95 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I know that this would not be a popular post among people that consider themselves MWO "snipers"

Well, I'm not a sniper. In 12 mans (which refers to premade, competetive team matches,) I typically brawl with my Atlas D-DC. I still find your opinion to be incorrect, and your reasoning tenuous.

For example, you registered for the forums in April of this year. This gives you a whole five months of experience. The people correcting you typically have typically been around roughly twice as long - Mungfu up there has a year on you. They've given you some concrete tactical reasons why long-range builds are worthwhile, and you are relying on a silly semantic argument which compares apples to oranges (real life snipers v. the sniper role in MWO) and demands that players stop learning to fight at long range because they're not always good at it.

In a similar fashion, your argument implies a double standard. Certainly an unskilled sniper isn't going to be much help to the team - but neither is an unskilled brawler. Often, the brawler will in fact be of less help, because he's going to try to brawl and just get slaughtered, while the sniper at least make the enemy think twice about entering his field of fire.

Your assertion that it is bad to "kill steal" by focus firing enemy battlemechs is mathematically wrong. This is bad for the team, and you are hurting your team every time you refuse to take a shot on a good target. Forum search Focus Fire and do some reading.

None of this should be misconstrued to mean that I think everyone should snipe, or that everyone should brawl. Sometimes people do play their hand too cautiously with long-range builds, to the detriment of the team. But it is simply not true that long-range builds are themselves bad, or that long-range builds harm the team.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 October 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Xmasterspy]

MungFuSensei, on 21 October 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

You're arguing the use of the term. Sniper means long range direct fire support in this game. And again, those minor numbers add up. Furthermore, Engagement ranges close eventually. Most of the fight occurs at 700-800m for snipers. At this point, they will outshoot those with shorter range weapons (whose weapons will be doing 1 or less damage, as you keep telling everyone is useless). Yes, there are some people out there that are no good with snipers yet still field them. Nothing we can do about that. Doesn't mean sniping is useless.

Being able to hurt someone while you are sitting outside of their engagement range is incredibly useful. You are either new to the game, or you are just trolling now.

I am not trolling nor new to the game, just my opinion on what I have seen in the game..

People that are shooting at or near max range are not helping the team. (and this is who i am talking about) The tiny amount of damage they do does not fool anyone that knows whats going on as suppress fire. Furthermore if someone is sniping at me, I simple move further away or ignore it. They are doing nothing for their team. We tell our lights to go get them.

Also the point of my first post was to draw attention to how damage drops quick after optimum range. Maybe stop the people that are trying to "snipe" at 2000m.

[MungFuSensei]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I am not trolling nor new to the game, just my opinion on what I have seen in the game..

People that are shooting at or near max range are not helping the team. (and this is who i am talking about) The tiny amount of damage they do does not fool anyone that knows whats going on as suppress fire. Furthermore if someone is sniping at me, I simple move further away or ignore it. They are doing nothing for their team. We tell our lights to go get them.

Also the point of my first post was to draw attention to how damage drops quick after optimum range. Maybe stop the people that are trying to "snipe" at 2000m.

You are just making a statement and not backing it up! Again, any damage is good damage. If you run to cover to avoid me damaging you, then I've slowed you up, broken up your formation, and given my team time to get into a better position. And for the umpteenth time, if two mechs meet, and one is damaged while the other is untouched, the damaged mech is at a disadvantage, however small.

[Victor Morson]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Just Stop... Really just stop. You're not a "sniper" and hurting your team trying to be one.

Lets define what a sniper is. Someone that shoots from a hidden spot to take out an enemy. They use a precision-rifle used to ensure more accurate placement of bullets at longer ranges.

Somebody is unfamiliar with the idea of hill humping 2x Gauss Jaggermechs, I see.

EDIT: Also don't confuse pug snipers (People with AC/2s and Medlas firing at extended range because they won't close) with, again, properly setup snipers (like the above configuration) that competitive teams use. Because the latter will make you regret that mistake.

Void Angel, on 21 October 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

In a similar fashion, your argument implies a double standard. Certainly an unskilled sniper isn't going to be much help to the team - but neither is an unskilled brawler. Often, the brawler will in fact be of less help, because he's going to try to brawl and just get slaughtered, while the sniper at least make the enemy think twice about entering his field of fire.

I think what he is talking about / thinks are "snipers" are those God awful frankenbuilds with like 2 range guns (LRM/10 and LBX/10 firing at 800m or something) that you just facepalm when you see are the last hope for the team. But that's a very, very narrow view.

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 October 2013 - 05:46 PM.

[Eaerie]

I "snipe" a lot if for no other reason than to attempt to force the opposing team in a direction i want, whatever direction that is. Sometimes it is in the HOPE a light comes after me so I can plow a bunch of SSRM's into his face and get him out of the fight.
Sometimes it is to force the advancing team back into cover so my team can move into position more easily.
Sometimes it is an attempt to get the team to shoot at me, my AC2 max range vs your PPC/AC20/AC10, sure i take some damage but it is a DISTRACTION allowing my team to advance more easily.

In case you haven't noticed NOTHING in this game is a 1 shot 1 kill (well except dual AC20's to a locust LOL) it is about wearing the other team down piece by piece. The is no single weapon in the game that can kill an opposing mech though unless they removed WAY to much armor to begin with.

As for "kill stealing" i dont care "steal" my kill if you have the shot on it. Get that enemy off the field so we can move on to the others. The quicker he is off the field the less harm he can do. 1 vs 1 fights are WAY overrated, I much prefer the 5 vs 1 fights tipped in my favor LOL

[Xmasterspy]

Zerberus, on 21 October 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Snipers (meaning people that actually KNOW what they are doing, not random civilians on an internet forum) are trained to put the bullet WHERE they want it, WHEN they want it.

Your apparent assumption that snipers are long range human-eradication devices that shoot to kill and only to kill is both uninformed and insulting.

Ok i am going to start troll now....

While its true I have no idea what snipers actually do in the field, I can only make the assumption (from everything I have read and seen) that they are not handing out candy and shooting rainbows at their enemys. (or their feet)

Going with your logic here now....
I find it equally uninformed and insulting that some people on a game have the nerve to call themselves snipers. Snipers (meaning people that actually KNOW what they are doing, not random civilians on an internet GAME) are trained to put the bullet WHERE they want it, WHEN they want it. /endtroll

OK I am done with this, its starting to go nowhere.

cya all on the field! HF,GL
X

[Lord of Death]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Ok i am going to start troll now....

While its true I have no idea what snipers actually do in the field, I can only make the assumption (from everything I have read and seen) that they are not handing out candy and shooting rainbows at their enemys. (or their feet)

Going with your logic here now....
I find it equally uninformed and insulting that some people on a game have the nerve to call themselves snipers. Snipers (meaning people that actually KNOW what they are doing, not random civilians on an internet GAME) are trained to put the bullet WHERE they want it, WHEN they want it. /endtroll

OK I am done with this, its starting to go nowhere.

cya all on the field! HF,GL
X

Because nobody really agrees with your foolish simpleton view. GG, bye, go get spanked in your "Brawler" as I assume you only throw punches or kicks because you're a "Brawler".....

[Xmasterspy]

Lord of Death, on 21 October 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Because nobody really agrees with your foolish simpleton view. GG, bye, go get spanked in your "Brawler" as I assume you only throw punches or kicks because you're a "Brawler".....

LOL.. you can tell you have a good argument when someone with opposing views can only only throwing insults in the end.

[Lord of Death]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

LOL.. you can tell you have a good argument when someone with opposing views can only only throwing insults in the end.

You choose to be insulted, that is not my intent. I am trying to help you stop being stupid, just like you're trying to help people stop being stupid snipers or something.

You can tell a person knows very little when they say a very lot, FYI.

[wintersborn]

Void Angel, on 21 October 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well, I'm not a sniper. In 12 mans (which refers to premade, competetive team matches,)

I assume you don't mean 12 man PUG's right?

[Xmasterspy]

Lord of Death, on 21 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

You can tell a person knows very little when they say a very lot, FYI.

What?

[Void Angel]

wintersborn, on 21 October 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

I assume you don't mean 12 man PUG's right?

...
Based on how the terms "PUG" and "12-man" have been conflated at times in this thread, clarification was needed. I 12-man with a set team of organized players.

[xengk]

stinkypuppy, on 21 October 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

i'm "kinda" a sniper. i stay behind my team and pound the enemy with guass rifles, large lasers, ppc's, LRMS, and longer range AC weapons.(like AC/2 or AC/5) however when i do this "sniping" i'm not super far behind my team and i'm usually like 300-600m away from my targets and when i'm behind my friendlies i basically mean i'm standing like 40m behind a assault mech slowly moving up with it providing precision fire support far enough behind that i'm kinda using the assault mech for cover however if the assault mech needs to reverse i get plenty of space to notice it and back up with him because i know the rage filled feeling if not being able to back up due to some ***** standing behind you.

yup, that is pretty much what support medium does in a battle.
bring extra fire power to the fight without getting yourself killed.

also 40m is too close, I generally put about 100m between bodies.

[SuomiWarder]

The advice that shooting beyond a weapon's maximum range can be not worth doing is valid.

Going all ape over the use of the term Sniper is simply silly. Mech configs set up for long range, direct fire have been termed "snipers" since at least MW4 days and probably earlier. It's just game community shorthand for a common tactical build / approach found in the game.

[Curccu]

No OP you are just wrong.

PS. Can't take dude seriously who likes his own posts.

[SUSTINET]

Between gauss rifles and AC 5's/ 2's, I have seen many a sniper/fire support mech completely turn battles and control entire sections of map. I agree that shooting beyond max range is just waste, but even that can still have a purpose, if you duck out and send all your lights to kill that one guy up in the hills, guess what? those lights have been taken away from the main fight, and you have that many less team mates backing you up, and even an AC 5 beyond max range still creates explosions when it impacts, and shakes cockpits, and causes a bit of confusion, which can also help. And there is no such thing as kill stealing in this game, its called TEAMWORK, deal with it, or find a game that is more suited to you. I have been running direct fire support mechs since closed beta, I know for a fact how incredibly useful they can be at a variety of ranges, the ability to reach out and touch someone across the map, even with 1 measly damage, is a powerful tool in any group or pug, and should not be underestimated.

Edited by SUSTINET, 22 October 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[Xmasterspy]

Void Angel, on 21 October 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

For example, you registered for the forums in April of this year. This gives you a whole five months of experience. The people correcting you typically have typically been around roughly twice as long - Mungfu up there has a year on you. They've given you some concrete tactical reasons why long-range builds are worthwhile, and you are relying on a silly semantic argument which compares apples to oranges (real life snipers v. the sniper role in MWO) and demands that players stop learning to fight at long range because they're not always good at it.

Your assertion that it is bad to "kill steal" by focus firing enemy battlemechs is mathematically wrong. This is bad for the team, and you are hurting your team every time you refuse to take a shot on a good target. Forum search Focus Fire and do some reading.

None of this should be misconstrued to mean that I think everyone should snipe, or that everyone should brawl. Sometimes people do play their hand too cautiously with long-range builds, to the detriment of the team. But it is simply not true that long-range builds are themselves bad, or that long-range builds harm the team.

Ahhh I see... So my reregistration date on the forums is now the determining factor of my skill and experience. (I am sure that I have been playing BattleTech and MechWarrior franchise longer then most here have been alive) Mungfu dose not need you to stick up for him.

I also want to point out that these people that play this kind of play style call themselves "snipers", not me! Believe me, there is no confusion on my part on the difference between real and mwo "snipers". That why I think its silly that people call themselfs that in this game. Makes no since, because there are no sniper wepons in this game.

The numbers don't lie here guys. This is a fact. After optional range weapon damage starts to decline rapidly. It always has. One Mech that breaks off from the team to try and shoot people at 2000m is effectually doing nothing. You know the guy that stand on top alpine peaks mountains and try to shoot people at sig. How effect is that guy really? 1 - 2 points of damage IF he actually hits?

I am sorry but I don't buy for one minute that Mungfu (and all off the other guys that have a earlier forum registration date) back away and hide from a player that is trying pin them down and shoot them from 2000M away. I know I don't. do you? I tell my team that there is a poptart in x# and have the lights go beat them down.

[Xmasterspy]

SUSTINET, on 22 October 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Between gauss rifles and AC 5's/ 2's, I have seen many a sniper/fire support mech completely turn battles and control entire sections of map. I agree that shooting beyond max range is just waste, but even that can still have a purpose, if you duck out and send all your lights to kill that one guy up in the hills, guess what? those lights have been taken away from the main fight, and you have that many less team mates backing you up, and even an AC 5 beyond max range still creates explosions when it impacts, and shakes cockpits, and causes a bit of confusion, which can also help. And there is no such thing as kill stealing in this game, its called TEAMWORK, deal with it, or find a game that is more suited to you. I have been running direct fire support mechs since closed beta, I know for a fact how incredibly useful they can be at a variety of ranges, the ability to reach out and touch someone across the map, even with 1 measly damage, is a powerful tool in any group or pug, and should not be underestimated.

You forgot to finish your thought before you went on your rant. ...the lights break off in a swarm and (here is what you left off) they kill the "sniper" and they are off to the next guy, or back to the main pack.

Are you telling me that when you get hit clear across the board your play style breaks down and you hide for cover? Or do you recognize that you just got shot from 2000 meters and did no damage really and move on? Is the cockpit rocking back and forth to much for you to handle? Are these people that are playing "snipers" actually effecting your game that much?

[DONTOR]

While i have tried extreme range sniping with gauss and been very accurate. It does very little for the team and yourself. I fired 50 gauss rounds from a duall gauss Jaeger on alpine at over 1500 M, hit with all but 2 (advanced zoom) and only got 300 damage and 0 kills. However when I use the same build as a close support sniper (around 500M) I get far more damage and kills, aswell as help the team out significantly more.

I understand the appeal of extreme range sniping in this game, but unfortunately it just isnt effective.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Xmasterspy, on 22 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Ahhh I see... So my reregistration date on the forums is now the determining factor of my skill and experience. (I am sure that I have been playing BattleTech and MechWarrior franchise longer then most here have been alive) Mungfu dose not need you to stick up for him.

If you think that your background knowledge of tabletop and other prior MW games is significant, please consider prefacing your next posts with "In tabletop ... " or "In MW2 ... "

Xmasterspy, on 22 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I also want to point out that these people that play this kind of play style call themselves "snipers", not me! Believe me, there is no confusion on my part on the difference between real and mwo "snipers". That why I think its silly that people call themselfs that in this game. Makes no since, because there are no sniper wepons in this game.

People can call themselves whatever they want. That's alright with me. You need to be OK with that, too. You can't police what people call themselves.

Xmasterspy, on 22 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

The numbers don't lie here guys. This is a fact. After optional range weapon damage starts to decline rapidly. It always has. One Mech that breaks off from the team to try and shoot people at 2000m is effectually doing nothing. You know the guy that stand on top alpine peaks mountains and try to shoot people at sig. How effect is that guy really? 1 - 2 points of damage IF he actually hits?

I am sorry but I don't buy for one minute that Mungfu (and all off the other guys that have a earlier forum registration date) back away and hide from a player that is trying pin them down and shoot them from 2000M away. I know I don't. do you? I tell my team that there is a poptart in x# and have the lights go beat them down.

You can argue that it's not a good tactic, but a Spider sitting up on the peak in Alpine Peak can relay very useful information to his team -- either by typing on the chatbox or through TeamSpeak, in which case you are SOL since it seems to me you do not use TeamSpeak.

PPC and lasers are not ammo restricted. So if you have a shot, why not? It's free. Does it annoy you so much that people throw laser beams with abandon? If the enemy is really that far away, you will have time to cool down anyway.

By this point you should realize that most "sniper" builds aren't so dainty that a single light, or even two, can easily beat it down.

It seems to me that you are unhappy because some players act in a way that you think is stupid, or that they call themselves a sniper when you have a narrow definition of it. The latter nobody can help you with, but the former can easily be mitigated by joining a team. Or you can just continue to complain here.

Snark aside, playing solo is not good for anybody's mental health, you'll just get frustrated and there are new suckers signing up to this game every minute.

Edited by Itsalrightwithme, 22 October 2013 - 11:37 AM.