diminutive crit slots... Or does it 'magically' expand in an Atlas?

Each 'mech has the same number of crit slots, and MG ammo is MG ammo, 1 ton of MG ammo weighs the same as 1 ton of any other ammo. You can't fool us by asking which is heavier, a pound of feather or a pound of lead...

Weight is the over riding factor, it's just that whatever takes up an entire crit slot in an Atlas is somehow able to shrink down to fit the Spider crit slots.

Obviously the real problem is that PGI has removed the 'human scale' factor that Fasa had originally scaled their 'mech designs to, re:


Or, are we cramming midgets and dwarves into Spiders, Locusts, Ravens, and Commandos?

From another thread I read about mech scale, the Commando is the only mech in the game that can't fit the pilot where he is shown in the game cockpit, as the Commando's cockpit we see would actually extend outside the head of the commando. The other light mechs actually have cockpits and heads that are large enough to fit the pilot, though the Spider is especially cramped. Then again, the Spider tends to lack an ejection system, just to save space on the cockpit...

Also, crit slots are a balancing feature in the game. The idea is that, after the structure and "muscular" system of a mech, there is only so much space left. Every mech, no matter actual size, can only carry so much "crit space" of items on them. Larger mechs have more weight to put bigger things into these crit spaces, and smaller mechs don't have the weight to get the bigger weapons.

Ammo takes up the same crit space, but I would presume that a ton of MG bullets would have less empty space between the bullets, compared to larger AC bullets. Missiles probably weigh even less than AC bullets, then again I could be wrong as missiles have a liquid propellent, and liquids have more weight to mass (as it fills in all space, leaving no space unfilled). You also have to consider the size of the ammo feeds for the ammo. A MG's ammo feed is going to be smaller than other weapons, as MG bullets, which have to pass through the feeds, are smaller. An AC's ammo is much larger, which means that AC ammo would need larger feeds, filling up whatever crit space is there (for larger mechs most likely). Missiles are even larger ammo types per shot than an AC, so it takes even larger feeds to bring them around. This leads to missile mechs tending to have more "bulk" for their size built in.

Overall, a lot of the physics need to be placed into fantasy fictional physics. They exist in the game for it's own reasons, mostly as a balancing feature. It might not always fit into the real world, as it was all fictional anyway and fiction, even science fiction, doesn't always follow every rule in real life.

Also, as far as the Spider's scale to other mechs, it is taller, much taller, than the commando. So, being only 5 tons heavier, it only makes sense that, being taller, it is thinner as well. I also mentioned that people have an easier time with a wider target than a taller target. Especially when each combatant is moving in a horizontal manner.

PS: Also, in a Cryengine system, the pilot used is about the size of an Elemental, and not a standard human. So, if normal humans are used in scale, the Commando would be fine.

EDIT:
Found the link!
http://mwomercs.com/...line-asset-art/

Edited by Tesunie, 15 November 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[William Mountbank]

As an aside, my 5D is the only mech I've seen with lovely plush leather padding in the cockpit. I always feel like I'm wearing a smoking jacket with some single malt trickling down a tube from the neurohelmet.

[Monkey Lover]

Quote

Hitbox geometry reduced in complexity and increased in size to encompass components more thoroughly.
- Split Pelvis to apply damage to Left and Right Leg instead of Center Torso.
- The Left REAR Torso and Right REAR Torso have been increased in size by approximately 10%.
- The front Center Torso has been increased in size (around the chest area) by approximately 10%.

So in other words the hit boxes were fine on a spider they're increasing the size so they die easier

[Mehlan]

Monkey Lover, on 19 November 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

So in other words the hit boxes were fine on a spider they're increasing the size so they die easier

Where in the commentary you quote does it say they were broken and were fixed?
Oh gee they increased right/left rear and upper ct by 10%, such a huge increase/change.

[xRatas]

Mehlan, on 19 November 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Where in the commentary you quote does it say they were broken and were fixed?
Oh gee they increased right/left rear and upper ct by 10%, such a huge increase/change.

It says they now represent geometry better and they were over complicated before. Can you say in much more neutral way that they were broken and have been fixed? I'd like to interpret that as: they were smaller than mech is visually and were too complicated to work reliably. That would indeed point out they were broken before. Yet to test how broken they are now.

[Tesunie]

xRatas, on 19 November 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

It says they now represent geometry better and they were over complicated before. Can you say in much more neutral way that they were broken and have been fixed? I'd like to interpret that as: they were smaller than mech is visually and were too complicated to work reliably. That would indeed point out they were broken before. Yet to test how broken they are now.

Basically, all they fixed was this...


Instead of having your reticule over the Spider visually and not hitting it, you should now have those few extra pixels to match the visual appearance of the Spider with the Hit box version of the Spider. It was such a small change, it's practically insignificant as far as I can tell. No testing has been done with the new Spider as of yet, I shall work on that tomorrow when I can. As of now, as far as I can read, it will not change the Spider to any real significance, unless you wish to call out the torso/leg split that seems to be happening slowly to all mechs in the game...

Will need farther testing to confirm data.

[Clit Beastwood]

I was trying to test it, but since the patch I'm lag spiking like a ****. First round I gave up because I kept teleporting around, second round I killed 2 jagers before teleporting up in the air and winding up stuck in the rocks. If anyone else is experiencing the insane lag spikes, make sure you post in the patch feedback thingy about it. It's *bad*.

[Sable Dove]

xRatas, on 19 November 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

It says they now represent geometry better and they were over complicated before. Can you say in much more neutral way that they were broken and have been fixed? I'd like to interpret that as: they were smaller than mech is visually and were too complicated to work reliably. That would indeed point out they were broken before. Yet to test how broken they are now.

Actually, it implies that they represent the actual geometry less now. They simplified it and made it bigger because the actual model was considered too small.

Of course, I haven't piloted mine a significant amount in a while, and I never had trouble killing them, so there's not much I can say about how much better or worse they may be, other than likely being slightly easier to leg now.

[Monkey Lover]

Mehlan, on 19 November 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Where in the commentary you quote does it say they were broken and were fixed?
Oh gee they increased right/left rear and upper ct by 10%, such a huge increase/change.

I didn't say they were broken . I said "So in other words the hit boxes were fine". All they did was make more hits target the center so they die faster to make people happy. I have yet to die from a shoulder hit tonight.

[Clit Beastwood]

Monkey Lover, on 19 November 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

I didn't say they were broken . I said "So in other words the hit boxes were fine". All they did was make more hits target the center so they die faster to make people happy. I have yet to die from a shoulder hit tonight.

Did one more drop - it felt like normal (spider wise - not damage wise), whipping my torso back and forth spread damage out. I wasn't willing to stand in direct fire and I don't actually get hit very often while ninja-ing around, but I did notice that shots that looked, to me, like they should be missing... were hits. Not a terrible nerf to ol' spidey, but I can see it frustrating some of the me-too spider 5k pilots. And PGI get the dang spikes figured out! Just kidding, I still love you. Nothing weird though. No means no.

Tonights spider matches
1. LAG SPIKES - 190dmg 0kills died when I teleported up in the air, came down and got stuck in rocks. CT destroyed.
2. LAG SPIKES - 394 (maybe 354?) dmg 2 kills lived after getting stuck. still teleporting but not as bad.
3. hard DC 60 seconds in - had 4 solid LL and 10 solid ML hits, but no dmg readout due to DC
last drop. probably died. I wonder if hit detection/hsr/etc. works better after someone dc's?
4. LAGGGGG - 5xx damage 3 kills - an orion was much harder to kill. can't shoot him in the pee pee for easy ct damage. killed XL atlas (lol!)

Edited by Fierostetz, 19 November 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

lol people in the games are still crying about the spiders "hit boxes are broken" haha They're never going to be happy until few hits kill them like a lotus.

[Corvus Antaka]

Same as always. Spider vs good pilot 1 mistake and your dead.

vs bad pilot - let the QQ commence.

[Clit Beastwood]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 19 November 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

Same as always. Spider vs good pilot 1 mistake and your dead.

vs bad pilot - let the QQ commence.

Haha if I die in match, I always say to my teamspeak friends, "I'm down. I made a mistake" then I giggle like a little girl. It's so true - one second of divided focus and !bam! You're dead or legged. Maybe I'm sick but it's that part that gets my adrenalin pumping. Only mech that does that to me.

[Mystere]

Fierostetz, on 19 November 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Haha if I die in match, I always say to my teamspeak friends, "I'm down. I made a mistake" then I giggle like a little girl. It's so true - one second of divided focus and !bam! You're dead or legged. Maybe I'm sick but it's that part that gets my adrenalin pumping. Only mech that does that to me.

Well then, you're going to absolutely love the adrenaline rush caused by riding Locusts.

[Dimento Graven]

Quote

Hitbox geometry reduced in complexity and increased in size to encompass components more thoroughly.
- Split Pelvis to apply damage to Left and Right Leg instead of Center Torso.
- The Left REAR Torso and Right REAR Torso have been increased in size by approximately 10%.
- The front Center Torso has been increased in size (around the chest area) by approximately 10%.

Let's see first sentence says it all, "geometry reduced in complexity", well honestly that can be interpreted in so many ways, god only knows wtf PGI was trying to hide with that syntactically zero value statement, so let's move on to the other half of that, "increased in size to encompass components more thoroughly." To me that's pretty obvious, the hit boxes were TOO SMALL and weren't completely covering the parts of the mech, allowing for more misses than there should have been.

If the hit boxes weren't covering components thoroughly it's obvious they were incomplete. Anything incomplete isn't working as intended, ergo, broken.

Spin all you want, but 'denial ain't just a river in Egypt'...

[Clit Beastwood]

Mystere, on 19 November 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

Well then, you're going to absolutely love the adrenaline rush caused by riding Locusts.

They're a rush! Got the laser one and the mg one mastered. Not interested in the missile one - it's almost mastered with a LPL in its nose. Mini wubwub!

I really like the laser one after eliting - awesome acceleration, instant stopping... And doesn't have the Phoenix frame thingy in the cockpit viewport

[William Mountbank]

Dimento Graven, on 19 November 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

"geometry reduced in complexity"
"increased in size to encompass components more thoroughly."
To me that's pretty obvious, the hit boxes were TOO SMALL and weren't completely covering the parts of the mech, allowing for more misses than there should have been.
If the hit boxes weren't covering components thoroughly it's obvious they were incomplete. Anything incomplete isn't working as intended, ergo, broken.

Except this is not true, all components where hittable on the Spider, even when aiming at the edge of those components. Prior to this patch the hit boxes followed the physical mesh, which is complicated and spindly. It seems more likely what they've done is only added a simple bounding box that covers all the little projections that stick out - plus all the airspace between and around those bits. I guess we will no longer see shots passing between the Spider arms and torso, or the head and JJ ports, as shots hitting the airspace here will register on the adjacent component.
I still have to test it, but it's not going to make much difference to 5Ds at least, given that the most effective loadouts in that chassis are for sniping. PGI should have reduced the bounding boxes on rocks and hills, that would make more difference to Spider-5D death rates.

[Dimento Graven]

William Mountbank, on 20 November 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Except this is not true, all components where hittable on the Spider, even when aiming at the edge of those components. Prior to this patch the hit boxes followed the physical mesh, which is complicated and spindly. It seems more likely what they've done is only added a simple bounding box that covers all the little projections that stick out - plus all the airspace between and around those bits. I guess we will no longer see shots passing between the Spider arms and torso, or the head and JJ ports, as shots hitting the airspace here will register on the adjacent component.

We'll have to just be in disagreement here. You don't invest the cost of programmers and testers to fix, 'nothing'. Pretty much the evidence has been posted, PGI found something wrong, and has made a change to address it.

Quote

I still have to test it, but it's not going to make much difference to 5Ds at least, given that the most effective loadouts in that chassis are for sniping. PGI should have reduced the bounding boxes on rocks and hills, that would make more difference to Spider-5D death rates.

Yes, the rocks, hills, and other terrain objects (buildings, cars, et al) should be looked into as well. It's like they reach out, 20 feet beyond their 'drawn' location and block.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 20 November 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[William Mountbank]

Dimento Graven, on 20 November 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

You don't invest the cost of programmers and testers to fix, 'nothing'. Pretty much the evidence has been posted, PGI found something wrong, and has made a change to address it.

So PGI never devote resources to fixing 'nothing'? Plenty of evidence has been posted showing problems with HSR, and the change PGI seem to have made clearly shows that there was nothing particularly wrong. The biggest difference seems to be that Spiders will now take slightly more leg damage and slightly less CT damage, as will the Atlas.
I am certain that people who were reporting that stationary Spiders do not take damage will find no changes to their gaming experience in this patch.

But anyway, now that PGI have 'fixed' it, all the future forum tears will be crocodile ones.