40 replies to this topic

[R Razor]

I doubt this is the first time anyone has had this idea, but I haven't seen it posted anywhere so what the hell.

If getting hit with a PPC disrupts ECM and causes it to shut down for a period of time, why not have ECM equipped mechs that carry PPC's suffer the same fate?

For instance, if I am running my D-DC and elect to carry one or two PPC's on it, then why not have my ECM shut down for the same length of time that my ECM shrouded targets does when I hit him if I fire my PPC?

I realize it's not a game breaking change, but it would add a touch more "realism" to the mechanic in my opinion.

[Vassago Rain]

No.

ECM is weak enough as it is.

[Vassago Rain]

R Razor, on 20 October 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

By that statement alone you show your complete ignorance of the game and the mechanics behind it, your opinion is worth less than the electrons traveling through the ether that allowed it to be shared...........go away troll.

ECM is countered by:

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) BAP.
4) advanced sensor range.
5) enemy ECM set to counter.
6) TAG.
7) Narc.
8) blowing up the carrier's left torso.
9) UAV.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Yeah nerf them PPC Atlases with their overpowered low mounted hardpoints!

[R Razor]

It's not an Atlas nerf.........in fact it's not a nerf of any kind..........it just a tweak to a game mechanic to bring a little more realism to the game. I run a D-DC frequently, sometimes with ER-PPC's and sometimes with other weapons so I have no vested interest in removing the effectiveness of that mech. I also only own a single mech with LRM's so I have no vested interest in completely nerfing ECM.

I'd just like to see some realism and balance added to it that's all. Right now blob moving under ECM renders up to 1200 TONS of metal invisible and that sir is far from realistic. Hell even todays ECM equipped aircraft aren't invivisble beyond line of sight, they just can't be locked effectively, you still have an idea of where they are within a circle of probability.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Yeah I understand your point of view... But if you add that realism it would mean that no-one would use PPC's on ECM mechs again. That in the other hand would basically mean that ECM mechs are "banned" from using PPC's. Why? Realism?

With lots of counters to ECM (listed by Vassago) and already increased PPC heat values, I just don't see the point in this gameplaywise.

[IceLom]

Realisticly when they designed the PPC i am sure they designed in some kind of shielding on the weapon itself to stop it from destroying the ECM on its carrier.

By your logic each time you fire a ballistic it should provide just as much kinetic destruction to the mech firing it... However the designers of theses weapons built in recoil mechanics that dissipate the kinetic energy. Is it so far fetch that realistically something would have been done with ppc's to stop them from breaking ecm on the firing mech?

Changing game mechanics to fit your sense of realism should not be a top priority of the dev team, end of thread.

[Kazairl]

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

ECM is countered by:

4) advanced sensor range.

I don't know that one. How does the Advanced Sensor Range module effect ECM?

[CheeseThief]

It increases the gap in sensor blackout from 180-200m to 180-250m.



The ECM suit needs to overall be less about hard counters, less hard countering lock-on missiles and less getting hard countered by everything thats not a missile in return. This proposed change just adds another hard counter to the already hard countered pile, and it won't achieve much anyway because everyone that uses the offending combo will just swtich the PPC's with ER Large Lasers.


Also the whole point of the ERPPC is that it has enough shielding to negate the feedback, hence why it has no minimum range.

Edited by CheeseThief, 21 October 2013 - 12:48 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

When ECM was first put into the game, the forums were on fire for several months with players pissed off at how it was implemented. From the beginning it was a 1.5 ton game changer that seriously impacted the entire game that no one was happy with. Instead of fixing it, they started handing out small counters to it, like PPC's turning it off for a limited time, or TAG allowing you to target a mech in ECM. The only 100 percent reliable counter was itself, in counter mode, and then it mattered how many you brought as 1 unit could only counter 1 unit. Eventually they gave BAP the ability to counter it at short range, but only after players had been begging for it forever. Even with those 'counters' it is still one of the most important items to bring to a match, and every mech that can carry one always does, its just that good. People have been begging for a better electronic warfare aspect to the game, and threw out pages of decent ideas and mods to make, but all of it was basically ignored by PGI. Once they get their minds set, it would be easier to stop the world spinning then get them to change their mind.

[Cybermech]

I think you missed Vassago's point, there is plenty of anti ECM in this game.
Not enough people equip BAPs and Tags which allows you to do what you want
I always put on a BAP, lost on why so many others don't.

You might want to read Vassago's posts again and apologise to him for taking the time and effort to reply to your thread.
Information is Ammunition.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Cybermech, on 21 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

I think you missed Vassago's point, there is plenty of anti ECM in this game.
Not enough people equip BAPs and Tags which allows you to do what you want
I always put on a BAP, lost on why so many others don't.

You might want to read Vassago's posts again and apologise to him for taking the time and effort to reply to your thread.
Information is Ammunition.

a} equipment and counter equipment is poorly documented. lrn to move and jj end of learning about mwo.

b} causs everyone knows mech warrior where ecm wasn't a hardcounter to radar and missles. everyone doesn't remember bap being a counter to that by being eccm and all the other counters are arbitary in design.

simply: ecm = oh what a tangled web we weave.

btw op, poor suggestion is poor and pgi have stuck with this system for months and were adament ever since the ecm inception nearly a year ago. nothing's going to change for the better with this idea for info warfare saddly.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 21 October 2013 - 03:09 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

You know that the jack is out of his box - when some one ask about ECM - saw the topic and thought - well were ist the list of counters and the same old story that it is not OP.

And well I wasn't dissappointed.
Frankly ECM is {Scrap} - a very important part of information warfare - made to powerfull in its first instance and instead of tweaking there were made half a dozen of hard counters.

I say - when PPC can blow up ECM cover? Or when I'm able to TAG the ECM carrier... why can't any weapon fire disable the ECM field....

I will stay at my opinion ECM mechanic is {Scrap} - even when they bring 100 hard counters that the ECM will become an expensive waste of tonnage.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

6) TAG.

Hmm, what's the current supposed working model, tagged targets can be locked as normal? At least that's how I remember it was supposed to work.
I have had a couple encounters where I've been chasing some ecm lights with a tag and still unable to achieve ssrm lock. Could have been an issue with multiple ecm fields though, but as far as I understand tag should cut through it?
Frankly this whole ecm thing is so convoluted that one gets confused, but poor documentation isn't something new for mwo.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I'm all for more variety on the battlefield and a tweak of something as mandatory as ECM would be welcome here. ECM is on 99% of mecs because LRMs finally hurt, but nobody uses LRMs now because everyone else ECM. It's like PGI just can't win no matter which crowd they try and please.

[Lykaon]

Vassago Rain, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

ECM is countered by:

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) BAP.
4) advanced sensor range.
5) enemy ECM set to counter.
6) TAG.
7) Narc.
8) blowing up the carrier's left torso.
9) UAV.

Countered and mitigated are not the same and none of these "counters" justify the over featured ECM we have in MWo.
The mere fact that we can list a pile of "counters" against one item in game shows me that PGI has wasted way to much time pounding square pegs into round holes.

PPC/ER-PPC require you to hit the ECM mech to effect ECM.Conversely ECM effects penetrate all terrain features and are 100% functional within 180m of the ECM.You do not have to be seen to project ECM.If you are not seen you can not be hit by PPCs.

I would argue that this feature of ECM functionality counters the counter of PPCs.
Also,to effectivley counter ECM requires you to hit every ECM mech every 4 seconds continuously for the length of the match. so pretty much impossible if multiple ECM are working in tandum.

BAP as a counter to ECM has effictivley created a 1.5 ton 400k c-bill 2 crit tax to be applied to any mechs that wish to have a hard counter to ECM.BAP only helps the mech carring it it does not project it's abilities to any friendlies within a magic bubble of awesome like ECM does yet takes the same weight/crit/c-bills.Not that BAP has much impact in compareson to ECM.

And the real kick in the pants is ECM counters ECM better than BAP does AND has all of those other features. BAP counters at 120m ECM counters at 180m.

Advanced sensor range modules? really you counted this as a counter? It's a weak mitigation at best reducing ECM stealth by what is it? 20%?

And no mention of the massive GXP and C-bill cost and the neccessity to use up a module slot that would have been used on something to improve upon your personal playstyle but instead needs to used to bearly put a dent in ONE of ECM's features.
Another ECM "tax" levied against us in the form of gxp/c-bills/module slot use.

ECM set to counter,A great example as it illistrates my point.ECM is a force multiplyer that not only multiplies it's own value but is also a hard counter to it's self.More ECM is always better and the best counter to more ECM is bring even more ECM.
Info warfare is all about more ECM and has replaced any intricate support electionic interactions with a simple formula of ECM+ECM+ECM......This is a clear illistration of a garbage game system and poor design.

TAG is not a hard counter it's a mitigator.TAG does not prevent ECM broadcasting from effecting mechs that are not TAGed.This of course means to "counter" ECM every enemy mech effected by friendly ECM must be TAG'ed simultaniously.
Also,as I stated with PPCs ECM broadcast does not require LOS or exposure to the enemy to benifit your team.
And finally TAG is hard countered by ECM if the ECM is within 180m of the TAGing unit that unit is not sharing sensor data.

NARC? NARC? no seriously NARC?when was the last time I saw one of these on the battlefield? maybe back in closed beta once or twice.

Ok NARC.Takes up a missile hardpoint so reduces availability of weapons.Uses ammo so as such has limited uses and ammo explodes so risk on top of that.You need to hit the ECM mech with a short range slow moving munition not so easy against most of the ECM mechs.Oh and unless I missed something ECM hard counters NARC.oh and get's shot off.

Blowing up the ECM location... Not such a valid tactic vs spiders that bearly register hits or any of the 140+kph moving ECM mechs.Maybe a bad DDC pilot may get taken with this but honestly,as I said before ECM does not require exposure to enemy fire to project it's benifits.Frequently by the time the team under friendly ECM comes under fire they have already gained a telling advantage from the stealth effects to get to where they are now.

UAV a one use item that is visable to everyone and can be shot down has the ability to remove ECM effects within it's own stationary radious.You gain this benifit at the cost of a module slot and 15mc or 40k c-bills.

And guess what? it's countered by moving out of the range or shooting it.All mechs can move and pretty much all mechs shoot.UAV is countered by the existance of an enemy that can pay attention.So not exactaly a hard counter it's a situational counter measure at best (but one of my favorites to use) The price prevents wide spread use so don't count on these.


Presence of "counters" does nothing to change the fact that ECM is packed full of features that have potent effects on the battle and all of them function passivly and are projected to non ECM equiped team mates.

[General Taskeen]

PGI made ECM and Heat Sink design specifically to aggravate people that like stock Mechs. Like myself.

[DocBach]

Cybermech, on 21 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

I think you missed Vassago's point, there is plenty of anti ECM in this game.
Not enough people equip BAPs and Tags which allows you to do what you want
I always put on a BAP, lost on why so many others don't.

The counters aren't the problem, its the shallowness of information warfare, which was advertised as a huge component to the game. That BAP you put on your mech could do so much more besides be a linear counter to ECM.

In fact, BAP is suppose to be so useful that ECM exists to block it. BAP should work similar to seismic sensors as well as give you the option of a more detailed loadout of an enemy to spot weaknesses ("Hey, this dude only carries 12 armor and has two tons of MG ammo in his left leg!") ECM blocks this. Even more advanced rules allow Beagle to drop sensor pods to monitor areas -- pods that are blocked by ECM.

ECM conversely is suppose to have expanded ability to spoof radar in the form of ghost targets, which flood enemy sensors with false information - they also take 'Mechs longer to gain locks, so it still functions as a missile deterrent, but not an all out anti-missile system. It also loses its ability to protect against Beagle's abilities in this mode, and Beagle can see through false targets.

So in a way, they are yin and yang to each other in a much deeper way than we get. It's pretty funny that Beagle lacks any of its abilities that it's suppose to have, to be useful enough to have an entire system dedicated to blocking it, but in MWO everything is backwards like some Bizarro world.

The problem with ECM, and extension the information warfare in this game isn't that it's overpowered or underpowered, the problem is that it is shallow, uninteresting and lazy. Information warfare boils down to gaining missile locks and is done by the individual rather than dedicated information warfare 'Mechs.

Edited by DocBach, 21 October 2013 - 05:53 AM.

[wintersborn]

I don't think that adding a mechanic that counters your own ECM when you fire your PPC is a good idea but I understand the logic.
I would like to see BAP counter ALL ECM's in its range so there there are less Spider gang rapes.
Also they should increase the range of TAG to 1000m.

[General Taskeen]

Cybermech, on 21 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

I always put on a BAP, lost on why so many others don't.

Take a look at these Mechs in TT, none of them require BAP to fire missiles or other nonsense to fire at an ECM Mech in Line of Sight:

http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/4456.pdf (CPLT-C1)
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/5733.pdf (AS7-S)
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/2656.pdf (LCT-3S)
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/4455.pdf (CPLT-A1)
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3993.pdf (DV-7D)
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3525.pdf (BJ-2)