209 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

I like the cool own suggestions on the LRMs way up top. We might also want to consider 1/5 less ammo per ton for ballistic or missiles or both. What you save in crits and weight, you lose some in ammo quantity. Of course, you can choose to bring more ammunition, and given Clan zero crit zero ton any location CASE it is not a huge risk.

[Zelator]

I personally think clan weapons should not be nerfed, they should clearly be superior to standard weapons in almost every way.

I however think the system used to aquire them would need to be tuned. I think that they should be very rare and hard to get and not be purchasable in the standard shop. Maybe they could be aquired via faction loyalty point system or something. My point being is that just to get a single clan small laser should take a few hours grind atleast. (or at a similar rate of progression to unlocking modules etc)

Many people would at this point think it would imbalance the game, but my solution would simply be to tweak the matchmaker system so that any mech with clan weapons would take up more space when calculating the team/enemy team tonnage ratio.

[Crusbbcc]

Zelator, on 24 October 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I personally think clan weapons should not be nerfed, they should clearly be superior to standard weapons in almost every way.

I however think the system used to aquire them would need to be tuned. I think that they should be very rare and hard to get and not be purchasable in the standard shop. Maybe they could be aquired via faction loyalty point system or something. My point being is that just to get a single clan small laser should take a few hours grind atleast. (or at a similar rate of progression to unlocking modules etc)

Many people would at this point think it would imbalance the game, but my solution would simply be to tweak the matchmaker system so that any mech with clan weapons would take up more space when calculating the team/enemy team tonnage ratio.

I fully agree! Clan weapons should be superior, lets have a diverse and fun experience in MWO.
You could protect beginners from beeing stomped by clanners by having IS vs. IS for the first number of games and make Clans a mid/ endgame addition to keep it interesting in the long term!

If you are reading this thread you may also want to have a look at:

http://mwomercs.com/...implementation/

And comment there!

[Pariah Devalis]

To be clear: nobody wants to neuter clan weapons. What we want and what the game needs are not one and the same. If I could take full clan weapon benefits, I would love it, but I also know it would break the game six ways sideways. The grongards of classic clan need to understand that we nerd a healthy game as opposed to a rules and fluff correct game - though the rules and fluff should be taken into account whenever possible.

We know clan mechs will have a range, crit slot, and item tonnage advantage. Damage can be handled via other methods and damage in tabletop does not necessarily mean they do more damage - like is what my same damage shorter beam duration for lasers can illustrate. Some things like cerppc will to probably need to hit harder, but the full fifteen might be too much and their cool downs need tweaking.

Ultimately everything is on the table for modification so long as the game is relatively balanced, especially given the devs' statement that clan tech should not be outright overpowering on their own.

Also, I wish this site was mobile friendly, since it is damned near impossible to edit due to autocorrect errors....

[Goldhawk]

I have mentioned this before, so this will be the final time.

There are a few ways to deal with the Clan weaponry debate. I enjoyed the earlier ideas of allowing the Clan Weps a longer recharge time then Inner Sphere tech.
Clan tech= Heavier damage, less weight, more heat
Inner Sphere= Less Damage, more weight, less heat.
Idea #1
Clan weaponry can ONLY be mounted on clan mechs. There will be no Timber Wolf walking around with a Inner Sphere LRM 15. If you don't have the weapon, (Clan tech), you can't substitute for the Inner Sphere equilivent.
Idea #2
Clan Weaponry CAN be mounted on Inner Sphere mechs, but only in limited qualities. Maximum, 2 weapons. Reason.....errr it takes too long to wire sophisticated clan tech with inferior Inner Sphere machines. When it gets blown off and destroyed you HAVE to purchase a new weapon and it will be 2x-3x the cost of the Inner Sphere weapon.
Idea #3
The Clan mechs are powerful, but they should still have the same issues that Inner Sphere XL engines have. Once you pierce a side torso, they die. The FF armor will assist with their life expectancy, but it will prevent clan mechs from obliterating the enemy constantly, like how they did in the 1st few years of the invasion.
Wait, new idea, let the clan mechs be super powerful and amazing, and we find new ways to deal with them with traps and ambushes and concentrated fire. Yes! Let the Clans have less ammunition for their weapons and keep their weps being super strong and light. Since the clans have a heavy reliance on ammo based weapons, allowing for them to carry less ammo is a good way to keep them equal to the IS ammo bins.

[HugoStiglitz]

Crusbbcc, on 24 October 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

I fully agree! Clan weapons should be superior, lets have a diverse and fun experience in MWO.
You could protect beginners from beeing stomped by clanners by having IS vs. IS for the first number of games and make Clans a mid/ endgame addition to keep it interesting in the long term!

If you are reading this thread you may also want to have a look at:

http://mwomercs.com/...implementation/

And comment there!

You and I have a much different definition of diversity. If you make the clan weapons undeniably better in almost every way and the only barrier to entry is that they are more 'rare' eventually at the top level IS tech is extinct, the difficulty curve goes through the roof since all the old players will have the better weapons (even if the noobies are stuck in IS only matches for a while), and ultimately you are left with the 'diversity' of only clan weapons.

I would much rather have the actual diversity of a mech with intermingled clan and IS tech. Reward people for thinking through a mech in the mechlab, instead of just having to strap clan tech to everything.

Pariah Devalis, on 24 October 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Also, I wish this site was mobile friendly, since it is damned near impossible to edit due to autocorrect errors....

You and me both

[flounder2760]

pbiggz, on 24 October 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

I'm saddened that I have to explain this, but it's generally agreed that clan tech should not cost much more then IS tech. And no matter how much you cry about it, nothing justifies leaving clan tech as is. It wont work, that's all there is too it. You run the risk of COMPLETELY INVALIDATING AN ENTIRE TECH BASE BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EASY WIN BUTTON.

generally agreed by whom? players who have no definitive idea?

if you think clan weapons and clan mechs are gonna cost similarly to IS that would be stupid. as whats to stop every new player from goign straight to clan and selling all their IS mechs clan tech will be this games END GAME gear so to speak.

thats why its acceptable to have it be better and cost more or else everyone will run clans and nobody will run IS.

the only feasable way to make clans function in the general PUB matches is to make MM have a brain and throw lighter stars at heavier lances.

this nerf clans till they arent clans sentiment is redonculous.

Zelator, on 24 October 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I personally think clan weapons should not be nerfed, they should clearly be superior to standard weapons in almost every way.

I however think the system used to aquire them would need to be tuned. I think that they should be very rare and hard to get and not be purchasable in the standard shop. Maybe they could be aquired via faction loyalty point system or something. My point being is that just to get a single clan small laser should take a few hours grind atleast. (or at a similar rate of progression to unlocking modules etc)

Many people would at this point think it would imbalance the game, but my solution would simply be to tweak the matchmaker system so that any mech with clan weapons would take up more space when calculating the team/enemy team tonnage ratio.

i would be cool with something like this. clan tech is the end game parts/mechs for this game because of clear superiority if it takea super grind to outfit a mech with all clan tech so be it but dont make it worthless to even grind for.

[pbiggz]

flounder2760, on 24 October 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

generally agreed by whom? players who have no definitive idea?

if you think clan weapons and clan mechs are gonna cost similarly to IS that would be stupid. as whats to stop every new player from goign straight to clan and selling all their IS mechs clan tech will be this games END GAME gear so to speak.

thats why its acceptable to have it be better and cost more or else everyone will run clans and nobody will run IS.

the only feasable way to make clans function in the general PUB matches is to make MM have a brain and throw lighter stars at heavier lances.

this nerf clans till they arent clans sentiment is redonculous.


i would be cool with something like this. clan tech is the end game parts/mechs for this game because of clear superiority if it takea super grind to outfit a mech with all clan tech so be it but dont make it worthless to even grind for.

No, you arent thinking this through. If we do what you say and leave clans expensive but brokenly OP whilst having a binary face a company in drops the following things will happen.

Mass exodus of IS to clan as IS weapons generally become inferior and utterly useless despite their lower cost.
The dreaded Pay-to-Win monster. Why would anyone bother grinding c-bills out in inferior IS mechs when they can throw 20 dollars at pgi and grab a timberwolf with 6 clan lrm 20s with no minimum range.
And what happens when a merc core fully outfitted with clan salvage drops 12 omnimechs against anyone? The rich merc companies will be the most powerful force in the entire inner sphere.

No matter what you say, you cannot justify brokenly OP clan tech, and unbalanced drops.
If you nerf clan tech down to similar IS levels, and then bring the costs down to a similar level, then it totally eliminates the issue. Clanners get easier access to clan tech the same way a draconis combine player can buy a dragon and a gauss rifle for less money then players who are not in good standing with the combine. IS players will have to buy clan tech off the black market, which means they are spending more anyway, but not the 25million+ c bills some omnimechs cost.

Just to be clear, I have been a clanner since the age of 4. I'm the last person who would want to see clan tech get the nerfbat, but I would rather have a real game then a broken as all hell game where IS is useless and everyone plays clan. Your "keep clan op" sentiment is far more absurd then any "make clanners fair" sentiment will ever be.

And aside from that, your idea of end-game content only works in RPGs like warcraft, where there is a divide between players who are wearing full raid gear and hitting garrosh hellscream on heroic, and players who are leveling out new characters. In a dynamic environment like the one mechwarrior online is supposed to have, those divides do not exist.

Edited by pbiggz, 24 October 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[flounder2760]

pbiggz, on 24 October 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

No, you arent thinking this through. If we do what you say and leave clans expensive but brokenly OP whilst having a binary face a company in drops the following things will happen.

Mass exodus of IS to clan as IS weapons generally become inferior and utterly useless despite their lower cost.
The dreaded Pay-to-Win monster. Why would anyone bother grinding c-bills out in inferior IS mechs when they can throw 20 dollars at pgi and grab a timberwolf with 6 clan lrm 20s with no minimum range.
And what happens when a merc core fully outfitted with clan salvage drops 12 omnimechs against anyone? The rich merc companies will be the most powerful force in the entire inner sphere.

No matter what you say, you cannot justify brokenly OP clan tech, and unbalanced drops.
If you nerf clan tech down to similar IS levels, and then bring the costs down to a similar level, then it totally eliminates the issue. Clanners get easier access to clan tech the same way a draconis combine player can buy a dragon and a gauss rifle for less money then players who are not in good standing with the combine. IS players will have to buy clan tech off the black market, which means they are spending more anyway, but not the 25million+ c bills some omnimechs cost.

Just to be clear, I have been a clanner since the age of 4. I'm the last person who would want to see clan tech get the nerfbat, but I would rather have a real game then a broken as all hell game where IS is useless and everyone plays clan. Your "keep clan op" sentiment is far more absurd then any "make clanners fair" sentiment will ever be.

And aside from that, your idea of end-game content only works in RPGs like warcraft, where there is a divide between players who are wearing full raid gear and hitting garrosh hellscream on heroic, and players who are leveling out new characters. In a dynamic environment like the one mechwarrior online is supposed to have, those divides do not exist.

all of your problems would be solved with a better MM system rather then nerfing the pee outa clans to the point of why even bother putting them into the game

Edited by flounder2760, 24 October 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[pbiggz]

But they wouldn't be solved. Not with community warfare, where players have greater control over who they face and when. Clearly you haven't been paying attention. If clan technology is clear cut superior to IS, there will be a mass exodus to the clan NPC faction, where people can get it cheaper, and IS tech will be completely irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the match maker.

And we're not saying nerf it into the ground, were saying make it level with IS tech, so stop accusing us of that.

[Pariah Devalis]

Exactly. The idea is to make them side-grades, not directly superior, whenever possible. I mean, they will always be superior just due to weight and slots being better, but there are ways to make them different without making them outright hands down superior in every way, shape, or form. Some things are given, like clan LRMs having no minimum range and all Clan lasers having longer range than their IS counterparts. That is a huge advantage for the Clan weapon system. Is there any particular reason why you should want them to also deal 1/3 more damage? Or do you just want an easy mode button?

In the case of Clan LRMs you could flatten their flight trajectory to make them inferior to Inner Sphere LRMs for indirect fire purposes. In the case of lasers, you can shorten the beam duration so that sloppy aim is punished but accurate fire is rewarded without touching the total damage of the weapon systems. In the case of lighter ballistics, you can make the ammo carry less per ton while leaving the weapon itself alone. It makes the weapons different, with its own advantages, but not necessarily any more dangerous. Perhaps C-ERPPC hit for 13 (rather than 15) damage, but have a 5 second (instead of 4 second) recharge time, promoting, again, accuracy, with a frontloaded damage.

That said, I would be delighted if the matchmaker was set up to pit 10 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs and have a balanced fight, with the loss of two mechs made up for by superior individual firepower and mobility. However look at the matchmaker. They are having insane amounts of difficulty getting it to work and it is only pitting IS against IS right now. It may be entirely prudent to look into alternative methods of weapon balance, even though it goes horribly against the Clan method to use anything but systems of 5s.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 October 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[flounder2760]

pbiggz, on 24 October 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

But they wouldn't be solved. Not with community warfare, where players have greater control over who they face and when. Clearly you haven't been paying attention. If clan technology is clear cut superior to IS, there will be a mass exodus to the clan NPC faction, where people can get it cheaper, and IS tech will be completely irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the match maker.

And we're not saying nerf it into the ground, were saying make it level with IS tech, so stop accusing us of that.

level with IS tech means its not clan tech.

its just IS tech by another name in which case i stand by the why implement it in the game if it isnt what its supposed to be.

[Vargralor]

The other option is to class any mech with any clan tech as a "Clan Mech" and have the matchmaker count "Clan Mech"s as 1.5 mechs for the drop, i.e. if one side has clan tech on all mechs and one has none then the match will be 8 vs 12. This give IS teams a numerical advantage which in practice was the only advantage they had over the clans anyway. Additionally, lock the targetting system of Omnimechs to prevent them from targeting a mech another friendly has targeted (Clan honor forbids teaming up on targets) and then I don't think there are many problems with clan weapons being superior to IS weapons.

On top of all of that, clan weapons in IS mechs were notoriously finicky to install and maintain in the early invasion days so have them trigger ghost heat at a much earlier threshold OR have them potentially jam like an Ultra AC 5.

[pbiggz]

flounder2760, on 24 October 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

level with IS tech means its not clan tech.

its just IS tech by another name in which case i stand by the why implement it in the game if it isnt what its supposed to be.

Level with IS tech means its not game breaking. Even jordan weisman admitted that given a second chance he wouldn't have implemented clans as so game-breakingly overpowered in the tabletop. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing more diversified weapons and chassis to the game to give players more choice and add extra depth. What you're saying is if clans aren't broken then there is no point in having them in the game at all and that doesn't make any sense, not story-wise or gameplay wise. You can't possibly justify removing 20 factions from the game just because they aren't buff enough.

[dal10]

17*

[101011]

flounder2760, on 24 October 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

so what im getting from this thread is bla bla bla nerf clan weapons so they are not obviously superior and therefore worth the enormous prices they cost.

Well, you can’t really leave them as-is, can you?

Quote

if clan weapons arent anything but alternate variants of the same {Scrap} we have for innersphere
why the heck will i pay extra currency or what have you to buy clan mechs and weapons if all the IS {Noble MechWarriors} nerf them into uselessness so they can have a percieved advantage in some form or fashion over their clan counterparts.

That’s exactly what they are though, more developed versions of IS weaponry (in most instances).

Quote

a timberwolf costs 24mill c-bills according to sarna and seeing as we would have to buy 3 to master it out thats 72 million cbills in chassis alone....

No sane person would grind 24 million c-bills for a 75 tonner. Heck, I have trouble grinding even 8 million.

Quote

thats not even considering if there is an exchange rate function to be implemented for converting cbills to what the clan side of this game will use for currency( honor?) if at all.
i say this about conversion because, if we dont have it, how are IS pilots gonna fill their shiny atlasi with clan er medium lasers and uac/20s to deal with the clan threat i believe many IS mechs grabbed as much clan tech as they could from salvaging destroyed clan mechs to offset the tech advantage. IIC variants anyone?

Wrong. You can’t put Clan weaponry on IS tech, period. There will be absolutely no Atlai running CERML and UAC/20’s. The IIC variants were Clan improvements on chassis’ that were already in existence when they left the IS (‘Mech 2.0, if you will) with improved tech, but not omni.

Quote

so in summary i say if you guys do what your wanting todo to clan weapons and not make them anything but a peculiar version of IS weaponry instead of the obviously superior weapon they are supposed to be you also have to decrease the prices for said clan weaponry. and if you do that your also by definition gonna make the clan mechs cheaper and easier to get ahold of as-well.
and then i say what is the point of calling them clan anymore?

Uh…the fact that they’re Clan? No one’s going to look at a Timber Wolf and say, “Because this ‘mech doesn’t have crazily overpowered weaponry, it must be IS tech.”

Quote

because after all the nerfs( *balance* ) you guys would like to make IS comparable to clan
you would still have 2 stars vs 3 lances in MM so they are in an even harder position.

No, they’re trying to make It so that Clan tech isn’t an “I win” button. (Good luck with that, by the way. PGI’s gonna do their own thing anyways.)

Quote

most of balance issues can be solved by fixing MM to throw lighter chassis of clan mechs versus heavier drops of IS. leave weapons the way they are would make for more interesting gameplay
because like one of my templar brothers has always said to me.
"where is the honor in crushing IS forces with 10 daishis when we could give them a proper fight with lighter frames and gain more honor."

And what about the people who don’t give a {Scrap} about ‘honor’ and just want to steamroll puggies?

[pbiggz]

101011, on 24 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Wrong. You can’t put Clan weaponry on IS tech, period. There will be absolutely no Atlai running CERML and UAC/20’s. The IIC variants were Clan improvements on chassis’ that were already in existence when they left the IS (‘Mech 2.0, if you will) with improved tech, but not omni.

I dont entirely agree with that. I believe i mentioned in the OP that weapons should be mixed tech. If they are brought to a balance point that shouldn't be a problem, and it does happen in canon such as during the battle of twycross.

Quote

The Jade Falcon Eyrie, as expected, was made up primarily of Inner Sphere 'Mechs, either leftover from the Star League Defense Force or taken during the Invasion as salvage, upgraded with Clan weapons but not the same quality of materials.

http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Twycross

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, you tear apart flounder's half-baked argument with pleasing efficiency.

Edited by pbiggz, 24 October 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Vargralor]

101011, on 24 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

And what about the people who don’t give a {Scrap} about ‘honor’ and just want to steamroll puggies?

That should not be an available option. If gamebreakingly powerful mechs and weapons are going to be introduced into the game then either they have to be one of:
a.) balanced by game mechanics
b.) completely replace existing mechs and tech
c.) balanced through metagaming mechanics
d.) broken and completely destroy game balance

Many people here are suggesting ways to implement option a.) and balance the tech. I would suggest that instead we leave the tech unbalanced go for option c.) and balance via the metagame mechanics.

Clan tech should not be available for use outside of Community Warfare matches except in discrete queues. No stomping PUGS with clan tech unless they queue for it. Matchmaking could have a prematch phase in Community Warfare where clan groups bid for the right to drop following clan bidding rules, i.e. bidding away numbers and tonnage. If you want to stomp in 12 Dire Wolves (no I won't call them Daishis ) then you better hope no other clan groups want to play as they will easily outbid you.

Edited by Corvald Tyrska, 24 October 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[pbiggz]

Corvald Tyrska, on 24 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

That should not be an available option. If gamebreakingly powerful mechs and weapons are going to be introduced into the game then either they have to be one of:
a) balanced by game mechanics
completely replace existing mechs and tech
c) balanced through metagaming mechanics
d) broken and completely destroy game balance

Many people here are suggesting ways to implement option a) and balance the tech. I would suggest that instead we leave the tech unbalanced go for option c) and balance via the metagame mechanics.

Clan tech should not be available for use outside of Community Warfare matches except in discrete queues. No stomping PUGS with clan tech unless they queue for it. Matchmaking could have a prematch phase in Community Warfare where clan groups bid for the right to drop following clan bidding rules, i.e. bidding away numbers and tonnage. If you want to stomp in 12 Dire Wolves (no I won't call them Daishis ) then you better hope no other clan groups want to play as they will easily outbid you.

As i said before, numerically balancing using the meta game sidesteps the issue and still does not solve the problem of mass exodus to the clans for superior tech. We need to hit the problem at its core, not suppress it with other remedies to hide it.

[Firenze]

I honestly believe that the clan tech needs nerfing. Hell, its super OP in tabletop... so why should it stay OP in a freaking competitive shooter, that needs balance to stay fair?

Honestly, the changes in this thread are pretty good ideas. Clan tech needs a look at before they even think about fully implementing it.