123 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Just a Reminder:

Quote

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn't attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design--it's meant to be there--yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 October 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[Gevurah]

Sandpit, on 29 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

I'm sure you would. I'm just wondering what mentality it is that makes you think if you don't get the absolute most out of a free bonus once a day how that's a waste. This is a ridiculous argument all the way around. If you don't want to worry about caps then sit at base and wait for attackers. Not to mention they've already announced (several times actually) that there will be a deathmatch mode where you can dakka dakka and pew pew to your heart's content with no need to worry about anything else. So why is it we have 4-5 threads (at least) saying "I hate cap victories" when there's a perfectly viable game mode you're asking for in the works?

also, one question. Are you saying you would rather lose than win by cap?

and who said you never win without cap rushers? how is that even a remark made? where was that even hinted at in my post?

"It would be wasted if you didn't get a win and didn't get it. "

By virtue of being a bonus that only occurs when you win, then it will not be wasted - it will simply be 'potential'.

By remaining unused potential, it can be better used through maximum gain. This isn't rocket science. 1200 points on a cap rush win with bonus & premium is a joke, at best.

Moreover it's not always a binary solution set. It's not "you're going to automatically lose if we don't cap rush." - many times the game has not had any chance to shape up. It's simply cap rushing for the sake of 'win at any cost' (including potential experience/cbills). I like winning, sure. I like cap wins too. I hate when cap rushing idiots waste my bonus by not even trying to put up a fight and effectively ensuring that we will get the minimum reward for the game.

The reality is that getting 3000+ for a game is more than getting 1200 for a game. End of story. If I lose one game because we don't cap rush, and turn around and win the next one via a fight with all it's component kills, enemy kills, savior bonuses, assists, etc I am STILL averaging a higher amount of EXP/cbills than if I play with teammates whose entire skillset is cap-rushing.

Edited by Gevurah, 30 October 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

If everyone stays on defence, then no one gets anything done. I have no general issue with wins by caps - but I do wish there was a non capping mode that people had the option of choosing.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

There is NO difference in the game modes outside of one having 3 more cap points. Assault should be Team Death Match with no cap points and Conquest (which is a ***** game mode) should be a capture based mode.

Improvements...again....Remove cap from Assault, and make Conquest more like UT2004 Onslaught mode, you have to link capture points to destroy the enemy base.

[Sandpit]

TB Freelancer, on 30 October 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Cap wins make up about 15% of wins if I recall the last official word on the subject correctly. I suspect those stats greatly fluctuate from time to time. To be perfectly blunt, if so many players didn't act so stupidly cap wins would account for less than 1%, with a little common sense it should be so rare that its nearly unheard of.

I'm going to be perfectly blunt here. The anticap morons that wants to "you know....shoot stuff" or "stomp around in stompy robots...blah blah" are the guys who cost the loosing side the match nearly every time.

How people with enough firing synapses to log onto forums, play a game, type, read, etc. can be so breathtakingly stupid (tactically speaking) at the same time when we're talking about such a fundamentally basic game type is pretty astonishing....

Maybe like Eric isn't dumb enough to drive nascar, maybe I'll never be dumb enough to understand the anti cap hate or the things those players do.



I can't help but mention this one recent match in Terra Therma. My team manhandled the opposition pushing them all the way back to their base and wiping out all but 2 with 7 of us left on the board and our entire team less than 300m from the enemy base.

Then the base warning comes on, the last two were apparently capping and had capture accelerators from how quickly it was moving. I watch in awe of the breathtaking ineptitude displayed before me. All 6 of my assault/heavy allies turn away from the base and in a completely futile attempt they take a guaranteed victory and just throw it away never coming within hundreds of meters of the base before it was capped.

For the record I did point out from the second the base was being capped how plainly obvious it was that we had no hope of reaching them and that we needed 3 mechs capping to ensure a victory. Not one listened.

So I just stood there outside their base looking at it in dismay knowing full well I couldn't outcap 2 mechs alone while my six allies were just throwing the match in the most spectacular display preposterous of anti cap mentality I've yet to encounter.

They prolonged the match and threw away 10 kills worth of salvage through stupidity so mystifying that no rational mind could ever unravel that level of madness.



I'd have to say yes....hell they'd prefer to lose to a cap than win by one. [size=4]There is no reasoning with a mindless fanatic who's opinion isn't based on reason or logic, just belief.

i'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it like this...

[malfnuction]

Dear OP

This is MechWARRIOR, not MechSCOUT. scouts have their role but the game is about fighting and not capping. although cap is a legitimate tactic if the team is losing, to run out and try to cap out of the gate in Assault is a waste of peoples gaming time.
lights should be rewarded according to what they do for team,not themselves. otherwise everybody become light and just cap

[Sandpit]

the game is about winning. Just because all you want to do is stomp and shoot doesn't mean that's the only way to play. stop QQing about it already. When they intro the new deathmatch mode play that, in the meantime play and stop caps or not. Makes no difference to me. With all the cap rage lately I make it a point to try and cap now

[Aaron45]

Audlyn, on 23 October 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Yet again...All I read are "Caps are suckish, make it more assault friendly"
Which, quite frankly, the game is severely leaning towards the assault/heavy favoritism already. To say to get rid of caps because everybody is too stubborn to turn back or make a defensive plan is...childish.
They already appeased you once. YOU HEAVIES (talking to the slow-*** mechs who do nothing but complain about caps) already stated that "Cap times were too fast"
Now...I can give you an increased cap time (although I think it kind of killed conquest mode)
But that wasn't enough, was it? You STILL don't take the time to rush back and defend...that is why I cap you. When you are too stubborn to ignore one objective...I feel you deserve to be capped. QQ all you want, it makes me smile.
I have heard the idea of "put a single cap in the center of the map". That, again, just leans favoritism towards the assaults, so you battle it out in the center more.
Sorry for the rants...I tend to think of myself as a "light mech pilot" and the hate is just...aggravating.

Uggly post. Full of hate and ignorance

I never cap on assault if iam playing with my light. Only less skilled pilots do cap and fear the fight against heavier mechs. If ya good enuff you ll know how the feeling is to anhilate an atlas with ya light. No skills- much fear= you ll end up like a capper and derprage the forum with ya QQ

Edited by Aaron45, 30 October 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Samziel]

If we are losing I'd rather win than fight and lose. If someone starts bitching me about it, I just ignore them and carry on.

Ofc I rather fight than cap, but sometimes you just cant win fighting.

Edited by Samziel, 30 October 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[Roadkill]

These threads always remind me of MW4 and the whiners who hated the fact that a good pilot in a light could out-score a poptart in a Gladiator in Team Attrition. They'd whine about the fact that the light's record was 4-10 while their poptart's record was 10-4 so they should have won.

Um... no. It's Team Attrition, not Team Destruction. Go play TD if you want to win based on your KDR. Oh, no one plays TD? Not my problem... maybe that's because TD is a boring Charlie Fox of poptarts giving each other reach-arounds?

Of course it's not exactly the same in MWO because all we have is team deathmatch v.1 and team deathmatch v.2.

[CDLord HHGD]

NRP, on 24 October 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Sometimes it's nice to . . . you know, shoot things?

Easy, just stay at your base then...... Defend it. Eventually there will be a light there or if everyone stayed to defend, the whole enemy team.

[Audlyn]

malfnuction, on 30 October 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Dear OP

This is MechWARRIOR, not MechSCOUT. scouts have their role but the game is about fighting and not capping. although cap is a legitimate tactic if the team is losing, to run out and try to cap out of the gate in Assault is a waste of peoples gaming time.
lights should be rewarded according to what they do for team,not themselves. otherwise everybody become light and just cap

While it is mechWARRIOR. It is also war.
Do we use purely tanks to win wars? No foot soldiers whatsoever?
No battleships?
No dogfighting Airplanes?
Wrong
We use everything at our disposal to win a war.
That means SCOUTS should never be put aside and not classified as "warriors"
You try playing a light mech, it is quite hard.
Learn to defend.
Learn to build strategy.
Learn to have a backup plan. Not everything will go your way.

[990Dreams]

Audlyn, on 23 October 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Yet again...All I read are "Caps are suckish, make it more assault friendly"
Which, quite frankly, the game is severely leaning towards the assault/heavy favoritism already. To say to get rid of caps because everybody is too stubborn to turn back or make a defensive plan is...childish.
They already appeased you once. YOU HEAVIES (talking to the slow-*** mechs who do nothing but complain about caps) already stated that "Cap times were too fast"
Now...I can give you an increased cap time (although I think it kind of killed conquest mode)
But that wasn't enough, was it? You STILL don't take the time to rush back and defend...that is why I cap you. When you are too stubborn to ignore one objective...I feel you deserve to be capped. QQ all you want, it makes me smile.
I have heard the idea of "put a single cap in the center of the map". That, again, just leans favoritism towards the assaults, so you battle it out in the center more.
Sorry for the rants...I tend to think of myself as a "light mech pilot" and the hate is just...aggravating.

While capping is an option, that doesn't make it the most profitable option, or the least cowardly option. I personally think that they need to make a deathmatch mode, no other objectives than destroy the enemy team. Then we'll see how many people play assault.

Audlyn, on 01 November 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

While it is mechWARRIOR. It is also war.
Do we use purely tanks to win wars? No foot soldiers whatsoever?
No battleships?
No dogfighting Airplanes?
Wrong
We use everything at our disposal to win a war.
That means SCOUTS should never be put aside and not classified as "warriors"
You try playing a light mech, it is quite hard.
Learn to defend.
Learn to build strategy.
Learn to have a backup plan. Not everything will go your way.

And perhaps you should learn to fight. Scouts get info and don't attack unless they need to. I play with all classes (including lights) and I do NOT cap to win (except as a last resort). Play conquest if you want to cap.

And now to dissect the roles of your list:
Battleships: to carry aircraft, fight other battleships and provide support
Airplanes: To provide support and fight other airplanes
Soldiers: For fleet footed combat, to snipe, and to overall fight other soldiers
Tanks: To assist the soldiers and to fight other tanks
Scouts: to gather recon.

Notice that the common purpose of everything you listed is to "provide support" or to "fight other {insert name}s." Lights should help the others fight, not run scared. That is what conquest is for.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 01 November 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

DavidHurricane, on 01 November 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I personally think that they need to make a deathmatch mode

miSs, on 18 October 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Redshift2k5: On Twitter Bryan mentioned they were working on an "Attack & Defend" game mode. AtD 48 Paul says "Attack/Defend is our next target." The recent Creative Developer Update for October instead lists new "Skirmish" mode as being ready for Internal Testing, which the previously-mentioned "Attack & Defend" mode being further down in the In Development list.

Which game mode is coming first, and why?



Answer from Bryan: Timing wise, we are done the basic functionality and could turn it on anytime. To clarify Deathmatch, we are only supporting 1 v 1 Deathmatch, which is technically TDM from our POV. Down the road we can examine expanding Deathmath to include more players.

That being said, we are waiting for some more features to come on line before releasing it.

Apparently they are working on it.

[Peter2k]

I don't realy want to get into this discussion.

My most memorable experiences in my Jenner have been when I supported my lance.
Harassing, jumping, tagging like crazy, turning jumping more.
The enemy team is so disoriented, hunting that lone Jenner, my lance is scoring kills, as are the pugs following my lance.
Everyone is hunting me, I shoot at everything red marked that moves, until suddenly the numbers of enemy's drops off sharply, they are in disarray.

They engage my team, finally realizing that hunting that lone Jenner wasn't a good idea, but by now they are quite damaged and several mechs down already.

I couldn't in the world bring myself to play a cap game.
The one thing I was missing in all the action would have been that other light, doing god knows what.
Having a jumping harassing ECM buddie would've been great.

A lance of light mechs can wreak incredible havoc, u know fighting, not capping the hell out of them.

I guess most light pilots are too scared or under skilled to use them properly.
What happens to that capping spider if it runs into a streak kintaro, or other fast mech with loads of streaks(one of my shadowhawks goes 106 with 4 streaks, not so easy to run from that, I know as a light pilot myself)

There have been many times where I brought down a mech in a team effort, sometimes even alone, that where a lot heavier, while only having 4 medium lasers and 2 streaks.

It's incredibly satisfying to bring down those big things while you're running around in a small can.

I would not say that this game leans towards the heavier classes per se.
However having a lot of armor let's people make mistakes and live.
In a light you're done for if u make the same ones as in assault class mechs.

I pilot all weight classes, with mediums the least, the other 3 classes I love.

However just like how it was mentioned before, u need teamwork.

Capping is valid if u can't win anymore else, but for me, I still rather go out guns blazing.

The things I hate are only those cap runs, just a waste of time, or where a ddc decides to walk the long way around and cap the enemy, only to have his team die without his support, and he lost too, we took him apart, like he has a chance against 6 mechs alone. He scored the lowest in his team, deserved it too in my mind.

We will see where we stand on this once a no cap mode (pure team deathmatch) has been implemented. I bet many all pilots will abandon that capping nonsense.

I'm one of those.

Only ECM spiders running around capping the hell out of each other ;-)

P.S. Was capping not introduced originally so u can end the match without hunting down that lone last light or waiting the whole 15 minutes, although the match was practically already decided?

[CDLord HHGD]

DavidHurricane, on 01 November 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Battleships: to carry aircraft, fight other battleships and provide support

Sorry, had to point this out.... You mean Aircraft Carriers to carry aircraft and Battleships to fight other battleships.....

[990Dreams]

cdlord, on 01 November 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Sorry, had to point this out.... You mean Aircraft Carriers to carry aircraft and Battleships to fight other battleships.....

Haha yeah. And Nuclear Submarines to launch nukes . Forgot that one.

[990Dreams]

cdlord, on 01 November 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Easy, just stay at your base then...... Defend it. Eventually there will be a light there or if everyone stayed to defend, the whole enemy team.

Good idea. Too bad that every time I have seen people defend they have lost. You might as well suggest that we negotiate terms for surrender. It'd be less of a waste of Mechs and time...

[Whatzituyah]

DavidHurricane, on 02 November 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Good idea. Too bad that every time I have seen people defend they have lost. You might as well suggest that we negotiate terms for surrender. It'd be less of a waste of Mechs and time...

I lost from returning to base and trying to defend it aswell and the whole team was trying to defend it and the whole enemy team was trying to take it.

[990Dreams]

Whatzituyah, on 02 November 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

I lost from returning to base and trying to defend it aswell and the whole team was trying to defend it and the whole enemy team was trying to take it.

Returning to base DURING a cap is okay as long as the whole other team isn't there (in which case the whole team needs to return).