25 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

You know a BattleMech is NOT a tank on two legs. Because it has two legs it should have incredible ability to cross uneven terrain. Even climb some cliffs or walls...

The funny thing is - it does not behave in this way.
I don't know how often you get stucked because there is a mantrap. Not even a height of a meter... and you can not cross it (the tubes on caustic valley for example)

So I really want to be able to cross such small obstacles. It shouldn't slow your mech down - or at least only a little bit - and I'm pretty sure that damage shouldn't be applied eighter.

Or what about some walls - for example at river city docks...those walls are hardly knee heigt...why can't I make a mechanical jump. Its a Mech - it should be able to do that.

I don't think that a ho without jumpjets (2m height 2m width)- would be in more as some minor cases change anything in "tactics"

But if someone uses lego brick walls to defend his realm he could explain it to me

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 October 2013 - 10:38 PM.

[The Black Knight]

I don't think a mech should be able to "hop" but there should be some kind of system in the game that allows a mech to step over things, even if a mech has to almost completely stop to do so. Like for a wall a mech should be able to slow down and take a big step over a wall or any other obstruction at or below knee height. And when collisions get brought back in this could be a pilot skill thing. If a mech runs full speed at a wall it would trip and fall over it, but if the pilot slowed down first he'd just step right over it. This would probably be the game animators worst nightmare, but it would be a much appreciated feature.

[Sandpit]

I like the sentiment behind your idea but in no way should a mech "hop" these aren't agile little humanoids (even quick moving lights), these are multi-ton battlesuits that are driven by hydraulics, motors, servos, etc. They are not in any fashion nimble of foot when it comes to replicating human movement like that. These aren't mean to be hand to hand robots they are weapons platforms. With that said, yes there needs to be some adjusting to what terrain my 100-ton walking, stomping death machine can traverse but please for the love f all that's holy when it comes to Btech do not include a "hop".

[LauLiao]

Sandpit, on 21 October 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like the sentiment behind your idea but in no way should a mech "hop" these aren't agile little humanoids (even quick moving lights), these are multi-ton battlesuits that are driven by hydraulics, motors, servos, etc. They are not in any fashion nimble of foot when it comes to replicating human movement like that. These aren't mean to be hand to hand robots they are weapons platforms. With that said, yes there needs to be some adjusting to what terrain my 100-ton walking, stomping death machine can traverse but please for the love f all that's holy when it comes to Btech do not include a "hop".

Yeah, think more "The loader from Aliens" instead of "Robotech/Macross/Gundam"

[fandre]

Add a third option to the poll: Make a climbing step.

IMO, there should be no hop but the Mechs should be able to climb above small obstacles without Jumpjets. Smaler Mechs smaller obstacles lager Mechs higher obstacles.

Edited by fandre, 21 October 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[Livewyr]

*pictures an awesome jumping up and down bouncing around an Atlas then throwing a sticky grenade and a rocket at it before bouncing away*


Umm.. no thanks. A "step up" mechanic would suffice.

[Sandpit]

in tt pilots had to make a skill roll if they tried to traverse certin terrain. Maybe they could just add in a movement penalty with a pilot skill tree that reduced or eliminated the penalty once mastered

[kuangmk11]

Sandpit, on 21 October 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like the sentiment behind your idea but in no way should a mech "hop" these aren't agile little humanoids (even quick moving lights), these are multi-ton battlesuits that are driven by hydraulics, motors, servos, etc. They are not in any fashion nimble of foot when it comes to replicating human movement like that. These aren't mean to be hand to hand robots they are weapons platforms. With that said, yes there needs to be some adjusting to what terrain my 100-ton walking, stomping death machine can traverse but please for the love f all that's holy when it comes to Btech do not include a "hop".

This is incorrect. Most are built like humanoids so they are versatile like humanoids.

They are driven by myomers:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer

There are plenty of mechs that are built for hand to hand combat
http://www.sarna.net...lee_BattleMechs

Providing they have the actuators (and limbs) they can run, sprint, jump, go prone, crawl, climb, punch, push, kick, etc. A lot even have fully articulated hands. They are pretty nimble, far more robotech than alien loader.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

from tac ops page 92

Quote

’Mechs with working hand actuators are capable of considerable
dexterity. When combined with the strength of the ’Mech and its
height, this allows them to pick up a variety of objects, carry those
objects and potentially even throw objects a considerable distance.

Think about all coordination and control it would take for an Atlas to kneel down and pick up a car without crushing it, and then to throw it.

Leaping rules are page 22 in Tac Ops book

Quote

CLIMBING AND LEAPING
The optional Climbing and Leaping rules allow BattleMechs
without jump jets to climb, leap or drop multiple levels.

Leaping is more of a special move. In TT you would never get stuck on something so there is no need for a "hop". it would be transparent, something taken into account by the terrain (movement speed modifier) of the hex you are traversing.

The solution isn't a hop mechanic, its to fix all the hang ups in the maps and make the mech automatically step over things and out of holes. Of course if you traverse such terrain at full speed you should run the risk of tripping.

[Sandpit]

kuangmk11, on 21 October 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

This is incorrect. Most are built like humanoids so they are versatile like humanoids.

They are driven by myomers:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer

There are plenty of mechs that are built for hand to hand combat
http://www.sarna.net...lee_BattleMechs

Providing they have the actuators (and limbs) they can run, sprint, jump, go prone, crawl, climb, punch, push, kick, etc. A lot even have fully articulated hands. They are pretty nimble, far more robotech than alien loader.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

from tac ops page 92


Think about all coordination and control it would take for an Atlas to kneel down and pick up a car without crushing it, and then to throw it.

Leaping rules are page 22 in Tac Ops book


Leaping is more of a special move. In TT you would never get stuck on something so there is no need for a "hop". it would be transparent, something taken into account by the terrain (movement speed modifier) of the hex you are traversing.

The solution isn't a hop mechanic, its to fix all the hang ups in the maps and make the mech automatically step over things and out of holes. Of course if you traverse such terrain at full speed you should run the risk of tripping.

You' retaking a few things out of context. In L2 and later L3 tech you see more of the mêlée combat type stuff but completely leaving out the mechanics of how it worked and just how difficult it was to perform. +4 modifiers on your rolls for stuff like this against your piloting skill. Yes they were in the game, no they were not optimal means of attack and were last-ditch efforts or ways for mechs to kick out legs as targets of opportunity. Not to mention there were plenty of restrictions on how it worked and movement modifiers that made sure it wasn't a wide spread use to replicate how difficult it was to perform. If you're going to quote TT rules and examples don't just paraphrase the parts that support your opinion. There were piloting skill rolls, movement modifiers, and restrictions in place to show how difficult it was and imply that they were not designed for things like this

[kuangmk11]

Sandpit, on 21 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

You' retaking a few things out of context. In L2 and later L3 tech you see more of the mêlée combat type stuff but completely leaving out the mechanics of how it worked and just how difficult it was to perform. +4 modifiers on your rolls for stuff like this against your piloting skill. Yes they were in the game, no they were not optimal means of attack and were last-ditch efforts or ways for mechs to kick out legs as targets of opportunity. Not to mention there were plenty of restrictions on how it worked and movement modifiers that made sure it wasn't a wide spread use to replicate how difficult it was to perform. If you're going to quote TT rules and examples don't just paraphrase the parts that support your opinion. There were piloting skill rolls, movement modifiers, and restrictions in place to show how difficult it was and imply that they were not designed for things like this

The reason for those modifiers is that you are attacking an enemy mech that is as agile as your mech is. Immobile targets are -4 to hit on a base 4 melee attack (before terrain and movement modifiers if any). Solaris uses a slightly different system using the pilot skill (the difference between your pilot skill and your enemy's added to your pilot skill) for the base to hit and the melee attack modifiers are all -1 or -2 not +4.

My point is that mechs are plenty agile enough to hop or step over small obstacles.

[Armored Yokai]

that would be the mechanical jump boosters
http://www.sarna.net...al_Jump_Booster

[Bhael Fire]

I'd have no problems with a very low and strenuous hop for non-jetted mechs...as long as it generated some exponential ghost heat each time the pilot did it so that the game wouldn't become an annoying mess of bunny-hopping mechs.

[Sandpit]

kuangmk11, on 21 October 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

The reason for those modifiers is that you are attacking an enemy mech that is as agile as your mech is. Immobile targets are -4 to hit on a base 4 melee attack (before terrain and movement modifiers if any). Solaris uses a slightly different system using the pilot skill (the difference between your pilot skill and your enemy's added to your pilot skill) for the base to hit and the melee attack modifiers are all -1 or -2 not +4.

My point is that mechs are plenty agile enough to hop or step over small obstacles.

the reason for the modifiers is for pilot skill in using the mech in an extremely awkward way. The EXACT same reason you have a movement modifier when walking over rubble

[Bhael Fire]

Cementblade, on 21 October 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

that would be the mechanical jump boosters
http://www.sarna.net...al_Jump_Booster

Not really...those are a low rent alternative to jump jets.

While I don't agree with the OP's suggestion that mechs aren't walking tanks (because that's exactly what they are!), I do agree that they should have the ability to traverse over minor obstacles like boulders and imperfections in the terrain.

Low height "hops" seems perfectly feasible for a machine that has synthetic muscle fiber running through its infrastructure (i.e. myomers). However, I think it should be very taxing on the power plant, thereby producing extra heat.

[Karl Streiger]

OK i don't matter how the "climbing" is implemented. At least i thought instead of a mechanic that has to be programmed from scratch - even the terrain - mechanism has to be coded again - (a Locust may no be able to climp over those tubes at caustic valley) - the addition of "hoping" is just a kind of JumpJet Mechanic for Mechs that don't have jump jets.

So basically the most simple fix i can imagine to get really soon a mechanic to get free of obstacles - without need to code more as some lines.

But as it was suggested i will add a "another climb method - pls explain"

[FinsT]

Sandpit, on 21 October 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like the sentiment behind your idea but in no way should a mech "hop" these aren't agile little humanoids (even quick moving lights), these are multi-ton battlesuits that are driven by hydraulics, motors, servos, etc. They are not in any fashion nimble of foot when it comes to replicating human movement like that. These aren't mean to be hand to hand robots they are weapons platforms. With that said, yes there needs to be some adjusting to what terrain my 100-ton walking, stomping death machine can traverse but please for the love f all that's holy when it comes to Btech do not include a "hop".

This!

It makes me smile to ever try to imagine, say, my jagers merrily hopping around onto "knee-tall" obstacles. 65 tons of steel and artillery shells doing some balet tricks? Very funny to me. %)

As for a way to overcome such obstacles in slow and dignified enough manner, - i say only 'mech with full arms (including at least one hand actuator) should be ones able to do it. Can't even imagine my jagers balancing on one foot while raising the other foot above knee-high; a jager is not anything like stork (a bird), - standing on one foot for any long time would - and should, - make Jager to fall down. Gyros or not.

[Karl Streiger]

FinsT, on 21 October 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

It makes me smile to ever try to imagine, say, my jagers merrily hopping around onto "knee-tall" obstacles. 65 tons of steel and artillery shells doing some balet tricks? Very funny to me. %)

Really - I don't care what you think its funny - and you shouldn't care eighter. For example I think its funny that you think a JaegerMech consists of Steel and artillery shells..(its a lot of thins but hardly anything of that is a artillery shell or even Steel)
Yes they do.
Mechs are no tanks - they have full mobility - they can do ballet as long as the pilot is good enough.

we are talking about BattleMechs - by God not about Comand n Conquer etc. Walker stuff.

following your example Mechs couldn't be able to club a Purifer with there arms out of the skye,
they shouldn't be able to controll the force they bend on a Purifer when pinning him to the ground.

At least Mechs could be able to do sidestaps, crawling, go prone - press there selfes into cover.
That you see mostly flightsticks and buttons, doesn't meant its a derviate from fighter and tank on two legs.
It is much more.

and a knee tall obstacle isn't the problem:

here a malice stomping at a Tundra Wolf
Or here a Highlander:

that thing is not DFA-ing.

they are even able to behave like humans:


Or they can't do things like that:

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 October 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[FinsT]

Oh, sure, feel free not to care about what i think is funny. In no way i say you should care about it. Was just sharing my opinion, man, - which you might or might not like and/or care about; i simply have no idea if you would.

As for your opinion about balet and stuff... Man, i agree to disagree. It's still funny to me.

P.S. Geez, i was talking figuratively. Of course 'mech are not made _only_ out of steel and artillery shells. There are electric wires and the pilot's chair, too! And many other things. Wouldn't you think i know that?

Edited by FinsT, 22 October 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[Cycleboy]

For the "hop", I'd give it a charge up and animation that messes with shooting. No-JJs, hold Space Bar... view dips down as mech bends and flexes knees... whine charge up and servos/myomer stresses against locked joints... 2 sec later *POP* a hop up and forward like a 1sec burn of 2 JJs with JJ shake of mech class applying for jump and 2 sec afterward (while mech rebalances itself). There. You are unstuck, but you don't do this in combat or for poptarting.

[FinsT]

// rationality on
Good thinking, Cycleboy. Sounds like something which could actually be implemented into the game, for sure.
// rationality off
But it's still funny to me. Even if it's, say, a Raven orsomething "light". 35 tons is a weight equivalent of ~30 typical cars piled together. To imagine this sort of mass hopping around - makes me smiling, and i can't help it. %)