39 replies to this topic

[1Sascha]

This gun has gone from useless to kinda useful to mostly useless.

Don't get me wrong: I know it has to have the jamming drawback (or *some* drawback) or it'd be way OPed.

But:

How about making the jamming mechanic a bit more "realistic" and less random?

As it is now, this thing either turns you into a serial-killer or is 9+ tons of dead weight you lug around. I'm talking about the "jam after 1 shot, fire another shot then jam again"-phenomenon, which I get quite regularly with it. This is highly annoying, especially since it *seems* like this is decided at match start. Kinda like a roll of the dice that happens before launch: 1-3: Gun will work (sort of), 4-6: Gun will jam after one shot repeatedly.
And AFAIK trigger discipline doesn't even enter the equation right now. I do get this behavior even when I simply tap the trigger for single shots/short bursts.


What I'm suggesting is this:

Leave an element of chance in there, but make the jam-frequency more dependent on usage. Meaning that the longer you hold the trigger down, the more likely a jam will be. A jam after a single shot should be next to impossible, and with each consecutive shot, the jamming probability should increase. You'd still get the *occasional* jam after short bursts (3-4 shots), but it should happen more frequently during medium or long bursts.

To offset lower jamming-probability, we could take it a step further and make the gun less accurate. According to BT-lore, the jams happen due to the gun's excessive vibrations.. which should also interfere with accuracy.


Oh, and yes: Why is this thing represented as a rotary-cannon? I'm not a gunsmith, but I'm fairly certain rotary cannons/MGs do not jam. Due to their construction, a misfire will result in, well, nothing.. the unfired round will simply be ejected like a spent cartridge, once the barrel it's in rotates past the ejection port.

They could be meant to be feed-jams I guess, but how would you unjam those in the first place and why would they even occur in 3050. Colt sorted those out on the very first Gatling guns in the late 19th century..



S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 21 October 2013 - 02:52 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

I actually very much like your idea!
Though I miss the old UAC5 a lot...
I think it was nerfed almost to useless, compared to it's old personality...
No - don't get me wrong - it's still sorta good now, but it has lost about 1/3 of it's DPS potential.
I was ok with the less ammo per ton, the extra weight and heat - I actually found them as a good ballance...
As I liked to gamble my luck against my life - I had some of the best games in my life...
Now... meeh - the longer CD makes the jamming A LOT more punishing, especially, as the OP sidenoted, when it occurs on the first or the second shot...
I doubt that there were anyone in this game who loved the UAC5 more than me - seriously
Now... I don't even look at them...
I like the idea about gradual jamming chance increasing - it could make it better, at least - in my eyes

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure, but I believe the animation doesn't show a rotation. Anyway, that's real tech, not battletech. In Battletech, even the rotary cannons can jam! It's the (poorly researched*) 80s science fiction.

Regarding the Jam - I would also like a more predictable jamming system. Fire x shots, and you jam. The "x" should be a number that makes it a meaningful choice. for example, if you actually fire x shots or less, it's good to double shot, but if the engagement continues beyond x+jam time, it would have been better to single shot...So you need to judge the situation to make the right choice.


*) That's a bit harsh: Remember, in the 80s, we didn't have wikipedia or google. Or gun nuts websites. The singularity has already happened. We crossed the event horizon when we got access to google and wikipedia, and knew how to use them.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 21 October 2013 - 02:25 AM.

[1Sascha]

Quote

I am not sure, but I believe the animation doesn't show a rotation.

They don't rotate on the Jäger... but check out a UAC5 on a Shadow Hawk. ..


S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 21 October 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Krubarax]

Remember.
UAC-5 is only ONE ton heavier than regular AC-5
It is not supposed to be a UBER POWER GUN - because it would make the AC5 pointless.

It is a calculated risk, taking the UAC5
you *could* get a lot of damage out of it
or you *could* be lugging around a 9 ton +ammo dead weight.

If you do not like it
roll with regular AC5's

I love the UAC5 and I think it needs no buff

[TexAce]

1Sascha, on 21 October 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

They don't rotate on the Jäger... but check out a UAC5 on a Shadow Hawk. ..


S.

I could swear I already sawe mine on the jäger rotating. only when shot and only thrid spin though, so not constantly.

[FinsT]

So, the core of the idea is to reduce unpredictability of UAC/5, and to balance it by decreasing the weapon's accuracy, right?

If so, i am against this. Here's why. See, unpredictability is exactly what gives UAC/5 quite higher DPS than AC/5 (something like 35% higher DPS on _average_ assuming ~8-seconds-long-on-average fire "sessions" before hopping back to cover - since UAC/5 is obviously a weapon of "pop out shoot some lead, hide, unjam, rinse repeat"). This unpredictability, if reduced, indeed demands reduction of DPS to compensate. Whether such DPS drop would be done through reducing accuracy (so less shots landed = less real DPS), or simply by reducing DPS itself, - doesn't matter. Because in either case, end result would be a weapon which is somewhere "in between" AC/5 and UAC/5. More predictable than current UAC/5, but less predictable than AC/5; less DPS (both average and max possible) than current UAC/5, but more than AC/5.

But, to get this result, there is no need to re-design UAC/5; because you can easily fine-tune between higher DPS and predictability, in many cases, by simply mixing UAC/5s and AC/5s together in various proportions. 3 UAC/5 Jager, or 2 UAC/5 + 1 AC/5 jager, or 1 UAC/5 + 3 AC/5 jager, etc etc. And if we talk about builds which use only 1 AC/5 or UAC/5, - well, for these it's not a main weapon anyways; so yes, only two possible choices, - but then it's most likely a secondary weapon, so not any real big deal anyways. And if we talk about 1 UAC/5 vs 2 AC/5 due to slot restrictions, then DPS-wise, dual AC/5 is _always_ better anyways (so, tonnage allowing, phoenix battlemaster should always go with 2xAC/5).

P.S. You hear that from a guy who did 1000+ shots outta UAC/5s in testing grounds, counting jams and after-1st-shot jams; and i know basics of probability theory, too. My result is: jam chance 11.65% +-0.4%, totally independant, after every individual shot. But, of course, random is random, and sometimes you get it jamming often, other times it goes for 50+ shots with only one jam - for 40+ with none. It's just the human mind which tries to seek patterns even where can't be any - only fluctuations of randomness creating sequences which sometimes resemble a pattern; but every time, with large enough sample, all percieved signs of any "pattern" - disappear. Nature made our minds to seek patterns because when there _are_ patterns, - it's important for survival; but nature made a bit too good work at it, "just to be safe", so sometimes we get "false positives"...

Edited by FinsT, 21 October 2013 - 03:21 AM.

[1Sascha]

TexAss, on 21 October 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

I could swear I already sawe mine on the jäger rotating. only when shot and only thrid spin though, so not constantly.

Ooohhhh... you are right. They do rotate on the Jäger, both in-cockpit and on external view.

Hmm.. did they change this recently? I could've sworn they weren't rotating before the Phoenix-patch...

EDIT:
I guess what I was trying to say FinsT was that these "1 shot jam, 1 shot jam, 1 shot jam"-sessions should go. I mean, it's highly anecdotal and all, but I've had multiple matches where I had literally only fired 4 or 5 rounds in total 5-6 minutes into the game, simply because all my UACs would jam up after 1 shot... again and again.

And since I know we'd need to balance this out in *some* way, I was simply trying to come up with plausible
solutions how to *counter* an increase in reliability.

*shrug*

Another idea would be to increase jamming chance if you run more than one UAC. More guns = more overall vibration = more jams. Accordingly they could also increase jam chances if you're on the move. Again: More vibration = more jams.






S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 21 October 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Phra]

That is why you take three of them. By the time they all jam, the enemy mech is nothing but a smoking pile of metal scrap

[Curccu]

Usually weapon jamming is random...

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I agree the UAC5 went back to being useless sadly, but something had to be done because 15%, long range, and pinpoint accuracy was stupid OP.

My suggestion has been to increase the weight of the weapon slightly to 10 tons, increase the ammo per ton slightly to 400 per ton, and half the damage per pellet to 2.5 while giving it a 10% jam rate and more spread.

The UAC5 should be like a Mgun that fires at quarter the rate and double the range IMO, not a rapid fire blow dart gun like PGI made it out to be. Plus some players might even be able to hit a spider for once with it.

[Curccu]

lockwoodx, on 21 October 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

I agree the UAC5 went back to being useless sadly, but something had to be done because 15%, long range, and pinpoint accuracy was stupid OP.

My suggestion has been to increase the weight of the weapon slightly to 10 tons, increase the ammo per ton slightly to 400 per ton, and half the damage per pellet to 2.5 while giving it a 10% jam rate and more spread.

The UAC5 should be like a Mgun that fires at quarter the rate and double the range IMO, not a rapid fire blow dart gun like PGI made it out to be. Plus some players might even be able to hit a spider for once with it.

What are you talking about?

[1Sascha]

Phra, on 21 October 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

That is why you take three of them. By the time they all jam, the enemy mech is nothing but a smoking pile of metal scrap

Nope.. even with 3UAC on my Jäger, I'll just stand there with just my... errr... I'm left weaponless due to excessive jamming. Used to run that build before the re-nerf and it was pretty effective. But these days, I'd rather run 4x AC5 on it.

Anyway:





S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 21 October 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[D04S02B04]

The UAC5 is already extremely powerful as it is.

Compared to AC5 and AC20, it's statistics for DPS and DPS/Ton (not incl. of ammo) are

AC5 - 3.33 DPS, 0.4167 DPS/Ton
AC20 - 5.00 DPS, 0.3571 DPS/Ton
UAC5 - 5.4583 DPS, 0.6065 DPS/Ton

There's no reason not to take the UAC5 at all. The probability table for the UAC5 is calculated as firing in double mode only with CD of 1.5sec.
80% 10 Damage 1.5sec CD
20% 5 Damage 1.5 sec CD + 5sec Unjam + 1.5sec CD (total 8 sec).

The weightage of DPS is assigned as 5.3333 x 80% + 0.125 x 20%.

Unfortunately, it IS an uber power gun.

[FinsT]

Curccu, on 21 October 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Usually weapon jamming is random...

Indeed it is. Like i said, chance to jam per shot ~11.65%. It's all in this number - and a bit of math to estimate chances of particular outcomes.

For example, Jager firing 3 UAC/5s will have:
- chance for all 3 to jam after doing just one shot: 0.1165^3 = 0.16% (one chance in ~600 attempts)
- chance for all 3 NOT to jam doing, say, 8 shots in a row: ((1-0.1165)^8)3 = 5.1% (one chance in ~20 attempts)

Which is just another way to say what Phra said above.

Edited by FinsT, 21 October 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[FinsT]

D04S02B04, on 21 October 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

The UAC5 is already extremely powerful as it is.

Compared to AC5 and AC20, it's statistics for DPS and DPS/Ton (not incl. of ammo) are

AC5 - 3.33 DPS, 0.4167 DPS/Ton
AC20 - 5.00 DPS, 0.3571 DPS/Ton
UAC5 - 5.4583 DPS, 0.6065 DPS/Ton

There's no reason not to take the UAC5 at all. The probability table for the UAC5 is calculated as firing in double mode only with CD of 1.5sec.
80% 10 Damage 1.5sec CD
20% 5 Damage 1.5 sec CD + 5sec Unjam + 1.5sec CD (total 8 sec).

The weightage of DPS is assigned as 5.3333 x 80% + 0.125 x 20%.

Unfortunately, it IS an uber power gun.

Nope, it is not. I made in-game testing of it few weeks ago. I believe your numbers are wrong: 1st, in-game testing clearly shows the jam chance is not 20%; 2nd, because of that and also because DPS - i believe, - should be calculated as "total damage" / "total time" - and not the way you do it, - i believe that actual average DPS of UAC/5 is 4.016 or so (and not 5.4583 as you claim).

Wanna know more? I've put my results into a detailed post here. Enjoy.

Edited by FinsT, 21 October 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Too bad we don't have jamming that makes more sense in a real time game

http://www.youtube.c...x-VU2RtCo#t=376

[Baldarus Jones]

Just an idea, there are three barrels shown. Could a quick three round burst, with a longer cooldown/reload work? Im thinking along the lines of the auto loader turrets from WOT.

[Navy Sixes]

Or, and this is a weird one but bear with me, we could leave it as it is and accept that the UAC is not a weapon you can plug into a spreadsheet and never will be.

You run the UAC, you pray to the jam gods and take your chances. As someone said above, if you want reliable DPS you should stick with a straight AC5.

[wintersborn]

The Jamming feature is just plain stupid, no one would field a broken weapon.
Add a spool up time and then make it over heat quickly. This would give you a second of prep time, then a lot of DPS until it heats up. It would be a burst damage weapon and the heat build up with ghost heat would prevent boating them in apha fireing.