103 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

Roland, on 23 October 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Maybe I missed something, but isn't the small pulse still a 0.5 second duration? Compared to the standard small laser's 0.75 second?

Did it get cut below that level?

SPL: 3.4 dmg, 0.5s duration, 1t, 3h
MPL: 6dmg, 0.6s duration, 2t, 5h

[Krivvan]

Pjwned, on 23 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Every pulse laser in the game just seems like garbage with the lower range, higher weight, AND higher heat. The only benefit you get out of it is a small increase in damage, and this is also ignoring that it's more difficult to land your pulses effectively.

The intended advantage is the lower duration. So basically you get far more damage per second of it firing.

This may help or hurt you depending on the circumstances.

The thing is, pulse lasers actually are quite effective looking at them in a basic comparison ignoring tonnage and etc, they are especially good at dealing out a lot more damage to light mechs.

The problem is that their advantages aren't quite enough to counteract their very heavy disadvantages.

[Christof Romulus]

So, I feel that it is again time to post about Pulse Laser technology - if you remember these rules you will know when you actually want to mount them:

1. Reduce the effective "Size" of the weapon by 1 to determine its competition. Ie: Large Pulse lasers are direct competitors with Medium Lasers. Medium Pulse lasers are competition to SMALL lasers. (Small Pulse lasers are also competition to Small lasers)

2. Count the number of energy hard points available on the mech: Mechs with a LOW number of energy hardpoints, 2 or less (SHD-2H, AS7-D-DC, etc.) benefit from putting the largest weapon possible in the slots available. A BLR-1G with 6 energy hardpoints will almost always be better served by Medium Lasers over Large Pulse lasers, but a VTR-9B could find potential use of two LPL.

3. Remember MechWarrior dynamics: The more damage you want to deal the more you pay (exponentially) to do it. - Whether that be in Heat (ERPPC, ERLL), Weight (AC 2, Pulse lasers), Critical locations (AC 5+), Range (Pulse lasers).

With that in mind if you plan on using Pulse lasers, they are NOT secondary weapons, but PRIMARY weapons - so plan accordingly. Just like if your AC 20 is your primary and you have SSRMs as a secondary (though it's more likely your secondary will be a PPC if you can afford the weight), if you bring Pulse lasers they are your primary weapon system, and everything else you bring is secondary to that.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b608d092d0760b5

There are other builds out there, and probably far superior ones, but there are times when bringing pulse lasers is the right choice. It's just not as easy to find them as with other weapon systems.

[Navy Sixes]

OP pretty much nailed it. I've seen some good cases here for pulse weapons on lights, but I don't run them (I guess I've got those LCTs I'm going to have to do something with...) myself.

Every time I make the space/tonnage for a pulse weapon(s), I spend a lot of time looking at the numbers in Smurfy, a few times driving it around the training grounds, more time looking at the numbers in Smurfy, some time on the advice forums, more time at Smurfy, and then finally I always wind-up deciding more ammo for something else or more heatsinks or more armor or, let's face it, more anything is more valuable that a pulse-variant.

[Felio]

They are great for lights who need to pinpoint damage in a hurry and get the hell out of there. Of course, they are generally too heavy for lights to really carry. There are exceptions that do well with SPL or a few MPL, but yeah.

[Bacl]

Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Several of us have long said the pulse lasers need to become a kind of laser machinegun dealing sustained DPS for their heat.

Or they keep pulsing until your heat cant keep it up, think of it as some kind of continuous laser. I kinda like the laser machine gun idea too, but i d prefer the steady beam until you fry your mech up

[Bacl]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

So perfectly suited for fast Mechs that rely on a run & gun style of play to survive... I agree that they aren't as good as they can be, but they do have a niche within MW:O.



Ugh... Can't wait for the day that the Alpha-Warrior: Online mentality goes away...
No wonder people complain about Pulses being "too hot", when their entire strategy is to shoot every weapon on their Mech at the same time the entire match.

This is when it come to energy vs ballistic, ballistic has some more more DPS and much less HPS so lasers have to be shot in batteries and (if possible) jump behind cover and wait till they reload and cool off. Chaining medium lasers while the guy is shooting you with AC5 for example wont do has much damage and you will heat up much much faster, thats is without mentionning lasers are generally shorter range, damage over time, longer cooldown, are bound to ghost heat and well follow the rainbow and you will know who shot it.

The day lasers can compete with ballistic and a rework of the whole heat system will make people think twice before going alpha ( or doing so with risk).

Looking at how they manage things up over there, they should put the art team at balancing since they seem the be the only competent employees over there...

[Shadey99]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Wait. Didn't you just say:
So... Um... Which is it? Did people in TT fire as much as they wanted or not?
Is that what people should be able to do in MWO or not?

If you read my quotes you'd see "Have to" in the first one and "as they wanted". Both statements are true without contradiction. What you wanted to do and how much of a heat penalty you could live with decided how much you fired and when.

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Sorry, but I haven't seen anybody say that 2 PPCs at once should be a no-go.
People should be able to fire off 2 or 3, or 4 PPCs at once if they want - BUT, their heat should go through the roof, and there should be some consequences to that.
Unless, like you said, they have an appropriate amount of Heat Sinks installed to negate that heat.

I originally commented (to which you replied to, then me, then the comment just above) which was all about how these 'alphas' break the immersion of MWO compared to TT. I've never ever in the MWO forums heard anyone not mean '2+ weapons used at the same time for 'instant' damage', hence 2 PPC+Gauss 'alphas'... And at least a suggestion that we should never be able to fire weapons together.

[Epicedion]

Pulse lasers should really have a duration of "instant" and do all of their damage to one spot. Then they'd be worth taking.

[OneEyed Jack]

If you think Pulse Lasers are about the little bit of added damage, you're missing the point. It's all about the beam duration.

When I first started I thought Pulses would be great, and ended up sucking with them. The shorter beam gave me less time to sweep lights or correct aim (this was way before HSR). As I got better I came to enjoy them again, because I didn't need to correct or sweep as much, and it was easier to keep more of the beam on target than standard. Then my aim improved even more, and I could keep a standard beam on target better, so didn't need the shorter beam. I stopped using them in favor of standard lasers for improved range.

So, finally we come to the current Pulses. I fully understand and agree with all the arguments against them. But at the same time I find them incredibly useful on certain builds for different reasons. They're great for highly mobile mechs to reduce exposure time/time on target. You can simply land more of the damage while also dodging, twisting, jumping, chasing other mobile targets in and around cover.

I certainly don't recommend them for every mech, but on the mechs they do work on, with a pilot that can take advantage of them, they work very well. Standard Lasers are the work-horse energy weapons. They're versatile and will do the job reasonably most of the time and are often the best choice. Pulses are a niche weapon you don't just throw on everything. That's OK, in my book. I wouldn't argue with bringing their range closer to standards, so it's less of a sacrifice, but that's about it.

Most of the posts I read going on and on about how awful they are just sound like "Whaaaa! I want to use Pulse Lasers because they're 'special' and using them makes me 'special', but not theeeeeese Pulse Lasers. They're harrrrrrd."

I say, if you don't like them, don't use them, but there's no reason they need to be as ubiquitous as standard Lasers.

[Christof Romulus]

Epicedion, on 23 October 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Pulse lasers should really have a duration of "instant" and do all of their damage to one spot. Then they'd be worth taking.

Nope, they shouldn't.
Then they would work far too well with PPCs, giving us back 40 point energy alpha while avoiding ghost heat within 300m.

[Victor Morson]

Kunae, on 23 October 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

SPL: 3.4 dmg, 0.5s duration, 1t, 3h
MPL: 6dmg, 0.6s duration, 2t, 5h

MPL's are basically too heavy (in general, with exceptions like the Streaktaro I mentioned) and too hot in groups to be effective as a primary weapon, but SPLs offer the most damage-per-0.10 seconds on target of any gun in the <5 ton range.

When you are attempting to gun down Spiders, that extra half-second between a ML and SL is absolutely devastating, and the extra damage coupled with the duration makes them stand vastly out over regular SL.

It's really not for every 'mech of course, just lights. But I'm OK with that being the SPL's niche to be entirely honest with you; it's a good niche to have.

[Roland]

Victor Morson, on 23 October 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

MPL's are basically too heavy (in general, with exceptions like the Streaktaro I mentioned) and too hot in groups to be effective as a primary weapon, but SPLs offer the most damage-per-0.10 seconds on target of any gun in the <5 ton range.

When you are attempting to gun down Spiders, that extra half-second between a ML and SL is absolutely devastating, and the extra damage coupled with the duration makes them stand vastly out over regular SL.

It's really not for every 'mech of course, just lights. But I'm OK with that being the SPL's niche to be entirely honest with you; it's a good niche to have.

Ya, I just can't see the SPL being that useful though, when I could take a medium laser for the same tonnage.

At point blank, against lights, it might be easier to use. But in every other situation, I'd rather have the ML's range.

[Pjwned]

SirLANsalot, on 23 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

MPL's are made for fast mechs, anything over 100kph anyways. Reason for this is due to there short range, if your a fast mech already RANGE IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR YOU. Like a Jenner or a Cicada with MPLs are good mechs, because if you keep your speed up, it won't be an issue for you to keep in range of whatever your shooting at.

Saying range is not an issue is misleading though, there are plenty of times where you can't just go running around in the open blasting away at people unless you want to die horribly, so firing and then taking cover might be the most prudent choice. Of course, if you're doing that and firing with a weapon that doesn't have enough range, then that's a problem.

Not saying you can't ever do the same with pulse lasers since you might be firing from pretty close range, but personally I find at myself at 200m+ distances when that happens most of the time, and that's when pulse laser damage starts dropping off when it already doesn't have a lot of extra damage to begin with.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 October 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Xmith]

I would like for an experienced D-DC pilot to mount 2 LPL and 1 AC/20 with 16 DHS, no other weapons and check your results. You might be surprised. I sure was. I decided to drop the SRMs and go with 2 LPL instead of the one with an AC/20. To this day average damage is 450 with this loadout. One thing I try not to do with LPL is sweep like you would with lasers when torso twisting. Because of the high heat, chainfire is a must.

[XX Sulla XX]

Shorter burn time is important some times. IF it is important enough is up to you. But yes they could use a buff.

[Krivvan]

Roland, on 23 October 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Ya, I just can't see the SPL being that useful though, when I could take a medium laser for the same tonnage.

At point blank, against lights, it might be easier to use. But in every other situation, I'd rather have the ML's range.

Precisely. SPLs are very, very good weapons in their niche. The problem is that it isn't applicable enough to sacrifice so much of your ability to strafe, skirmish and otherwise do anything beyond 90m.

The only time I'd take SPLs is if it's an organized 1v1 light duel. Otherwise I'd rather not.

Pulse weapons in general aren't bad, the problem is they aren't typically used because the sacrifice is a bit too great.

[SirLANsalot]

Krivvan, on 23 October 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Precisely. SPLs are very, very good weapons in their niche. The problem is that it isn't applicable enough to sacrifice so much of your ability to strafe, skirmish and otherwise do anything beyond 90m.

The only time I'd take SPLs is if it's an organized 1v1 light duel. Otherwise I'd rather not.

Pulse weapons in general aren't bad, the problem is they aren't typically used because the sacrifice is a bit too great.

LCT-3M
5 SPL, and heat is hardly an issue on that mech. VERY fast, and is the only mech I see SL or SPL being viable, everything else either has too few Energy slots, or is too slow to be able to bring those short weapons to bear (jenner-F).
LCT-3M
(SL mobile anit missile platform)

[divinedisclaimer]

Pjwned, on 23 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Every pulse laser in the game just seems like garbage with the lower range, higher weight, AND higher heat. The only benefit you get out of it is a small increase in damage, and this is also ignoring that it's more difficult to land your pulses effectively.

Other than damage, the only disadvantage you don't get is pulse lasers taking up more slots, but when you only get a 20% damage increase (less if it's not a medium pulse) then it's just NOT worth all the drawbacks, especially considering its weight is doubled for small & medium pulse lasers, with large pulse lasers coming out the best as far as the damage:tonnage ratio goes but it still sucks.

I could see myself maybe using a medium pulse laser instead of 2 medium lasers if for some reason the mech would be too hot otherwise, but that's pretty much it, and I've yet to find a good build where I need to do that. The main thing that sucks is how much heavier each pulse laser is, because chances are really high that I would be better off with a bigger engine, another heat sink, a couple jump jets, more ammo, more armor, or whatever else that isn't a pulse laser.

Much like flamers I really don't see much use for any of the pulse lasers, the drawbacks are just way too high for what little you get out of it compared to regular lasers.

20.6 damage alpha Raven 3L, 1Lrg pulse & 2 mediums. Max engine. Max armor. ECM.

6-7 firing cycles before hot.

/thread

You're probably not good enough to work it, though.

[Victor Morson]

Roland, on 23 October 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Ya, I just can't see the SPL being that useful though, when I could take a medium laser for the same tonnage.

At point blank, against lights, it might be easier to use. But in every other situation, I'd rather have the ML's range.

Definitely true for the majority of 'mechs. But if you own a Jenner, try a 6SPL setup and you will never go back. There are other exceptions too; I have a few mediums that mount SPL over ML like my 9AL specifically to counter light 'mechs.

The second beam duration - the reduced damage = Far less "damage per milisecond" than the SPL, which in a 140kph bit of chaos, is a lot more than it sounds like.

MPLs need a serious buff though I think; I'd take one on very specific light hunting 'mechs with 1-2 energy slots but that's about it.

LPL duration is still too high; they'd be a great alternative to the PPC now that the heat scale has changed, for a more dedicated brawler build. But until that's reduced, I can't really justify it.

Sadly I was hoping they'd continue with the "aggressive weapon balance" for beam weapons we were promised, so I'll be hoping to see something in the future.

PS: ER Large badly needs a duration decrease too. I'd personally be happy if ER had "less duration, more recycle time" or something, in particular with all the other ER Beams coming in. But I still have a hard time justifying the extra 200m range when, at that range, you're going to be spreading damage around a lot. This is a little more debatable though.

divinedisclaimer, on 23 October 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

20.6 damage alpha Raven 3L, 1Lrg pulse & 2 mediums. Max engine. Max armor. ECM.

6-7 firing cycles before hot.

/thread

You're probably not good enough to work it, though.

If I pit the 6 SPL Jenner against two of those Ravens and neither Raven would be making it back. Or a 4 SPL / 2 Streak.

The LPL isn't nearly as awful as it used to be through the virtue that it's competing weapon - the PPC - got much hotter, pretty much.

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 October 2013 - 04:53 PM.