123 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

What I'm saying is that you have no right to infer YOUR opinion of "fun" or "wasted time" on to someone else. I'm also pointing out that there are other game mdoes in development to scratch your itch of what a good mode should be.

I'm also pointing out it's not ok to harass another player because you don't like the fact that they went for a win. The fact that none of you can see this says a lot. As nice amd articulate as you're being on the subject you are still advocating harassing another player. Just because it's not a TK, legging, etc. doesn't mean it isn't griefing.

Let me give you an example:

"Hey guys, can you pull off the cap, we've got a real furball goin on and the rest of us would like to finish off the firefight. Or cap it down to the bare minimum and step off to use as a last resort if it looks like we're going to lose the firefight."

"Hey [redacted], get off the cap. I want to shoot guys. You're stupid and ******* lame and I hope someone shoots you in the face. Stop being stupid and capping. Get the **** off!"

Do you see the difference in the two statements? DO you also see how one might actually get you the results you want as oppsoed to a confrontational attitude that tells you to [redacted]?

No matter how you attempt to justify it, it's not ok to harass other people simply because they aren't playing the game the way you want them to.

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 03:49 AM.
language

[Alaskan Nobody]

Sandpit, on 07 November 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

No matter how you attempt to justify it, it's not ok to harass other people simply because they aren't playing the game the way you want them to.

Sad part is, this is the argument on both sides.
I think it is time to call it a day and stop feeding the trolls Sandpit.
They may not be trolls in the usual sense, but as they are unwilling to consider the alternatives, there is not much you can do to sway them.
(to those of you who are considering the alternatives, you are quite clearly exempt. )

[Farix]

Edustaja, on 07 November 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

One of the reasons for the irritation are the four man teams.
With four mechs on the base there is no way that the main force is going to make it back on most maps.
This makes players feel a lot of frustration.

This is one of the reasons I actually support removing the multiplying effect off of base captures in Assault. The capture rate should be the same whether there is one mech or all 12 on the base.

[Darth Futuza]

Silentium, on 24 October 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I don't care for the whining either, but I hope you can understand that cap races just aren't any fun, and are for the most part totally unrewarding.

My question is that the player's fault or PGI's fault? Seems like PGI should just reward capping more ya know? Then everyone is more happy/takes time to defend their base. Or give players who just want to fight a deathmatch mode...

[Alaskan Nobody]

Darth Futuza, on 07 November 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Or give players who just want to fight a deathmatch mode...

Deathmatch is coming - that's part of our frustration with these threads.

[Farix]

Shar Wolf, on 07 November 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Deathmatch is coming - that's part of our frustration with these threads.

Yes, Deathmatch is coming. But it probably won't be the Team Deathmatch they are looking for and it could be months before it does arrive. Hence all the energy into changing Assault from a Capture-the-Flag mode into a Team Deathmatch mode. It is also why they have a vested interest into denying that Assault's setup is based on Capture-the-Flag, even if that fact is plainly obvious to a 5th grader.

Edited by Farix, 07 November 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Sandpit]

Farix, on 07 November 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yes, Deathmatch is coming. But it probably won't be the Team Deathmatch they are looking for and it could be months before it does arrive. Hence all the energy into changing Assault from a Capture-the-Flag mode into a Team Deathmatch mode. It is also why they have a vested interest into denying that Assault's setup is based on Capture-the-Flag, even if that fact is plainly obvious to a 5th grader.

THEN ASK FOR TEAM DEATHMATCH AND STOP ASKING TO CHANGE OTHER GAME MODES TO CONFORM TO YOUR OPINION ON FUN

maybe? Maybe you see the difference in that and asking to change a current game mode????

THAT should be obvious to a first grader

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 07 November 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

What I'm saying is that you have no right to infer YOUR opinion of "fun" or "wasted time" on to someone else. I'm also pointing out that there are other game mdoes in development to scratch your itch of what a good mode should be.

I'm also pointing out it's not ok to harass another player because you don't like the fact that they went for a win. The fact that none of you can see this says a lot. As nice amd articulate as you're being on the subject you are still advocating harassing another player. Just because it's not a TK, legging, etc. doesn't mean it isn't griefing.

Let me give you an example:

"Hey guys, can you pull off the cap, we've got a real furball goin on and the rest of us would like to finish off the firefight. Or cap it down to the bare minimum and step off to use as a last resort if it looks like we're going to lose the firefight."

"Hey [redacted], get off the cap. I want to shoot guys. You're stupid and ******* lame and I hope someone shoots you in the face. Stop being stupid and capping. Get the **** off!"

Do you see the difference in the two statements? DO you also see how one might actually get you the results you want as oppsoed to a confrontational attitude that tells you to [redacted]?

No matter how you attempt to justify it, it's not ok to harass other people simply because they aren't playing the game the way you want them to.

So let me clarify. I don't consider spewing profanity at someone acceptable for any reason. Let me put forward examples of my own.

1."Please don't cap, we haven't even exchanged fire yet" <---- reasonable
2."Please get off cap, there are only two of them left and we've almost got them" <------- reasonable
3."Let's not cap-rush, swing left and we'll hit them when they're on the way to our cap" <----- reasonable

1."Eff that. I hate this map/I don't care, I'm already at cap" <----- common jerk response
2."No. I want the cap XP." <------- common jerk response.
3.*silence as they go cap anyway* <------ common jerk response.

1. "Don't be an *******, we've spent 5 minutes crossing Alpine already. Come flank them and get some fighting XP." <---reasonable
2. "It's 30 seconds of your life and you'll probably get more from assists if you shot at anyone, don't be a *****" <---reasonable
3. "Hey, sunshine, party is this way, you haven't even fired a weapon yet." <--- reasonable

At this point if the guy capping is still being an *** I'm all for flipping them reasonable {Scrap} in chat. While I don't condone TKing or legging I get why people do that. This is someone specifically doing something to irritate other people. They're not capping to win they're capping to grief - their capping has nothing to do with winning or losing, it's just them wanting to feel like they did something significant that impact other people good or ill.

You should be reasonable in chat when talking to people. Polite and respectful. But if one persons 'fun' involves shafting the other 23 people then their 'fun' is no different than someone who has their fun playing their stereo loud enough to be annoying.

Just because cap points exist doesn't mean every use of them is a good use. Same with 3PV, same with anything and everything else. If someone acts like a selfish jerk in a multiplayer game they don't get to act indignant when they get called a selfish jerk.

Social games are social. You play your stereo too loud people get to say something. Act obnoxious in a movie theater and people get to say something. There's a world of difference between cap-rushing and capping because the last enemy spider has hidden and powered down. Capping is the cheap win - it's less of a challenge, which is the draw. If someone doesn't want a challenge why are they playing in a social game? You play multiplayer you're playing with and against other players. You act selfishly they get to call you on it. That's not unreasonable.

I do not consider 'calling someone on being selfish' the same as

Quote

"Hey [redacted] get off the cap. I want to shoot guys. You're stupid and ******* lame and I hope someone shoots you in the face. Stop being stupid and capping. Get the **** off!"

That's being a [redacted] and its own bad behavior. My response to that is normally 'Hey. Don't make me call your mother.'

My main beef is and has always been debunking the 'capping is totally valid all the time no matter what'. It is, in the same way that 3PV peeking is a valid game feature and worth of respect or that playing your radio loud and annoying your neighbors is a cool and legit use of your stereo equipment. It's not. [redacted]

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 03:51 AM.
Language

[Alaskan Nobody]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

1."Please don't cap, we haven't even exchanged fire yet" <---- reasonable

Part capping to distract them and, hopefully, split them up, will rejoin the fight after, unless the lot of you get yourselves killed in which case the capping is that much further along <---- reasonable, no?

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

So let me clarify. I don't consider spewing profanity at someone acceptable for any reason. Let me put forward examples of my own.

1."Please don't cap, we haven't even exchanged fire yet" <---- reasonable
2."Please get off cap, there are only two of them left and we've almost got them" <------- reasonable
3."Let's not cap-rush, swing left and we'll hit them when they're on the way to our cap" <----- reasonable

1."Eff that. I hate this map/I don't care, I'm already at cap" <----- common jerk response
2."No. I want the cap XP." <------- common jerk response.
3.*silence as they go cap anyway* <------ common jerk response.

1. "Don't be an *******, we've spent 5 minutes crossing Alpine already. Come flank them and get some fighting XP." <---reasonable
2. "It's 30 seconds of your life and you'll probably get more from assists if you shot at anyone, don't be a *****" <---reasonable
3. "Hey, sunshine, party is this way, you haven't even fired a weapon yet." <--- reasonable

At this point if the guy capping is still being an *** I'm all for flipping them reasonable {Scrap} in chat. While I don't condone TKing or legging I get why people do that. This is someone specifically doing something to irritate other people. They're not capping to win they're capping to grief - their capping has nothing to do with winning or losing, it's just them wanting to feel like they did something significant that impact other people good or ill.

You should be reasonable in chat when talking to people. Polite and respectful. But if one persons 'fun' involves [redacted] the other 23 people then their 'fun' is no different than someone who has their fun playing their stereo loud enough to be annoying.

Just because cap points exist doesn't mean every use of them is a good use. Same with 3PV, same with anything and everything else. If someone acts like a selfish jerk in a multiplayer game they don't get to act indignant when they get called [redacted].

Social games are social. You play your stereo too loud people get to say something. Act obnoxious in a movie theater and people get to say something. There's a world of difference between cap-rushing and capping because the last enemy spider has hidden and powered down. Capping is the cheap win - it's less of a challenge, which is the draw. If someone doesn't want a challenge why are they playing in a social game? You play multiplayer you're playing with and against other players. You act selfishly they get to call you on it. That's not unreasonable.

I do not consider 'calling someone on being selfish' the same as


That's being a [redacted] and its own bad behavior. My response to that is normally 'Hey. Don't make me call your mother.'

My main beef is and has always been debunking the 'capping is totally valid all the time no matter what'. It is, in the same way that 3PV peeking is a valid game feature and worth of respect or that playing your radio loud and annoying your neighbors is a cool and legit use of your stereo equipment. It's not. [redacted]

Then you report them for griefing if you feel it's poor behavior on their part. That street goes both ways. Your opinion on "fun" doesn't factor into someone being able to use a perfectly legal and legitimate win mechanic to well win.

I literally just played assault on crimson a few minutes ago. a lance of lights tried to quick cap us, 2-3 of our lights circled back and kept them occupied while me and a couple of other big guns turned back as well. We not only stopped the cap, they got caught alone and shredded. We then went on to win the game.
Them making a cap rush split our group and could have resulted in us losing if we hadn't played smart. Not just via cap but if we had overreacted to their cap rush and sent more than we needed, leaving 3-4 to fend off the 8 big mechs pushing from the other side could very easily resulted us in getting split up and picked off by their big mechs.

It's not hard to counter the strategy. It's not hard to use that strategy to split forces and throw entire teams into panic. It's a legitimate and legal tactic.

I'd also like to add in there's a big difference between a little smack talk and just being downright beligerent.

Also, in regards to the stereo analogy, if your neighbor is within the law (IE before night times noise ordinances usually) then they are within their right.

I never said it was "good" I said it's legal and people who do it do not deserve to be harassed because of it.

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 03:53 AM.
quote cleaned up

[MischiefSC]

So here's the thing - I'm not talking about harassment, just smack talk. I get using capping to try and split teams and while I'm not a big fan of it I can see it being useful in some maps and situations.

that's not what I'm talking about or what other people are talking about here. it's the situations I listed above or when your team says 'hey, please stop capping' and you just cap out anyway. that doesn't mean you're cheating or anything, it just means you're a jerk and people get to [redacted]. Like with the stereo analogy and why I used it - it's legal, but that doesn't mean you're anything other than [redacted] for doing it.

So people come to the forums and say 'why do I get yelled at for cap rushing? It's a win condition!' the correct answer is 'because you can win and do it by [redacted], and as such people are legit for [redacted].'

Capping like that robs the other players of XP, cbills and time. You can do it in the game - it's not cheating. Just don't pretend that it's anything except being a selfish **********.

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 03:56 AM.
language

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

So here's the thing - I'm not talking about harassment, just smack talk. I get using capping to try and split teams and while I'm not a big fan of it I can see it being useful in some maps and situations.

that's not what I'm talking about or what other people are talking about here. it's the situations I listed above or when your team says 'hey, please stop capping' and you just cap out anyway. that doesn't mean you're cheating or anything, it just means you're a jerk and people get to [redacted]. Like with the stereo analogy and why I used it - it's legal, but that doesn't mean you're anything other than [redacted] for doing it.

So people come to the forums and say 'why do I get yelled at for cap rushing? It's a win condition!' the correct answer is 'because you can win and do it by [redacted], and as such people are legit for [redacted].'

Capping like that robs the other players of XP, cbills and time. You can do it in the game - it's not cheating. Just don't pretend that it's anything except being a selfish **********.

I can make a counter argument if I really want to that cap rushing like that actually increases their c-bill and exp production long-term due to faster games.

If you spend 7 minutes in a match and I can get a cap win in 2 that means I'm getting in almost 4 games to your 1. See?

It's all a matter of perspective.

Smack Talk = Ok in my opinion

Being [redacted] and performing anythign beyond that = bad in my opinion

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 03:57 AM.
quote cleaned up / language

[MischiefSC]

One again though cap rushing to gain XP by doing the equivalent of joining a match and AFKing is astoundingly selfish.

It's not about 'my fun vs your fun'. You're talking about 'my fun vs 23 other peoples fun'. If you want that go play a single player game, or expect to get ragged on by your own team and occasionally someone with low impulse control TKing you. That's just how it rolls if you're going to play a social game like a jerk.

Like I said in a prior post. It's not that cap-rushing is cheating, it's just being a selfish a-hole. People are selfish a-holes sometimes, that is what it is but calling them on it is totally legit. Complaining that being a selfish a-hole gets you called.... a selfish a-hole, well it's the same thing as 'everyone who participated should get a medal! Every answer is a right answer!' That sort of trash produces inferior results. Societies function best by self-policing. Negative behavior or selfish behavior that punishes the whole for the gratification of the individual needs censured.

[Farix]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

One again though cap rushing to gain XP by doing the equivalent of joining a match and AFKing is astoundingly selfish.

No more selfish than any other tactic.

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

It's not about 'my fun vs your fun'. You're talking about 'my fun vs 23 other peoples fun'.

That is extremely presumptuous of you. All 23 players may not agree with you that it is not fun. In fact, I can guarnetee you that they won't. A few may agree with you, a few won't, and there rest don't really care.

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

That's just how it rolls if you're going to play a social game like a jerk.

Playing to win is never being a jerk. Begin a jerk comes through communications.

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Like I said in a prior post. It's not that cap-rushing is cheating, it's just being a selfish a-hole.

No more selfish than those who complain about capping because THEY didn't get their C-bills/XP/Fun from the pew pewing.

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

People are selfish a-holes sometimes, that is what it is but calling them on it is totally legit. Complaining that being a selfish a-hole gets you called.... a selfish a-hole,

The selfish a-holes in this scenario is the ones complaining about capping.

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

well it's the same thing as 'everyone who participated should get a medal! Every answer is a right answer!' That sort of trash produces inferior results. Societies function best by self-policing. Negative behavior or selfish behavior that punishes the whole for the gratification of the individual needs censured.

Dude, what you doing is complaining that your flag got captured in a Capture-the-Flag match.

[MischiefSC]

Farix, on 07 November 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

No more selfish than any other tactic.


That is extremely presumptuous of you. All 23 players may not agree with you that it is not fun. In fact, I can guarnetee you that they won't. A few may agree with you, a few won't, and there rest don't really care.


Playing to win is never being a jerk. Begin a jerk comes through communications.


No more selfish than those who complain about capping because THEY didn't get their C-bills/XP/Fun from the pew pewing.


The selfish a-holes in this scenario is the ones complaining about capping.


Dude, what you doing is complaining that your flag got captured in a Capture-the-Flag match.

No more selfish than any other tactic.....

So I already covered all of this. I realize that you don't get it. That's okay, If the half dozen posts I made don't make sense to you then I guess you're just going to keep being confused about why most of both teams call you a jerk or worse when you cap-rush. If you genuinely feel that wasd to cap is no different in terms of skill than winning a fight or that the payout for everyone on both teams is not measurably different from an 11 to 12 battle vs a 0 to 0 cap rush helping you understand otherwise is more involved than a forum conversation is capable of delivering.

Edited by MischiefSC, 07 November 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

So I already covered all of this. I realize that you don't get it.

We "get" it, we just do not agree - is that so hard to understand?

Edit: all those people arguing with you?
There is your proof that "everyone" does not agree with you - "get" THAT?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 07 November 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Shar Wolf, on 07 November 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

We "get" it, we just do not agree - is that so hard to understand?

Edit: all those people arguing with you?
There is your proof that "everyone" does not agree with you - "get" THAT?

Three is all those people? Count number of posters in this thread then count opinions on each side. Then count threads on topic and people in topics.

Not statistically relevant but attempting to say that everyone thinks cap rushing is comparable to winning a fight is pretty disingenuous. I get that you don't agree. Maybe you feel getting an award for participating is the same as an Olympic Gold Medal. That doesn't make them equal.

Cap-rushing is selfish. It gets a tiny award for a couple of people instead of a bigger award for pretty much everyone. It's math and it's not hard. That you don't care already points out where you sit in the equation and thus why you will get trash-talked for capping both on the forums and in matches. I get that you don't like getting trash talked for it, the point is that since you don't care how you play affects the people you play with why in the world should they care how you think or feel?

The debate has certainly been blown out of proportion. You enjoy the 'thank you for participating, you're a WINNER!' sort of victory. Okay, great. Not that tough to launch another match. I absolutely do reserve the right to comment on it though and absolutely point out that wasd isn't the same as a hard fought battle and absolutely does NOT deserve respect. Play your stereo loud, get told to turn it down or called a jerk. Cap-rush and get trash-talked by your team and the other team. Both are legal, both are cheap. It's not hard to understand.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Three is all those people? Count number of posters in this thread then count opinions on each side. Then count threads on topic and people in topics.

Not statistically relevant but attempting to say that everyone thinks cap rushing is comparable to winning a fight is pretty disingenuous. I get that you don't agree. Maybe you feel getting an award for participating is the same as an Olympic Gold Medal. That doesn't make them equal.

Cap-rushing is selfish. It gets a tiny award for a couple of people instead of a bigger award for pretty much everyone. It's math and it's not hard. That you don't care already points out where you sit in the equation and thus why you will get trash-talked for capping both on the forums and in matches. I get that you don't like getting trash talked for it, the point is that since you don't care how you play affects the people you play with why in the world should they care how you think or feel?

The debate has certainly been blown out of proportion. You enjoy the 'thank you for participating, you're a WINNER!' sort of victory. Okay, great. Not that tough to launch another match. I absolutely do reserve the right to comment on it though and absolutely point out that wasd isn't the same as a hard fought battle and absolutely does NOT deserve respect. Play your stereo loud, get told to turn it down or called a jerk. Cap-rush and get trash-talked by your team and the other team. Both are legal, both are cheap. It's not hard to understand.

Maybe but you can look at ANY of the actual polls on this subject and I don't think there's a single one where those arguing against cap have a majority in the votes

[Alaskan Nobody]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Three is all those people? Count number of posters in this thread then count opinions on each side. Then count threads on topic and people in topics.

As opposed to the one who is still arguing your point?
Have a nice life buddy - I am done talking to you.

Edit: tired >.<

Sandpit, on 07 November 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Maybe but you can look at ANY of the actual polls on this subject and I don't think there's a single one where those arguing against cap have a majority in the votes

Not ALL capping is the evil bogey the anti-cappers claim: unfortunately for you (not Sandpit - MischiefSC) - you get to be lumped in with them on account of beating the dead horse I call thick headedness.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 07 November 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 07 November 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Maybe but you can look at ANY of the actual polls on this subject and I don't think there's a single one where those arguing against cap have a majority in the votes

So, again, there's a world of difference between cap-rushing and the validity of capping. 2 powered down spiders? Go cap. Touch on cap to draw enemy off? Go cap. Your whole team virtually wiped out and the enemy steam-rolling your way? Go cap.

The point of the argument is that there's a difference between capping as part of a larger over-all strategy to enrich the battlefield of the game and capping to grief or because, well, you just like capping. It's not even that grey a margin. Is your team asking you to stop capping? Is your team winning without capping? Has there even been any combat? Did you wasd with 3 friends and cap accelerators avoiding all combat for a quick cap-rush win?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be capping. I'm saying that cap-rushing or capping to be a seflish ********** is legit in the game but still being a selfish ********** and deserves trash talking. That's all. It's like peeking in 3PV. It's totally legit - it's an in game feature and is promoted being used to periscope by the developers. It's 100% a working, legitimate, viable part of the game. Doesn't make it positive or worth trash-talking the use of.

I think you and I are not really that far off Sandpit and at this point quibbling details. I think I've made my point and will bow out.

Shar Wolf, on 07 November 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

As opposed to the one who is still arguing your point?
Have a nice life buddy - I am done talking to you.

Okay, well, great? You pick one comment out of the thread that.... you know, better to let it go with have a nice life. I think I summed up my response to you already. Shine on you crazy diamond.