132 replies to this topic

[Draconis March]

Bhael Fire, on 23 October 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

In-game VOIP would be a huge relief for many of these players. However, I still think the MM is never going to function properly as long as grouped players are allowed to play with solo players.

As long as you have to opt into it and aren't forced to listen to all the idiots on your team who happen to have their mics on. Default-on VOIP is the most annoying thing ever.

[WarHippy]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Look have you read My original post go back and read it !

I have and you are wrong about being put up against 12 man pre-mades. The largest group you can make and still play against and with pugs is 4. Yes, sync dropping can happen, but is very rare. As someone that does almost nothing but one man drops I am not seeing these constant stomps from pugs or pre-mades.

As for wanting to have an option to play 8v8 I have to ask why? There were stomps and pre-mades back then as well.

[Captain Stiffy]

Hellcat420, on 22 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

dude if there is a premade on one team, both teams have them. they do not put teams of pugs against teams of premades. just because premades dont announce themselves at the beginning of a match does not mean they are not on your team.

This is absolutely false.

[Dodger79]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

To Try and address the point i am trying make

I am a PUG okay individual player goes into the game have fun, one big problems with PUGS is lack of communication. Have you tried to type a messages in middle battle when you got someone taking pot shots at you, have any idea how infuriating that is. Also you don't have time type and warn player when their about to do something stupid, everyone does not know each other in the team, working as a team really depends on who is listening.and how skilled each player is.

Now Guys I don't have a problem with 12 vs 12 however it makes t is a lot harder for PUGs to win battle as it all comes as it all comes down to each players skill and experience ! and if you have weak players in the game the pressure builds up on the more experienced players. In 12 vs 12 Killing 3 Pre made clan will not turn the tide in battle every time i go look at score board I have noticed about 6 -7 players in my team are dead and the other team has pretty much 8 lances left. 8 vs 8 you kill 3 the player you can turn the tide in the battle but not 12 vs 12.

My Idea is

have filter option so the player can decide if he wants play 12 vs 12 or 8 vs 8
Split the group so Clan VS Clan and PUG Vs PUG

if we don't sort this out new players will turn away from the game because get fed up being brutally defeated in battle by organised Pre made clans.

Well, if your enemy has 8 Lances left that indeed is unfair, as 8 Lances are 32 Mechs. That's 20 Mechs more than a team should have and that is _really_ unfair ;-)

As far as smaller groups in pug-matches are concerned: i cannot see the problem. 2-4 players _can_ make a difference, but even a small group cannot make up for 8 players that do not know what to do. I think most of the time when you think you are facing a whoe bunch of groups it's just the fact that your team is quite stupid while the other team simply knows what to do (e.g.: if an Atlas, a Stalker and a Cataphract fire at one enemy you shoot at the same guy just to bring him down asap and you do not chase a lonely Locust in your Highlander). Common sense is all that is needed to make the impression that there are organized teams. And if your team lacks common sense a lot you get stomped, no matter if there is a premade or not.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Bhael Fire, on 23 October 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Just putting this here before that same vocal community does; they will just say "Get on TS and form up a group."

What they don't realize is that there are a LOT of players that don't want to have to run third party software just to be able to communicate with their team....and there are many others that do not have the time to sit and wait in a TS lobby just to form up a group.

In-game VOIP would be a huge relief for many of these players. However, I still think the MM is never going to function properly as long as grouped players are allowed to play with solo players.

Not WANTING to run third party software is not the same as not being ALLOWED to run third party software. Not doing something because you don't want to is the player making a CHOICE, it's not being forced on them. If the Solo Players CHOOSE to not use a VOIP system then it's all on them not on the guys who CHOOSE to take the extra steps and ANYONE CAN TAKE THOSE STEPS SHOULD THEY CHOOSE TO. I've jumped on servers that aren't the ones I usually go on and I can find a group to drop with in about 30 seconds, they might be in a match but once they come out they pick me up and off we go. What's so damn hard about that? just say HI

Now if somehow they were stopped by in some fashion from using VOIP by the other players or something in the game then it would be a different story but the Download is free, the servers are open, just look on the forums in the Faction section and you will find the Addresses and Passwords, or someone to contact for the password, if there even is a password for all these sites. If I recall the NGNG server doesn't have a password so anyone and their dog could go and use it. Just run the client as administrator mode. So please stop promoting the idea that 4 friends using VOIP have an unfair advantage over everyone else because the ability is there for EVERYONE TO USE, some people just prefer to handicap themselves because... well just because.

Oh, and before someone trys to say it, new people are welcomed on the TS servers, you just have to say "Hey, I'm new to the game and I'm a little unsure about a few things" even the hardest player on the TS servers will step back and say "ok, cool, if you have any questions or problems just ask and we will try to help. Just stick with the three of us for this drop and we will help as best we can"............... And WHY would they do that? because it's in the best interest of the team, the players, the game and everybody.

no need to spilt the que.

Now to address a point that DEATH STORM is trying to make. He wants it so that pugs will never go against a premade 12 man team, I can understand that, what pug would want to go against a high level competative team. But here is the thing, since when did Premade 12 man competative teams become able to drop against random pug groups? every time I have done 12 man drops we usually see the same three or four teams over and over again, or if we happen to come across a team that looks like it's all pugs, a quick check of the NGNG server usually shows that they are infact 12 people all in the same channel dropping together, in other words a 12 man team, only this time it is made up of pugs and not a house or faction. When did they make it that a 12 man group can drop into the open pug que? the biggest group you can get is 4 man on the solo que, if you see more it's most likely a sync drop that got lucky.

4 man teams can be beat, and beat easily, the so called underdogs just need to make sure they they stick together and kill the badies as they find them.

[Grey Death Storm]

WarHippy, on 23 October 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

I have and you are wrong about being put up against 12 man pre-mades. The largest group you can make and still play against and with pugs is 4. Yes, sync dropping can happen, but is very rare. As someone that does almost nothing but one man drops I am not seeing these constant stomps from pugs or pre-mades.

As for wanting to have an option to play 8v8 I have to ask why? There were stomps and pre-mades back then as well.

I am sorry say this its like you don't fully read my comments or your Dilbertly being dense you are correct about some times premade group of 4 coming into a team of 12 however in a team of 12 a gruop of 4 can still do good damage to other team, but it all boils down to numbers how may good/average or new players you have in a team now take that thought and consider it with a team of 12 mech players, as I have already stated a good mech player should be able take 3 mechs out in team of 12 however that will not help as it all boils down how well your other team mate are doing, however in a team of 8 taking 3 enemy players out turns the tide in battle, with a team of 12 turning the tide is decreased.

[WarHippy]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I am sorry say this its like you don't fully read my comments or your Dilbertly being dense you are correct about some times premade group of 4 coming into a team of 12 however in a team of 12 a gruop of 4 can still do good damage to other team, but it all boils down to numbers how may good/average or new players you have in a team now take that thought and consider it with a team of 12 mech players, as I have already stated a good mech player should be able take 3 mechs out in team of 12 however that will not help as it all boils down how well your other team mate are doing, however in a team of 8 taking 3 enemy players out turns the tide in battle, with a team of 12 turning the tide is decreased.

Perhaps I do not understand something then because English is clearly not your native language. Your first post disregarding your last sentence was all about pre-mades vs pugs. However, in this last post of yours it seems you are more concerned about a team getting a couple of kills and snow b alling the other team, which is a very different topic than pre-mades vs pugs. The match maker should be balancing out the good/average and new players on both teams. As for one player making a difference it can happen in 12 or 8 man teams, but this being a team game the fact that one person has a somewhat lesser effect on the outcome is a good thing in my book.

Edited by WarHippy, 23 October 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Grey Death Storm]

Dodger79, on 23 October 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Well, if your enemy has 8 Lances left that indeed is unfair, as 8 Lances are 32 Mechs. That's 20 Mechs more than a team should have and that is _really_ unfair ;-)

As far as smaller groups in pug-matches are concerned: i cannot see the problem. 2-4 players _can_ make a difference, but even a small group cannot make up for 8 players that do not know what to do. I think most of the time when you think you are facing a whoe bunch of groups it's just the fact that your team is quite stupid while the other team simply knows what to do (e.g.: if an Atlas, a Stalker and a Cataphract fire at one enemy you shoot at the same guy just to bring him down asap and you do not chase a lonely Locust in your Highlander). Common sense is all that is needed to make the impression that there are organized teams. And if your team lacks common sense a lot you get stomped, no matter if there is a premade or not.

Firstly of my apologizes did not mean 8 Lances I meant (8 Mechs ) typo any way please be advised I am a seasoned veteran mech pilot and I watch players in teams and I do see some NO NOs from user sticking there heads over hills and not retreating to splitting up or going off on there own and getting killed, the Point is Premades understand the difference, every battle that I have been in this last month I have pretty much lost duo to loosing to many team players or getting ganged up on and it does get annoying after a while.

and this is main reason why I think Pugs and Premades should have separate queues because even a well organised team of 4 can do damage to a team. and I would also think its good idea to have options to choose weather you want to play 12 vs 12 and 8 vs 8 as player can choose what they want to play

[Grey Death Storm]

WarHippy, on 23 October 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Perhaps I do not understand something then because English is clearly not your native language. Your first post disregarding your last sentence was all about pre-mades vs pugs. However, in this last post of yours it seems you are more concerned about a team getting a couple of kills and snow b alling the other team, which is a very different topic than pre-mades vs pugs. The match maker should be balancing out the good/average and new players on both teams. As for one player making a difference it can happen in 12 or 8 man teams, but this being a team game the fact that one person has a somewhat lesser effect on the outcome is a good thing in my book.

Look I am not going to go into an argument with you however my English may not be 100% however it is readable and other people are able to understand what im saying, or maybe you are not reading this through properly.

[Trynn]

Dude, you are making no sense.

1) you are asking for seperate Cues for 12 man teams..one assumes you mean premade 12 man teams because they would have a distinct advantage over a 12 man pug....this ALREADY exisits. You have 2 choices, 12 man premade, 4 Man premade +pugs. (ignoring synch drops)

2) If you are asking for no "premade groups" IE 4 man groups in a pug 12 man, not going to happen, (a) it would split the cue to much and cause much longer waits for games. ( what do you reduce it to, ie I normally drop either alone or with a buddy. So does that mean we are forced to be religated to premade cues, or can we drop in a random Pug? where is the line drawn?

3) there will be times where a complete solo pug is droppong but they have had the sense to get onto one of the games teamspeak servers, which gies them coordination and control that the average puggers dont have...should this be a seperate Cue as well?

your initital post and the one that precedes this one are confusing and indicate you are not clear on the mechanics of the game. before you slag someone else for not reading..stop and re read what wou have wrote,

[Adridos]

Hellcat420, on 22 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

dude if there is a premade on one team, both teams have them. they do not put teams of pugs against teams of premades. just because premades dont announce themselves at the beginning of a match does not mean they are not on your team.

They said it works that way, just like they said the MM is creating teams of equal tonnage and that "mistakes" happen only once in a lifetime.

I told it to that full light team we went up against in heavies and assaults + 1 light team. We all had a good laugh.

[Bhael Fire]

Randalf Yorgen, on 23 October 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

I've jumped on servers that aren't the ones I usually go on and I can find a group to drop with in about 30 seconds, they might be in a match but once they come out they pick me up and off we go. What's so damn hard about that? just say HI

I used to play exclusively in groups using TS. However I eventually made the decision to play solo because it fits in with my schedule better. I like being able to hit launch and be in a match in seconds without having to deal with the hassle of waiting in the TS lobby.

What so hard about that? It's not "hard" as much as annoying. I'm not the only person that feels that way; that's why there are SOLO players. There's absolutely no good reason to not have an industry-standard feature like in-game VOIP (or least on the list of features to be implement later).

[WarHippy]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Look I am not going to go into an argument with you however my English may not be 100% however it is readable and other people are able to understand what im saying, or maybe you are not reading this through properly.

I have no problem discussing this with you, but I need you to take the time to carefully explain what the problem you are having is and why it is a problem that needs to be fixed. All of your posts in this thread have been shifting from one topic to another that apparently has a connection in your mind, but I am not seeing the connection. I'm trying to understand, I really am, but you don't make a lot of sense.

[Dodger79]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Firstly of my apologizes did not mean 8 Lances I meant (8 Mechs ) typo any way please be advised I am a seasoned veteran mech pilot and I watch players in teams and I do see some NO NOs from user sticking there heads over hills and not retreating to splitting up or going off on there own and getting killed, the Point is Premades understand the difference, every battle that I have been in this last month I have pretty much lost duo to loosing to many team players or getting ganged up on and it does get annoying after a while.

and this is main reason why I think Pugs and Premades should have separate queues because even a well organised team of 4 can do damage to a team. and I would also think its good idea to have options to choose weather you want to play 12 vs 12 and 8 vs 8 as player can choose what they want to play

Not only premades understand the differences, experienced pug-players also do. Sometimes when i drop alone i swear the enemy team thinks there is a premade on our side, but we pugs are only sticking together and shooting at the same target. Because it's common sense and experienced players know that this will work best. Premades that are roflstomping pugs is a shadow from the past, not an actual problem.

Additionally: after all it's a team-based game. Do you want to forbid buddies to play together when they are less then 12? Not a very smart idea. Seperating the queues more? Also, not a very smart idea, given the already long waiting times to find a match (even when you drop solo in any-mode).

[Grey Death Storm]

Trynn, on 23 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Dude, you are making no sense.

1) you are asking for seperate Cues for 12 man teams..one assumes you mean premade 12 man teams because they would have a distinct advantage over a 12 man pug....this ALREADY exisits. You have 2 choices, 12 man premade, 4 Man premade +pugs. (ignoring synch drops)

2) If you are asking for no "premade groups" IE 4 man groups in a pug 12 man, not going to happen, (a) it would split the cue to much and cause much longer waits for games. ( what do you reduce it to, ie I normally drop either alone or with a buddy. So does that mean we are forced to be religated to premade cues, or can we drop in a random Pug? where is the line drawn?

3) there will be times where a complete solo pug is droppong but they have had the sense to get onto one of the games teamspeak servers, which gies them coordination and control that the average puggers dont have...should this be a seperate Cue as well?

your initital post and the one that precedes this one are confusing and indicate you are not clear on the mechanics of the game. before you slag someone else for not reading..stop and re read what wou have wrote,

Okay you put me in the chair that fine.

I am Sorry if I stipulated that I gave the meaning a team of 12 Premades against team 12 PUG okay what I should have said was when you get a premade team it could be a group of 4 or 2 groups of 4 or the worst case 3 groups off 4 in a team of 12. Against a team of 12 PUGs,

What my Idea was to split the queues so it was purely make it Premade VS Premade and PUG VS PUG does that clear things up, I was initially taking the worst case scenario and applying it to the point I was trying to make.

and again I do apologise if I did not stipulate that


Also should point out in the last line of your paragraph you got "before you slag someone else for not reading..stop and re read what wou have wrote"

what it should state - before you slag someone else for not reading. stop and "re-read what you should" have wrote

So maybe you should check your wording as well before you comment on other peoples also I do notice bad grammar from times in other people post however I don't make a big thing about it.

Edited by Death Storm, 23 October 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Grey Death Storm]

WarHippy, on 23 October 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

I have no problem discussing this with you, but I need you to take the time to carefully explain what the problem you are having is and why it is a problem that needs to be fixed. All of your posts in this thread have been shifting from one topic to another that apparently has a connection in your mind, but I am not seeing the connection. I'm trying to understand, I really am, but you don't make a lot of sense.

Every topic is related to the first topic which is describing why I believe that the queue for PUGS should be Separate from the Queues Premades (easy concept it should be Premade vs Premades and PUGS VS PUGS) that way the fights remain even and fair.

[Grey Death Storm]

Dodger79, on 23 October 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Not only premades understand the differences, experienced pug-players also do. Sometimes when i drop alone i swear the enemy team thinks there is a premade on our side, but we pugs are only sticking together and shooting at the same target. Because it's common sense and experienced players know that this will work best. Premades that are roflstomping pugs is a shadow from the past, not an actual problem.

you are correct however there is a lack of discipline, communication, and everyone is does not know who you are never really though by your side in battle, I was referring to newbies as well. communication is bad as you have to type by keyboard and in battle that's not really good idea as you can get killed and you don't have time to type out watch out you walking in to a trap


Pre Made clans you fight with your friend you are all aware of your team ability communication is by head sets work together to find the best strategic point on the map to defeat the enemy.

Dodger79, on 23 October 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Additionally: after all it's a team-based game. Do you want to forbid buddies to play together when they are less then 12? Not a very smart idea. Seperating the queues more? Also, not a very smart idea, given the already long waiting times to find a match (even when you drop solo in any-mode).

No by all mean play with friends as pre made team however I feel it should be Premade VS Premade. not - pre made Vs PUGs

Edited by Death Storm, 23 October 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[WarHippy]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Okay you put me in the chair that fine.

I am Sorry if I stipulated that I gave the meaning a team of 12 Premades against team 12 PUG okay what should have said was when you get a premade team it could be a group of 4 or 2 groups of 4 or the worse case 3 groups off 4 in a team of 12. against a team of 12 PUGs,

What my Idea was to split the queues so it was purely make it Premade VS Premade and PUG VS PUG does that clear things up, I was initially taking the worse case scenario and applying it to the point I was trying to make.



and again I do appolgise if i did not stipulate that

Ok, this was much clearer.

I still do not agree with you though. We do not have the player base to support separate queues without having both queues far too long. Right now we can have groups of 4 or less, and this has hurt the game because it makes it harder to play with friends and clan/merc units. If you do not have exactly 12 players or 4 or less players you can't play together. That defeats the entire purpose of multi-player games like this especially after community warfare is implemented.

As a solo player I am not seeing the problem of groups stomping teams that you are describing. I have seen pugs that worked together very well, and I have seen 4 man teams that should probably just uninstall the game. The point being even if you separate the queues you are still going to see the occasional stomp, but who do you blame then?

[Bhael Fire]

WarHippy, on 23 October 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

The point being even if you separate the queues you are still going to see the occasional stomp, but who do you blame then?

The only reason we have stomps/unbalanced matches right now is because MM has a problem matching up groups. A solo-only queue would allow Elo to function properly.

You'd would not see 12:0 wipes if the MM was working properly.

[WarHippy]

Bhael Fire, on 23 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

The only reason we have stomps/unbalanced matches right now is because MM has a problem matching up groups. A solo-only queue would allow Elo to function properly.

You'd would not see 12:0 wipes if the MM was working properly.

For Elo to work properly the game would need to be 1 on 1 like Chess which the Elo system was designed for. Given that will never happen we will continue to see 12-0 stomps from time to time. However, let's say it was working correctly as you put it, and even then 12-0 could still happen. It is just going to average out to closer matches, but you will still have outliers.

Edited by WarHippy, 23 October 2013 - 12:22 PM.