40 replies to this topic

[Genesis Rex]

The reason why an ECM mech isn't affected by a PPC that they mount is likely due to the design of the PPC.  What would be the point of carrying a weapon that caused the user to suffer electrical backlash.  I would imagine that a PPC is shielded from the adverse effects it bestows upon its target.

That being said I think that ECM is fine in its current iteration.  What is lacking--more often then not--is the teamwork needed to counter the ECM bubble.  MWO is definitely not a game where single players are an army unto themselves. [REDACTED]
EDIT: Having read through a few more of the posts I can see what you mean when you say that information warfare in MWO is shallow.  However, the devs only have a finite amount of resources to build the systems we all want to see, and I'd like to believe that the current iteration of BAP and ECM are merely placeholders to a more comprehensive system.  If they aren't, though, I can also see why they are so shallow.  MWO needs to be accessible to the general public, and if I were a player new not only to this game but Battletech as a whole I'd be overwhelmed with the amount of information I need to take into account.  Unfortunately an F2P game based on a storied franchise cannot appeal only to the hardcore fans, it must also cater to the lowest common denominator; I think that PGI is doing a decent job handling the balance between the two.

Edited by Genesis Rex, 21 October 2013 - 01:20 PM.

[Wolfways]

Just remove the anti-lock feature!

[focuspark]

ECM is broken, always has been, always will be so long as Paul has a job as PGI.

That said, this is not the solution.

[JSparrowist]

Good idea OP....and where did I put my troll spray? Somehow I doubt it's strong enough for Vassago though.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

ECM is countered by:

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.

For a few seconds after each successful hit.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

3) BAP.

Partially. Unless there's been an unannounced change, Beagle-countered ECM still increases lockon and scanning times drastically.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

4) advanced sensor range.

...no it isn't.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

5) enemy ECM set to counter.

True.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

6) TAG.

Incompletely and vastly more detectably, and only on the target currently being hit with the blinky light.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

7) Narc.

Partially, poorly, and temporarily, and only on the beacon-carrier.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

8) blowing up the carrier's left torso.

Heehee. True, -AND- amusing.

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

9) UAV.

While ECM may not be precisely overpowered, it certainly isn't underpowered. Particularly not given how necessary many players treat it as being.

[Vassago Rain]

Elli Gujar, on 21 October 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

While ECM may not be precisely overpowered, it certainly isn't underpowered. Particularly not given how necessary many players treat it as being.

I've been playing phoenix mechs exclusively for the past 6 days. ECM isn't 'necessary,' or uber OP. It's a nice thing to have, but right now, it's more underpowered than overpowered, because everything counters it.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 21 October 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[sC4r]

at OP your thought is not good idea as it would add another gimmick into game and only limit very limited choice of loadouts that carry ecm

besides ecm has lots of counters :

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

ECM is countered by:

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) BAP.
4) advanced sensor range.
5) enemy ECM set to counter.
6) TAG.
7) Narc.
8) blowing up the carrier's left torso.
9) UAV.

this pretty much sums it... all those are either soft or hard counters to ecm except for narc which does nothing against ecm mechs

and this is wrong

Quote

Partially. Unless there's been an unannounced change, Beagle-countered ECM still increases lockon and scanning times drastically.

if you get BAP in 180m range of ECM you will shut down that ECM with all its benefits(if the target ecm is in disrupt mode)... only thing about bap is if you have both ECM and BAP equiped your ecm overrides BAP so if you get into 180 range of enemy mech with ECM in disrupt mode you will only disrupt him (so no counter happens)

Edited by sC4r, 21 October 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Mystere]

R Razor, on 20 October 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

Or, and here's a thought that may be foreign to you, common sense could be applied and, since the electronic discharge from a PPC is what causes ECM to be disrupted on a target mech, the fact that the Electronic discharge is going to be as strong, or stronger, at its point of origin can and should cause the same effect.

Vassago does have a point. There are already a number of counters to ECM.

Also, as to why an ECM carrier does not suffer the same effects while firing their own PPCs, that can easily be rationalized as the weapon possessing some built-in active/passive shielding that protects the Mech firing it (i.e. fluff). This fluff works even better in the case of the ERPPC.

Quote

I realize you folks that can't play without a hiding tool might not like it, but it makes sense whether you agree or not.

Do you automatically insult people whose opinions disagree with you?

Edited by Mystere, 21 October 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[RandomLurker]

None of the counters to ECM are reliable is the problem. Others have explained specific systems. I'll give an example.

Situation: An Atlas DDC covering a small group of heavy/assault mechs during a flanking manuever behind the enemy battle line. Advantages: 100% missile immunity, 100% radar immunity, 100% scout immunity (unless the scout types or it's a premade)

Counter: PPC. Result: you are exposed to fire, it doesn't work if you miss, and only works for 4 seconds.

Counter: TAG. Result: only works on one mech, requires you to be exposed to fire at all times. You are destroyed within seconds by the rest of the assault lance.

Counter: NARC. Lol.

Counter: BAP. Result: only works within 120m. You are destroyed in seconds by the assault lance.

Counter: UAV. Result: you just lost 30-50% of your C-bill gains for that match, assuming you even win.

Counter: Destroying left torso. Result: Works as advertised. Good luck doing that to a DDC before his buddies disintegrate you though.


IMO, those counters are far too weak and have far too many vulnerabilities. The ECM, in turn, gives 100% effective missile protection and 100% effective information denial. ECM mechanics need to be scrapped and redone from the ground up.

Edited by RandomLurker, 21 October 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

RandomLurker, on 21 October 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

None of the counters to ECM are reliable is the problem. Others have explained specific systems. I'll give an example.

Situation: An Atlas DDC covering a small group of heavy/assault mechs during a flanking manuever behind the enemy battle line. Advantages: 100% missile immunity, 100% radar immunity, 100% scout immunity (unless the scout types or it's a premade)

Counter: PPC. Result: you are exposed to fire, it doesn't work if you miss, and only works for 4 seconds.

Counter: TAG. Result: only works on one mech, requires you to be exposed to fire at all times. You are destroyed within seconds by the rest of the assault lance.

Counter: NARC. Lol.

Counter: BAP. Result: only works within 120m. You are destroyed in seconds by the assault lance.

Counter: UAV. Result: you just lost 30-50% of your C-bill gains for that match, assuming you even win.

Counter: Destroying left torso. Result: Works as advertised. Good luck doing that to a DDC before his buddies disintegrate you though.


IMO, those counters are far too weak and have far too many vulnerabilities. The ECM, in turn, gives 100% effective missile protection and 100% effective information denial. ECM mechanics need to be scrapped and redone from the ground up.

So if you know that the DDC is out there with his cloak of skill, then...what's stopping you from shooting them? Because once the secret's out that there's a warboss leading his boyz around, the ECM is virtually useless. You shoot PPCs at the atlas, and he then gets LRM'd to a smoking pile.

Come of it already. ECM might have been godtier when it was first added, but right now, it's basically weaksauce. All those counters aside, you can see ECM mechs with seismic, anyway, so even the cloak of skill isn't that useful anymore.

This whole thread is just another bucket of people who need to get good.

[GalaxyBluestar]

DocBach, on 21 October 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

The counters aren't the problem, its the shallowness of information warfare, which was advertised as a huge component to the game. That BAP you put on your mech could do so much more besides be a linear counter to ECM.

In fact, BAP is suppose to be so useful that ECM exists to block it. BAP should work similar to seismic sensors as well as give you the option of a more detailed loadout of an enemy to spot weaknesses ("Hey, this dude only carries 12 armor and has two tons of MG ammo in his left leg!") ECM blocks this. Even more advanced rules allow Beagle to drop sensor pods to monitor areas -- pods that are blocked by ECM.

ECM conversely is suppose to have expanded ability to spoof radar in the form of ghost targets, which flood enemy sensors with false information - they also take 'Mechs longer to gain locks, so it still functions as a missile deterrent, but not an all out anti-missile system. It also loses its ability to protect against Beagle's abilities in this mode, and Beagle can see through false targets.

So in a way, they are yin and yang to each other in a much deeper way than we get.

this game... i was hoping for this game.

[CrashieJ]

There are too many Hard-Counters, not enough Soft-Ones

ECM is countered by:

1) PPC. (Hard Counter)
2) ER PPC. (Hard Counter)
3) BAP. (Hard counter)
4) advanced sensor range. (Soft Counter)
5) enemy ECM set to counter.(Hard Counter)
6) TAG. (Soft Counter)
7) Narc. (Soft Counter)
8) blowing up the carrier's left torso. (Hard Counter)
9) UAV. (Hard Counter)

a game is best when you have more soft counters than hard.

risk and reward

[KharnZor]

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

ECM is countered by:

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) BAP.
4) advanced sensor range.
5) enemy ECM set to counter.
6) TAG.
7) Narc.
8) blowing up the carrier's left torso.
9) UAV.

ECM is not a factor. Much like the OP.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Vassago Rain, on 21 October 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thread is just another bucket of people who need to get good.

well speaking for myself i entirely agree ecm has little presence and has little effect to the fight, seriously lrm boats are coming back in dribbles and ppc's are still spoiling the warlordz. however what we have now is a mess of pgi's own making, a tangled web they have woven themselves when we all know the whole structure should've been tottally different. really i'd only agree to a rework/nerf to ecm if the whole weapons and equipment were reworked. it's not going to happen. there's just to much stuff to roll back but we all know the weapons equipment functionality in the game needs a lot of...

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 21 October 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

well speaking for myself i entirely agree ecm has little presence and has little effect to the fight, seriously lrm boats are coming back in dribbles and ppc's are still spoiling the warlordz. however what we have now is a mess of pgi's own making, a tangled web they have woven themselves when we all know the whole structure should've been tottally different. really i'd only agree to a rework/nerf to ecm if the whole weapons and equipment were reworked. it's not going to happen. there's just to much stuff to roll back but we all know the weapons equipment functionality in the game needs a lot of...

I agree with this, but PGI won't roll anything back, for better or worse.

[Arcturious]

Honestly, the biggest 'counter' to ECM is to use your stock loadout, Mark 1 eyeballs.

What actually needs to happen, is every mech gets a free ECM for a few weeks.

PGI then needs to turn off the targeting systems. All pilots will need to train themselves to recognise movement, damaged components, heat levels and the like just by looking at the enemy mech.

The number of times I've been spectating and seen people just ignore an ECM mech is soul shattering. My text in chat goes something like:

Me: There is a D-DC in B4
Me (Dead after fighting off 6 mechs alone under the ECM): 3-4 under ECM in B4
Me: Dudebroxx - there is an ECM atlas shooting you. In the face. 100m in front of you
(Dudebroxx has been killed by Invisibleman)
Me: Ok, Someotherguy. Look to your left. D-DC shooting you from B4.
(Someotherguy has been killed by Invisibleman)
Game Ends.

Please just don't assume if there is no red target that no target exists. If it isn't Blue and it moves, you can kill it.

Look around, check your corners, watch your flanks. Don't run ahead until you have identified the locations of at least 75% of the enemy force. If there is 5+ mechs unaccounted for, take a second to think about where they might be.

ECM is not the mind killer. Only your own complacency is at fault if an ECM mech kills you.

Edited by Arcturious, 21 October 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[nemesis271989]

R Razor, on 20 October 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

I doubt this is the first time anyone has had this idea, but I haven't seen it posted anywhere so what the hell.

If getting hit with a PPC disrupts ECM and causes it to shut down for a period of time, why not have ECM equipped mechs that carry PPC's suffer the same fate?

For instance, if I am running my D-DC and elect to carry one or two PPC's on it, then why not have my ECM shut down for the same length of time that my ECM shrouded targets does when I hit him if I fire my PPC?

I realize it's not a game breaking change, but it would add a touch more "realism" to the mechanic in my opinion.

Hate ECM so much?

Your idea makes no sense because being hit by charged particles and emit charged particles into a certain direction is actually not the same thing.

[xengk]

So the suggestion is equivalent to when someone fires a gun, an identical bullet should also shot out from the opposite end of the gun into the shooter. Just for realism sake of course.

[Karl Streiger]

OK guys you had your fun - be nice to each other or leave the house.

I'ts bizarre that PPC's disable ECM for a short period - but don't effect Lock On, MinMaps or other electronic components
- it is more bizarre that my targeting system is not able to spot a 100chunck of ceramics and fusion with an extreme temperature - and give that thing a mark.

The ECM mechanism is snafu from its very beginning - so any suggestion and any counter you can mind off has to be snafu too.

[Mystere]

Karl Streiger, on 22 October 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

I'ts bizarre that PPC's disable ECM for a short period - but don't effect Lock On, MinMaps or other electronic components

If only PPCs also had those effects. But, I can already imagine the vast QQ such buffs on the weapon will create.