95 replies to this topic

[wintersborn]

Mr 144, on 21 October 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Line of Sight = Flat Trajectory
Indirect Fire = Current Trajectory

This would make sense but I would also increase the flight speed of the missiles.

At 750m (TAG max) to 1000m (LRM max) it can take 7-10 seconds of flight time let alone the time it takes to lock on etc. If a pilot does not find cover with 10 seconds of "INCOMMING MISSILES" spammed at them, well they deserve to get hit.

A increase flight speed would also make AMS less effective for the majority of mechs that have small tube limits or salvo size. Since almost everyone has AMS or multiple AMS plus any AMS within 90m means that faster missiles wont evaporate into thin air as they do now.

Faster missiles would also mean you might hit a light that currently just out runs them or just takes 1 or 2 of the missiles.

As it is right now LRM's are only really effective if you boat them in big tube (salvo size) and have Artemis/TAG/BAP/Sensor decay with line of sight on noob heavies/assaults.

[Navy Sixes]

wintersborn, on 22 October 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

As it is right now LRM's are only really effective if you boat them in big tube (salvo size) and have Artemis/TAG/BAP/Sensor decay with line of sight on noob heavies/assaults.

I dunno. I haven't seen a lot of LRMs on the field for the past couple of weeks and when I do, I'm not seeing as much AMS as I used to. People stop dealing with a lot of LRMs and before long they look at that ton-and-a-half they're "wasting" on AMS and start to think think, "With an extra 1.5 tons I could put on another SSRM, a BAP, another heatsink, ML, or a ton of ammo and a half-ton of armor... And all the threads say LRMs blow so no one's using them anymore..."

I'm working through my Shadowhawks, right now, but pretty soon all those AMS-free lunchboxes will be too tempting and I'll just have to take the old Cat out for a spin...

[Johnny Reb]

Lrms are good now. Make a small change, it will have a big game play effect. I like lrms boats, I dont want everyone running them, aka lrm apocalypse 4!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 22 October 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[Reptilizer]

Mr 144, on 22 October 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Why not do Both?

Well, you need some tonnage to pull a build for doing both. Anything below assault class is not capable of equipping LRMs as a side weapon (TROLLRM5s do not count...).
And even then, for the weight of your LRM10 and ammo you could probably have put on some more alpha hurt, doing even better...

[Reptilizer]

Khobai, on 22 October 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Not really. Energy and Ballistic weapons got x2 or x3 range buffs respectively. LRMs got x1.6.

Weapon ranges are pretty out of whack compared to tabletop for that reason.

That is quite an interesting observation.
The extra 250m when fitting LRMs to the 2x standard would actually help quite a bit without giving the system too much power.

[Steve Pryde]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 October 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Or decrease the range of AC5s!

This

LRMs in CBT (it's a while i played it last so it might be changed) are the weapons with the longest range (except artillery like Long Tom, Arrow IV etc.) why not so in MWO?

[Karl Streiger]

Steve Pryde, on 22 October 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

This

LRMs in CBT (it's a while i played it last so it might be changed) are the weapons with the longest range (except artillery like Long Tom, Arrow IV etc.) why not so in MWO?

Right...to the very soul of BattleTech LONG Range Missiles should be LONG Range Missiles...currently they are a kind of Medium Range missiles.
Before someone with the knowlege to use sarna pop ups and say: but ER-PPC, Gauss and Ultra 5 have comparable or even more range - I know - but I'm talking about the really balanced TT stuff aka 3025 Intro< Tech >Level 1

Increase range for SRMs and LRMs - reduce point damage near zero and increase the splash radius. That a single LRM is able to deal 0.16 of damage towards CT armor, 0.13 to side torso armor, and 0.10 to legs and arms
If that system is working balance the other weapons arround

[Mr 144]

Reptilizer, on 22 October 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Well, you need some tonnage to pull a build for doing both. Anything below assault class is not capable of equipping LRMs as a side weapon (TROLLRM5s do not count...).
And even then, for the weight of your LRM10 and ammo you could probably have put on some more alpha hurt, doing even better...

Both the Cataphract-2X and Orion (several Variants) can do it...with plenty of ammo, Artemis, BAP, TAG, and a pair of LRM 15's, while still leaving many other options such as a pair of PPCs or ERLLs.

Edited by Mr 144, 23 October 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[MCXL]

Mr 144, on 21 October 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Line of Sight = Flat Trajectory
Indirect Fire = Current Trajectory

I would add, Line of sight = Flat Trajectory with 2x missile speed.

[Corvus Antaka]

Reptilizer, on 21 October 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

I tried to PUG in two LRM-heavy mechs yesterday and it still was horrible. The weapon system is simply not balanced very well, but i have no clue what to do about it.

The only solution I ever figured would work is mech3 type LRM design. Outside that, we are pretty much stuck with what we have now. With ECM, you really cant ever truly justify the risk vs reward of brining LRM to the battlefield.

[Flitzomat]

Karl Streiger, on 23 October 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

Right...to the very soul of BattleTech LONG Range Missiles should be LONG Range Missiles...currently they are a kind of Medium Range missiles.

I would even say they can be used as "short range" weapon as 180-400m is a pretty good instance.
If you use them on long range it is to force the enemy into cover. This doesnt help anything if your team doesnt push forwards while you are at it keeping them behind the rocks. Look at it this way: They are more the type of katyusha rockets, they are no cruise missiles. Also, if you nerf them again, there is again no skill required.

IMHO most people play LRMs very (way too) static.

[Mr 144]

You can't PUG in an LRM boat real easily, but a pair of 15's plus energy weapons, BAP, and TAG pugs just fine. Data tracked my 'phract the last 15 pug matches...~375 average damage and ~2 KDR

[Karl Streiger]

Flitzomat, on 23 October 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I would even say they can be used as "short range" weapon as 180-400m is a pretty good instance.
If you use them on long range it is to force the enemy into cover. This doesnt help anything if your team doesnt push forwards while you are at it keeping them behind the rocks. Look at it this way: They are more the type of katyusha rockets, they are no cruise missiles. Also, if you nerf them again, there is again no skill required.

IMHO most people play LRMs very (way too) static.

So we need two game modes for LRM (like switching ECM from ECM to ECCM) indirect fire and direct fire.
Both have different ammo types.
IF - uses a high angle and is only armed vs ground positions, no guidance - increased range (2000m) splash damage only
DF - low angle - no splahs damage -reduced range (up to 640m)

[Flitzomat]

Karl Streiger, on 23 October 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

So we need two game modes

Ooh my god, spare me with more game modes, it´s already complicated enough ... and what about the mortars that will come eventually?

Just out of curiosity, what are the LRM accuracies? If I play LRMs then LRM 15 and I have
LRM15: 36,7% . Thats enough for me and I am happy with it.

[Karl Streiger]

Flitzomat, on 23 October 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Ooh my god, spare me with more game modes, it´s already complicated enough ...

Next time I won't spare your Shadow Hawk

Mortars...oh yes yes yes gimme mortars.
I think the accuracy of a weapon highly depends on team + if it is primary or secondary or even tertiary weapon - and of course how many LRMs are in the game.

What was distrubing from the very beginning - was TAG... useable for direct fire and indirect fire as well... but Semi Guided LRMs work for indirect fire only - but the best part: its post 3060 tech - so where the hell is my Barghest and the Heavy GaussRifle????!!!

[Flitzomat]

When playing LRMs, I use them as primary... if you have seen me in a Shadowhawk with LRM20 lately, this was a mistake on my side
The value is a mix of Pug games (totally random or with a good scout that appeared from nowwhere), and Premades (with scouts and without). So its pretty much as average as it can get

[Reptilizer]

Mr 144, on 23 October 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Both the Cataphract-2X and Orion (several Variants) can do it...with plenty of ammo, Artemis, BAP, TAG, and a pair of LRM 15's, while still leaving many other options such as a pair of PPCs or ERLLs.

ER-LL for sniping does not work.

Phract is just a troll build with 2 4 slot launchers:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d6a25d6fcd87cc3

From the Orions you probably had something like this in mind?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29354e2cce4d3bf
Granted, this looks somewhat playable, though you better not get caught. Avoiding XL which makes you even more fragile.

Still, feels somewhat gimped to me. You can also build stuff like this with a cat. Do not like them or more precise: I could not play well with them. But that is just me of course.

Edited by Reptilizer, 23 October 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[Wolfways]

How LRM's are used in MWLL:


Of course one of the biggest differences between MWLL and MWO are the maps.
MWLL has large, open maps like the Battlefield series, while MWO has smaller, more "cluttered" maps that allow players to hide behind cover more, like Call of Duty.
I feel that PGI are going more for the fast, close range combat feel of CoD where weapons like LRM's have difficulty finding their place.

[Karl Streiger]

Wolfways, on 23 October 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

I feel that PGI are going more for the fast, close range combat feel of CoD where weapons like LRM's have difficulty finding their place.

exactly - my feeling too - since my very beginning of MWO i had this feeling - what i have seen from the HPG base - is not about to change my opinion.

I wish I could play on alpine or caustic only.

[Reptilizer]

Flitzomat, on 23 October 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Ooh my god, spare me with more game modes, it´s already complicated enough ... and what about the mortars that will come eventually?

Just out of curiosity, what are the LRM accuracies? If I play LRMs then LRM 15 and I have
LRM15: 36,7% . Thats enough for me and I am happy with it.

Way better than me:

Weapon Matches Fired Hit Accuracy Time Equip. Damage
AC/20 170 1,584 1,089 68.75% 15:27:10 21,735
LRM 15 111 51,000 16,496 32.35% 10:51:53 17,448
LRM 20 52 17,988 4,929 27.40% 04:45:13 5,021

Just put the AC20 in for comparison having a similar damage potential.
Also those values include a handful of LRMageddon matches.

Edit:
Looking at my AC20, they make not a lot of sense? I even snipe often with them, which should lower the total damage further. So many ammo explosions? Really ??

Edited by Reptilizer, 23 October 2013 - 05:38 AM.