95 replies to this topic

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

<mislead sniping bias from horribad players>

What if I told you, the best players in this game are snipers, and you have clearly never fought anyone near their cailber.


As to what you said in the below post, you are confusing terrible players that haven't the slightest clue as to what they are doing, and what actual sniping is in mechwarrior. I see this is just a matter of miscommunication. Carry on.

Edited by mwhighlander, 22 October 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[Xmasterspy]

MungFuSensei, on 21 October 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

You are just making a statement and not backing it up! Again, any damage is good damage. If you run to cover to avoid me damaging you, then I've slowed you up, broken up your formation, and given my team time to get into a better position. And for the umpteenth time, if two mechs meet, and one is damaged while the other is untouched, the damaged mech is at a disadvantage, however small.

Sure, 1 point of damage is 1 point of damage. I don't disagree.

What I disagree with (and I am not sure how to be more clear) is... I don't run and take cover or try and avoid you! You're doing about the same damage as I take in my legs from a trip/fall. You give up your "hiding" spot, you do no damage, and no one is scared. I am not sure what your argument is.

The time it takes for a "sniper" to get up the the perfect spot, line up his shot, actually hit, is sooo long that the "sniper" would have been more effective for his team to actually engage in the fight in a range that his weapons will actually do some damage...

TA-DA and we have now reached the core of the problem. "snipers" want to be uber cool and be sooooo far away to "pick" off there enemy's. The problem is... the weapons don't do enough damage at a range where these people like to snipe from to "pick" off anyone. Essentially useless.

[JeffGoldblum]

I'd love to see you on the battlefield when I have my dual gauss K2

[Xmasterspy]

Itsalrightwithme, on 22 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

If you think that your background knowledge of tabletop and other prior MW games is significant, please consider prefacing your next posts with "In tabletop ... " or "In MW2 ... "

You can argue that it's not a good tactic, but a Spider sitting up on the peak in Alpine Peak can relay very useful information to his team -- either by typing on the chatbox or through TeamSpeak, in which case you are SOL since it seems to me you do not use TeamSpeak.

LOL good post!!!

The point of bringing up old BattleTech is these types of games give penalties for shooting past max range (real dice role or programming) Its not like c.o.d where you can snip someone in the head and get the kill at max range of the weapon.

Yeah, they can call themselves what ever they want! I just have a beef with people trying to play a sniper type roll like in c.o.d and expect the same results here. It's not the same.

I think its great when a Spider gets on top of a hill and relays info to his team! Heck I even take a few pop shots for the fun of it when i get on top of a hill. What bugs me is when its not a Spider but some guy that stays up there the whole fight trying to "sniper" the whole round.. Missing the entire time and doing no damage. It's not helpful to the team at all.

[Xmasterspy]

mwhighlander, on 22 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

What if I told you, the best players in this game are snipers, and you have clearly never fought anyone near their cailber.


As to what you said in the below post, you are confusing terrible players that haven't the slightest clue as to what they are doing, and what actual sniping is in mechwarrior. I see this is just a matter of miscommunication. Carry on.

I would like to ask them what range they are shooting at?

[Xmasterspy]

JeffGoldblum, on 22 October 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I'd love to see you on the battlefield when I have my dual gauss K2

Sure.. just make sure that you hide in cover and shoot at me at max range the whole time. MAX not OPTIMAL range. When I get in range you just have to run and hide to get in a new postion.. No shooting at me at range. Because I am not arguing shooting at OPTIMAL range. Thats never been my point.

[Raso]

I prefer the term "direct fire support. Sadly, the term implies I'm supporting someone else, such as brawlers for example. Sadly with brawling's bid decline since open beta it feels much less like direct fire support and much more like "pop out and shoot then duck back behind your rock/ridge"

Those were the days!

[Stygian Steel]

your forgetting that shooting at targets with ppcs ,while not helping the team also isn't hurting the team either, unless you think that the enemy doesn't see your team heading down the hill on alpine to epsilon and you think the snipers are giving away your position, chances are they already know your there, and taking pot shots at em from outside of optimal range also lets them know that your team knows their there, and what about the PPc hell we had a few short months back, tell me those 6 ppc stalkers weren't effective at whatever range they decided to engage

[Nick Makiaveli]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I have never seen a light with ERLL/ERPPC do anything BUT not do its job. (not capping) Trying to run around and hit heavys at max range and doing 0 to 1 damage.. no help at all.

Sorry, if i see a guy has been working on enemy mech for some time and its about dead, I don't fire and take the kill. I am sure thats just me tho.

Who said they had to do it at max range? If I am sniping in a Light, I never want to be less than 300 meters out (to avoid MLs etc), but note I said ERLLs/PPCs. As in Extended Range.

If I am shooting a mech, and you pass up the kill shot, then I don't want you on my team. The longer he lives, the more damage he does and unless it's the end of the match, that might cost us the match.

I think you need to re-read the XP rules. A kill is 150 XP divided amongst everyone who damaged the target based on percentage of damage done. So if you roll up and do 20 damage and kill him, not like I lose a lot.

Again, it's a TEAM game, not some solo shooter. But hey, play your way and have fun. Just don't expect me to be happy if you wind up on my team.

**edit**

Xmasterspy, on 22 October 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I think its great when a Spider gets on top of a hill and relays info to his team! Heck I even take a few pop shots for the fun of it when i get on top of a hill. What bugs me is when its not a Spider but some guy that stays up there the whole fight trying to "sniper" the whole round.. Missing the entire time and doing no damage. It's not helpful to the team at all.

Please tell me how you know he isn't doing both? IE relaying information and dealing 1-2 pts of damage in the process?

Now i am not saying there aren't total newbies that don't understand how range works etc, but that's a learning opportunity not a reason for a ***** session.

Edited by Nick Makiaveli, 22 October 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[MungFuSensei]

There seems to be this misunderstanding of max range shots. I have yet to see anyone maintain position at max range. Those shots are opening salvos. They are useful, but only for the first few minutes before the brawl starts.once the brawl starts, snipers tend to engage at around 700m. That is where the magic happens. Max range is useful. STAYING at max range is not. Also, my sniper builds tend to be fast (my gauss & er ll k2 went 70 something) so getting into position early on was never a problem.

Furthermore, if you choose to ignore the minor incoming fire instead of seeking cover, even better because now the damage is adding up through volume of fire and decreased range.

[Ens]

oh there are mech with ghillie suits now?

yaaaaay

[Gladewolf]

Xmasterspy, on 22 October 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Sure, 1 point of damage is 1 point of damage. I don't disagree.

What I disagree with (and I am not sure how to be more clear) is... I don't run and take cover or try and avoid you! You're doing about the same damage as I take in my legs from a trip/fall. You give up your "hiding" spot, you do no damage, and no one is scared. I am not sure what your argument is.

The time it takes for a "sniper" to get up the the perfect spot, line up his shot, actually hit, is sooo long that the "sniper" would have been more effective for his team to actually engage in the fight in a range that his weapons will actually do some damage...

TA-DA and we have now reached the core of the problem. "snipers" want to be uber cool and be sooooo far away to "pick" off there enemy's. The problem is... the weapons don't do enough damage at a range where these people like to snipe from to "pick" off anyone. Essentially useless.

OMG, I've been waiting on this guy for the last year to teach us all how to play! Ok, no sniping and no taking cover...also no firing at anyone else's targets! Telll us more! How should we fight if we REALLY want to be good players! This is soooo exciting, I hated being a newb....but with Protips tm from Xmasterspy, we can all learn how to totally Own Facetm.

[SUSTINET]

"You forgot to finish your thought before you went on your rant. ...the lights break off in a swarm and (here is what you left off) they kill the "sniper" and they are off to the next guy, or back to the main pack."

Yes in a perfect world, I suppose it could go that way. or after dropping 2 of the swarm with combined AC, SRM and large laser fire, the others are sent running back to you for cover, as the fire support continues to another location.

"Are you telling me that when you get hit clear across the board your play style breaks down and you hide for cover? Or do you recognize that you just got shot from 2000 meters and did no damage really and move on? Is the cockpit rocking back and forth to much for you to handle? Are these people that are playing "snipers" actually effecting your game?"

Did I say it effected my game? No. YOU did, after all, you said yourself you either move away or ignore them. If you move away, you have ducked out of the fire or retreated out of range, thus YOUR game play has been effected, by your own admission. So rather than twisting words because you have no real argument to offer back, why not just admit that you may have been wrong in the first place? You keep falling back on numbers and diminishing returns, but there is much more to the game than that. Some get it, some don't.

Edited by SUSTINET, 22 October 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[Von Falkenstein]

Such futile efforts... Keep it up in here!

[Levon K]

Can't believe this thread went on for so long.

OP doesn't have enough experience. Revisit in another 6 months time and see if your argument holds. /thread

[Fiery Dragon Xf]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I am not trolling nor new to the game, just my opinion on what I have seen in the game..

People that are shooting at or near max range are not helping the team. (and this is who i am talking about) The tiny amount of damage they do does not fool anyone that knows whats going on as suppress fire. Furthermore if someone is sniping at me, I simple move further away or ignore it. They are doing nothing for their team. We tell our lights to go get them.

Also the point of my first post was to draw attention to how damage drops quick after optimum range. Maybe stop the people that are trying to "snipe" at 2000m.

Must agree with you that now sniping at long range is waste of time, because weapons like Gauss are in a way complicated and depend on ammo, ER PPC way too hot (can be good if you get decent team that wont leave you alone) to snipe, PPC is ok but with min range you are in same boat as ER PPC if you are alone.

Also since sniper weapons are too hot or depend on ammo and every shot must count ask of you to take more time than usual to fire and search for sweet spot on target, which will make you at least 70% unaware of what is going around you and most of time get you cored from the rear.

But if you started thread like this some 5 months ago, i would laugh so hard after i take your head from 1500+ meters with ER PPC + Gauss.

[FerretGR]

Who cares what someone calls the role of a mech using distance and direct fire? As someone pointed out, calling that role "sniper" makes about as much sense from an abstract point of view as using the term "brawler" for someone who isn't punching and kicking.

Who ******* cares? Call them something else if you don't like the term "sniper." In the end if someone says they're "sniping" it means they're going to support the team from a distance. You know what they mean when they say it. That's the entire purpose of the name, to communicate that play style. It's not about comparing that play to what a military infantry sniper does. We all understand what's being said when someone says they're a sniper in this game. That's the only goal. It's easier to say "sniper" than it is to say "I'm going to support the team from a distance using PPCs and ACs."

The real issue isn't that you're describing non-sniper play, it's that you're describing bad play. You've defined "firing at or beyond max range" as sniping when everyone else here is talking about "fire support" from a much more sensible range. You're getting worked up about the bad play and taking it out on the folks who use the term sniper regardless of if they're playing bad or otherwise. Try to focus on the bad play and stop getting so worked up over terminology.

Nick Makiaveli, on 22 October 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

If I am shooting a mech, and you pass up the kill shot, then I don't want you on my team. The longer he lives, the more damage he does and unless it's the end of the match, that might cost us the match.

Again, it's a TEAM game, not some solo shooter. But hey, play your way and have fun. Just don't expect me to be happy if you wind up on my team.

And this, a thousand times this. You're passing up kills because you don't want to "kill steal"??? Great teamwork there.

Let me tell you a story. Last night I was in my Wang, I was stripped down to my MPLs and was basically armorless... I was an easy kill. I was duking it out with an Orion who couldn't get a bead on me. His teammates could have taken me out basically at will but they ignored my gimpy mech... maybe they didn't want to killsteal from the Orion. It gave me a chance to kill the Orion, which I did. I'm sure he was super stoked that his team didn't steal that kill.

May every enemy you refuse to finish because he's "someone else's" come back to eat your team alive in zombie mode.

Edited by FerretGR, 23 October 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[Fang01]

tell you what, go ahead and ignore half value gauss rounds.

As for that "kill stealing" business...I singlehandedly saved a match from a capper last night and was rewarded for my efforts by two bonehead teammates standing around and watching me duel a shadow hawk in a beat to death locust, even after the mg ran out and I only had a small laser left. Sour taste to the end of a great match (3/300+)

[oldradagast]

I can't really agree with the OP on this one in that sniping (or long-range fire support, or whatever) is possible in this game. Anything with PPC's or Gauss Rifles, especially if mounted high, can act as a sniper. Those weapons still deal respectable damage at long ranges, and, while nobody dies in 1 hit to them, that's not the point. Sniping in this game doesn't produce "1 hit, 1 kill" effects, but it effectively denies opponents an area - the field you cover - and is a good way to tag people with damage at range. Some mechs, such as Jagers and Stalkers, are practically built for this role since they have high-mounted weapons but relatively poor maneuverability. They sit in the back, throwing damage down range at anyone who sticks their head out.

I do mentally break up "sniping" and "fire support" as in sniping the shooter may not be obvious and tends to fire infrequently but for huge damage. Gauss rounds are not easy to track back to their shooter, but they hit hard. Fire support, while basically the same thing, I usually see as spraying lead down range (or LRM's) - it's obvious what's going on, but it still works.

So, while I do agree that hiding far away and tossing out the occasional large laser beam in the direction of a foe is not sniping and is not effective, hiding mostly behind a rock a good distance away while tagging foes with dual Gauss, several PPC's, etc. is highly effective. Just don't hope for 1-shot kills and don't be lacking a brawling buddy just in case somebody is able to close the distance or flank you.

Edited by oldradagast, 23 October 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Rift Hawk]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Just Stop... Really just stop. You're not a "sniper" and hurting your team trying to be one.

Lets define what a sniper is. Someone that shoots from a hidden spot to take out an enemy. They use a precision-rifle used to ensure more accurate placement of bullets at longer ranges.

Its hard to hide a 50+ ton Mech and Unfortunately you have to be extremely lucky and I mean really lucky (AKA no skill on your part at all) to actually take someone out (kill them) at any extended range in MWO. Why you may ask? MWO weapons have diminishing returns after their maximum range. The other mech would have to be already severely damaged in order for your shot to actually kill them. In that case you are just a player that is stealing someones kill because you did no damage in the first place.

When a real sniper shoots at long rage someone dies. When a MWO "sniper" shoots at long rage they do 1 damage. You may see on your screen a big hit animation when you fire and hit your opponent at 1500, in reality you have literately done next to no damage to that other mech.

You're hurting your team by trying to play something that is not practical in this game. It would be the same if someone was running around saying they are a medic by jumping in front of everyone's incoming shots.

Also, the whole "sniper fire helps keep enemy players from pushing forward" is a silly argument. While it may keep some new people from rushing or pushing forward, most players that have been around for awhile, know that the snipers shots are doing no damage and ignore it.

This is a nice post for more detail on weapon ranges and diminishing returns. http://mwomercs.com/...-weapon-ranges/

This also goes for poptarts trying to jump up and shoot someone at 2000m away. Stop please.

So what your basically say is.....the only way to play MWO is to brawl ?

I disagree. If your upset with long range fire now, wait until clan wars where you have 3 coordinated lances under one company commander and everyone on teamspeak. Your going to run into a lot of long range weapon fire then.

Long range fire is a perfectly legit tactic and your not hurting your team so long as the team is competent. If they aren't, well it really doesn't matter anyway because your going to lose regardless.