209 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

What I want to say is: if you are going to nerf the Clan weapons to make them par with the IS ones, why implementing the Clans in the first place? Just for the sexy designs?

Again with this argument. Nothing you can say could possibly justify factoring out 17+ factions from the game just because you dont like it. And yes, the sexy designs are a massive part of it. A huge selection of new and unique omni-mechs, i hardly see how that could be a bad thing.

Edited by pbiggz, 26 October 2013 - 07:13 PM.

[Odanan]

pbiggz, on 26 October 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Again with this argument. Nothing you can say could possibly justify factoring out 17+ factions from the game just because you dont like it.

So I was a Clan lover and now I'm a Clan hater? hmmm you guys really like to label, right?

I see no problem adding the Clans. Personally, I would prefer if the timeline started with something like 3047, but the Clans are now at the gates, so there is no way to escape them.

And I already suggested how to keep the games competitive*, even with the Clan tech as it is. Sorry to think different from your engraved in stone truth (that Clan weapons need to be nerfed).

*rules:
- 10 Clans vs. 12 IS is not enough - Clans would still one side IS. There must be also a considerably heavier total weight limit for the IS team.
- No ECM, TAG, NARC, artillery/air strike (tough these later don't make any difference) for the Clans (well, at least until 3055, when they realize IS doesn't deserve the zell).
- No C-Bills for Clanners - they should have a "currency" of something like honor, earned in a different way.
- No mixed IS and Clan teams.
- No Clan tech in IS mechs.

[Pariah Devalis]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

- 10 Clans vs. 12 IS is not enough - Clans would still one side IS. There must be also a considerably heavier total weight limit for the IS team.
- No ECM, TAG, NARC, artillery/air strike (tough these later don't make any difference) for the Clans (well, at least until 3055, when they realize IS doesn't deserve the zell).
- No C-Bills for Clanners - they should have a "currency" of something like honor, earned in a different way.
- No mixed IS and Clan teams.
- No Clan tech in IS mechs.

- Greater capability even with harder odds will still attract people left and right. How much is unknown, and I would honestly like to see asymmetric teams, however given the current game modes that would make them incredibly difficult to succeed with. Conquest would be a nightmare, Assault would be insane trying to counter a basecap, and as durable as clan mechs are, they are less so than IS mechs with standard engines and will still be vaporized by focused IS mech fire - especially since they would be by non-stock player-optimized configurations. It is a gigantic balancing rabbit hole. Do you see the end of it? I sure as hell cannot.

- ECM, TAG, and NARC were absolutely used by the Clans even among themselves. ECM is a very popular item, actually, as seen on the Hellbringer, Kit Fox C and G configurations, and Mist Lynx C and F, just to name a few. TAG was less often used, but it was used. Mist Lynx F and Huntsman Prime, for examples. NARC was also used, for example in the C configuration of the Adder, but was used coupled with the no-minimum range LRMs to improve tracking and accuracy. It would be foolhardy to ban these items, and the fact that you would try indicates that there is a balancing issue that needs to be dealt with.

- I agree with the no C-Bills thing entirely. I do not think anyone really argues that, but some sort of currency, be it honor or resource allocation or whatnot is required.

- Not sure I entirely agree. Certainly some cases can be made to argue for it, such as the Wolf Dragoons, integrated Galaxies like CNC's Lambda Galaxy (though far in the future, it DID utilize mixed IS and Clan assets working in unison). And the possibility for Clan Salvage should be there, but made so obscenely hard to get your hands on a Clan machine if you work for the IS that it would be virtually impossible to see it. Otherwise there is no incentive to get a Clan machine if you work for an IS group. If it is an option to get, the mechs need to at least be reasonably balanced somehow

- I absolutely agree on no mixtech mechs, however. Aside from making all mechs essentially glorified armored boxes, it absolutely cheapens the uniqueness that is Clan tech. Clan tech should stay on Clan mechs and IS on IS mechs. There really should not be any bleed over. Hell, even lore wise it took a long, long time for hack jobs to get Clan tech even barely working on IS mechs, and IIRC they were prone to random malfunctions.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 October 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Rift Hawk]

pbiggz, on 26 October 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Again with this argument. Nothing you can say could possibly justify factoring out 17+ factions from the game just because you dont like it. And yes, the sexy designs are a massive part of it. A huge selection of new and unique omni-mechs, i hardly see how that could be a bad thing.

It could be a bad thing because omni points are only going to be on Clan mechs because we're in 3050. So guess what ? Sh*t tons of people are going to start playing clans because its a more customizable mech. Regardless of what happens with the Clan weapons or mechs themselves, that is a serious detractor from playing IS mechs.

I also don't know where your getting 17+ factions from. Are you really under the assumption that PGI is going to attempt to add in 17 more factions into CW ? Think again. More than likely, your getting the major four Clans. Jade Falcon, Wolf, Smoke Jaguar, and Ghost Bear. I doubtt you'll see more than that.

Not to mention, I don't recall ever reading a single post where PGI stated that you'll be able to play a Clan faction. Mechs yes, Factions no. Perhaps you will but I doubt PGI is going to add more factions when the current player base doesn't even have enough people to make it worth while.

There is a good reason to factor out Clan mechs entirely. Ready for it ? They aren't necessary to the overall game play. All its going to do is throw more problems into the game and there are currently more important things to do. Arguing "sexy designs" is at best a superficial and not at all well thought out reason to add anything to this game that could potentially go horribly wrong. I, for one, am not ready to sacrifice my fun on your altar of want.

Edited by Imperial X, 26 October 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Imperial X, on 26 October 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

It could be a bad thing because omni points are only going to be on Clan mechs because we're in 3050. So guess what ? Sh*t tons of people are going to start playing clans because its a more customizable mech. Regardless of what happens with the Clan weapons or mechs themselves, that is a serious detractor from playing IS mechs.

I also don't know where your getting 17+ factions from. Are you really under the assumption that PGI is going to attempt to add in 17 more factions into CW ? Think again. More than likely, your getting the major four Clans. Jade Falcon, Wolf, Smoke Jaguar, and Ghost Bear. I doubtt you'll see more than that.

Not to mention, I don't recall ever reading a single post where PGI stated that you'll be able to play a Clan faction. Mechs yes, Factions no. Perhaps you will but I doubt PGI is going to add more factions when the current player base doesn't even have enough people to make it worth while.

More customizable 'Mechs? This would be true if BattleMechs worked in MWO like they do in the lore, it should be much harder to replace components and weapons and it should require a lot more time. We have in the game Inner Sphere 'Mechs which are even more customizable than Omnimechs, since in Clan 'Mechs engine, ammo, internals and some weapons are hard wired in the chassis and you cannot remove them unless you redesign the whole structure. You will have more weapons customization but not really much more than IS, only a few omni points.

They will add only the first four invading Clans for sure, it is lore-wise and reasonable. Maybe they could add later the reserve Clans, Nova Cats, Steel Vipers & Diamond Sharks.

I do not remember where but i am sure they Bryan said players will be able to join Clan factions. Why should you add Clan 'Mechs if you cannot join their faction?

[Odanan]

We are talking about omni tech but we don't know how it will be implemented in the game. Please don't assume there will be "free-for-all-hardpoints", because this is a MW4's invention.

In MWO, PGI created a system for customizing IS mechs that doesn't exist in the TT (hardpoints based on the weapon type) - which is very good in my opinion. But we don't know if the Clans will follow the same rules.

Heck, we don't even know if Clan omnimechs will have "variants", if we will be able to edit engines, armor, heat sinks, etc.

Some food for thought (from Sarna):

Quote

Advantages

The modular construction allows MechWarriors to customize their machine's weapon loadout to suit their own skills and preference, and suit specific tactical or environmental needs as required. Where a BattleMech of comparable weight is designed and built for a specific role, a OmniMech can serve as a direct-fire combatant one day, and a missile boat the next. A single 'Mech that can perform the role of four frees up significant logistical space during a campaign.

Though not solely created for modular weapon loadouts, the OmniMech design greatly **** repair and construction as well. If a weapon pod is damaged, it can be quickly detached and replaced with another while the original is undergoing repair. If certain weapons or ammunition are unavailable, alternates can be easily substituted. Once their modular weaponry and equipment is removed, the empty bays generally provide larger spaces to access and repair the base chassis. Damaged components such as arms and legs can be easily replaced in half the time it takes for common BattleMechs, and often with less experienced technicians able perform such tasks.

The technology also greatly **** salvage, even if an enemy OmniMech is virtually destroyed, an intact OmniPod can be detached and reattached to a functional Omni just as quickly and easily as it was factory fresh, maximizing the Clan's overriding drive to avoid waste. While Inner Sphere and Clan technologies are generally incompatible with each other with regard to repairs, this does not apply to OmniPods, with Inner Sphere OmniMechs able to mount Clan pods and Clan Omni's able to equip Inner Sphere pods interchangeably.This is due to Inner Sphere Omni technology being reverse engineered from Clan designs, as opposed to being separately developed.

Disadvantages

Despite their flexibility and maintenance benefits, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics.

OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However the mounting points for them are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons and PPCs and so must be automatically removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.

With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology.

The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts.

[Abrams]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 October 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

- I absolutely agree on no mixtech mechs, however. Aside from making all mechs essentially glorified armored boxes, it absolutely cheapens the uniqueness that is Clan tech. Clan tech should stay on Clan mechs and IS on IS mechs. There really should not be any bleed over. Hell, even lore wise it took a long, long time for hack jobs to get Clan tech even barely working on IS mechs, and IIRC they were prone to random malfunctions.

Has anyone looked at "Mechwarrior Tactics"? That game has weapons that come with perks. Who not to say that as the IS gains clan salvage and start to reverse engineer clan tech that IS prototype weapons will be loaned to house players with x# of loyalty points. Said prototypes could only be mounted to one mech and hard point of your choosing. You are there to field test the weapon. This temp weapon may have better range or less heat, but may also have a down side (would make random) Again you are trying out an untested weapon that is rushed to the front lines for testing. (could then have merc players gain contracts to target this player to defeat and steal the weapon from him) If the weapon is damaged in battle your going to loss access to it for a while and or may get sent back something else to test. I would add a bonus to loyalty for every drop the weapon is in. If the weapon just sits in the hanger for so may drops they come and take it back from you. (or maybe an option to put it on the black market)

People may not know, but the clan units were not all made up of front line mechs. The shear size of the IS called for the use of star league models and then the use of IS models with clan weapons. (IIC) Not every fight against the clans will be against an all ominmech force. As the clans push farther into the IS the lack of proper logistics forces the clans to attack in waves to allow supplies to reach them from clan space. (IS factories couldn't be retooled quickly) In CW clan players are going to have to quickly balance how to keep the pressure on the IS and hold the systems they have already captured. Yes this means not every clan player will have access to an ominmech. I could even see clan players going for broke and deploying ominmechs that have empty pod space due to a lack of clan tech level weapons being available. Or give them the option (for a loss of honor points) to mounting captured IS weapons on there clan mechs.

Number of clan vs. IS players per drop:

With the clan bidding system, I don't see the clan side having a set number of slots to fill before a fight can begin. Clans have stars of five mechs but did break stars up (points) to lower the bid. (not a final set number) Clan players should act more like players in a "pug" drop vs. a pre made team. (many novels covered how hard it was for Phelan Kell to get his star to work together to hunt down IS mechs) The clan honor system (dueling) is not built around the concept of teamwork. (an army of ONE) Its more of an all for one mindset. Its only when the clan unit gets caught short that honor get put aside. (but something needs to really go wrong, not just the first time the IS uses group fire) Clan players will be under pressure to get kills / cause damage to keep the ominmech they have yet have the need to avoid getting there mech shot out from under them. Another disadvantage the clans will have is how long does a drop last time wise. If the clans are there to take a planet they will never out number the IS and need to push from one fight to the other. (shock and awe!) Your clan wants results if your camping in the back and don't get in there and kick some butt your not going to get to keep your Timberwolf. Locust IIC for you! In other words the clan forces will always be at least a fair fight for the IS side, and more likely the bid will be lower to make clan players have to work for the win / make sure there is enough honor points to go around.

We keep assuming that the game will treat the clan player just like an IS player but just with better tech. (and that clan warrior will be allowed to play the game like a IS pilot) A true clan player isn't going to support a fellow clan player if there is only one IS mech to shoot at. You can be that type of player but dont be surprised when your moved to a lower tier mech as a result. The game needs to expose the player to the harsh reality of being a clan warrior. It is a world of survival of the fittest not an army based on grading system like the units of the IS.

[Rift Hawk]

CyclonerM, on 27 October 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

More customizable 'Mechs? This would be true if BattleMechs worked in MWO like they do in the lore, it should be much harder to replace components and weapons and it should require a lot more time. We have in the game Inner Sphere 'Mechs which are even more customizable than Omnimechs, since in Clan 'Mechs engine, ammo, internals and some weapons are hard wired in the chassis and you cannot remove them unless you redesign the whole structure. You will have more weapons customization but not really much more than IS, only a few omni points.

They will add only the first four invading Clans for sure, it is lore-wise and reasonable. Maybe they could add later the reserve Clans, Nova Cats, Steel Vipers & Diamond Sharks.

I do not remember where but i am sure they Bryan said players will be able to join Clan factions. Why should you add Clan 'Mechs if you cannot join their faction?

The way PGI has been doing things I'm fairly sure they aren't going to restrict engine swapping and other things just because of lore. Seeming as how they've basically tossed lore out the window from day 1.

[NocturnalBeast]

dal10, on 26 October 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

these threads will just keep popping when people realize that their beloved uber mechs won't be 100% uber anymore.

I agree, there is no way that PGI can implement the clan mechs as-is, otherwise there will be no one left playing IS for CW.

[Odanan]

Ed Steele, on 27 October 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

I agree, there is no way that PGI can implement the clan mechs as-is, otherwise there will be no one left playing IS for CW.

I would still play with IS mechs.

Imagine 16 IS mechs (4 lances) vs. 10 Clan mechs (2 stars). Do you still think IS would be in disadvantage?

[CyclonerM]

I have a new idea. Clan 'Mechs could be available only to Wolf's Dragoons' elitest units, so a player if wants to get an Omnimech will have to fight for all the factions, starting from his favourites and then spending a decent amount of time with the others in order to get Clan tech. There will be players who are more loyal to their favourite faction and will stay with it.

But i still prefere puretech.

[Sug]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 October 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

And the possibility for Clan Salvage should be there, but made so obscenely hard to get your hands on a Clan machine if you work for the IS that it would be virtually impossible to see it.

There is no way to do this. If clan tech is worth grinding out, no matter how hard the grind is, people will grind it out and then have advantage over normal players, making grinding out clan tech the only way to be competitive.

The only idea I have is to balance the Clans with CW. If the IS can have planets and infrastructure make playing the Clans work like an invasion. Don't make it a grind to get clantech, make it a grind to keep it. Let them have their OP mechs but link their amount supplies to the planets they hold. Give them some core IS planets they can't lose but force them to expand/defend for parts/ammo/mechs/upgrades.

Taking a planet would give no immediate benefit but supplies would increase the longer you hold it. Days, weeks, etc. If you're forced off the planet and then retake the planet later you start back at the lowest supply level. Every month or so you could get reinforcements from the homeworlds. This would also help keep the Clans "contained" as they will not be able to steamroll their way to terra in the first week of release.

yadda yadda.

[Vargralor]

Actually the simplest way to balance Clan Tech may be to simply leave it as it is in TT but have it permanently destroyed if lost to simulate the difficulty of re-supply. Lose an arm and two CER LLAS, then they're gone permanently. Timber Wolf gets cored, gone permanently. Force players to re-buy their clan tech from scratch if they lose it. Many will never risk it in battle. Those that do likely will actually be the best players who will WTFPWN until they are brought down through attrition, sortof like real clan warriors in the invasion.

[dal10]

Corvald Tyrska, on 27 October 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Actually the simplest way to balance Clan Tech may be to simply leave it as it is in TT but have it permanently destroyed if lost to simulate the difficulty of re-supply. Lose an arm and two CER LLAS, then they're gone permanently. Timber Wolf gets cored, gone permanently. Force players to re-buy their clan tech from scratch if they lose it. Many will never risk it in battle. Those that do likely will actually be the best players who will WTFPWN until they are brought down through attrition, sortof like real clan warriors in the invasion.

you thought the ecm apocalypse, the festival of artemis, the 3rd person of doom, and coolant flush armageddon forum rage levels were bad? this would probably melt the internet out of pure rage.

[Odanan]

Sug, on 27 October 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

There is no way to do this. If clan tech is worth grinding out, no matter how hard the grind is, people will grind it out and then have advantage over normal players, making grinding out clan tech the only way to be competitive.

This. ^

[ColdPsyker1]

Abrams, on 26 October 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

What I do know is the clans got rid of hand to hand mech combat.

He brings up a good point. Let those hand actuators actually do something.

Pre-made Clan group drops 10-12 Daishi's.

IS group drops 12 chargers.

[Rift Hawk]

CyclonerM, on 27 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have a new idea. Clan 'Mechs could be available only to Wolf's Dragoons' elitest units, so a player if wants to get an Omnimech will have to fight for all the factions, starting from his favourites and then spending a decent amount of time with the others in order to get Clan tech. There will be players who are more loyal to their favourite faction and will stay with it.

But i still prefere puretech.

If they added salvage into the game and a research and development section then it would take care of most problems. Gaining the ability to salvage a clan mech and R&D it to either gain that particular mech or the option to upgrade one of your existing mechs to an omni. Both options taking actual ingame weeks to complete. All the while you are unable to use any variant of that mech.

For instance you salvage a Hellbringer. You can either R&D it with the ability to repair it once the R&D is complete, (You'd have to learn the new tech and that takes time) or you could upgrade your Centurion AL to an omni mech once that R&D is completed. Only one however, not both. Possibly the Omni point could be chosen by the player or randomly selected by the game. Something along these lines.

To counter act the fact that Clans would be more powerful at the beginning of their release...they could set realistic purchase prices for them. ie the summoner costs around 21m c-bills to purchase. Which in case anyone doesn't know, is a 70 ton heavy.

Just an idea and its not like i've been sitting here putting serious indepth thought into it because it probably wont ever happen.

They should also add the total destruction of mechs into the game as well. Not in pubbing because that would be stupid but into CW.

They should also have a seperate hanger for CW than they do for pubbing. That way when someone joins a clan faction they don't have a load of IS mechs sitting in their mech bays. The pubbing hanger is irrelevant for CW and has no restrictions on which mechs can be allowed in that bay while the CW bay only allows certain mechs to be added to it. For instance, if your an IS player you cannot purchase clan mechs and add them into your CW bay. The only way you can get them is if you salvaged one.

Edited by Imperial X, 27 October 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Odanan]

Clan tech salvage... you are out of your mind.

[Rift Hawk]

Odanan, on 27 October 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Clan tech salvage... you are out of your mind.

I'm just throwing out random ideas. At this point any idea is better than nerfing the ******* **** out of everything.

[dal10]

only way to balance clan tech without nerfing it is to not add it in the first place.