131 replies to this topic

[MechFrog1]

I'd up your dose.

[Joseph Mallan]

mint frog, on 28 October 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

I'd up your dose.

Already taking enough to kill most sport stars, actors or Political analysts!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 October 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

Though its not here yet, I know of a Charger that mounts 4 Large Lasers but has a smaller engine.

Would the current BattleMaster not count? The BLR-1G has 3 per Torso section...

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 28 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Would the current BattleMaster not count? The BLR-1G has 3 per Torso section...

Yes. Yes it does.

[C E Dwyer]

Heat scale was put in to stop game breaking 6xPPC and 6ERLL boats being one shot kill mechs which is why 2 was the number picked.

while I'm not a fan of the way they have gone with balancing as it favors ac2 ac5 builds its a damn sight better than what it was and I just shake my head at the people still lobying for those builds to come back..


only way thay can change things is to compltely rebuild the game its a done deal. your wasting time

[mike29tw]

Cathy, on 28 October 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Heat scale was put in to stop game breaking 6xPPC and 6ERLL boats being one shot kill mechs which is why 2 was the number picked.

while I'm not a fan of the way they have gone with balancing as it favors ac2 ac5 builds its a damn sight better than what it was and I just shake my head at the people still lobying for those builds to come back..


only way thay can change things is to compltely rebuild the game its a done deal. your wasting time

When was the last time 6ERLL reign terror among the field?

And AFAIK the only thing 6PPC stalker has ever broken is its own heat meter.

[Cest7]

4x Large lasers = 40dmg
2x AC/20 = 40dmg

I complained about the LPL stack right when this abysmal ghost heat system was implemented.

Edited by Cest7, 28 October 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[FupDup]

Cest7, on 28 October 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

4x Large lasers = 40dmg
2x AC/20 = 40dmg

I complained about the LPL stack right when this abysmal ghost heat system was implemented.

Actually, 4 LL only does 4 x 9 = 36 damage. It's also spread over a one-second beam duration (compared to the pinpoint power of the AC/20).

[The Justicar]

Ghost heat, among game designers, has become one of the industry's legendary follies. Its right up there with Duke Nukem multiplayer.

Oh, wait...

[Khobai]

Halloween is coming up. We need more ghost heat.

[Satan n stuff]

Khobai, on 28 October 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Halloween is coming up. We need more ghost heat.

Maybe they'll let us kill the ghosts to exorcise our mechs.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Khobai, on 28 October 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Halloween is coming up. We need more ghost heat.

***** n stuff, on 29 October 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Maybe they'll let us kill the ghosts to exorcise our mechs.

[Conan Librarian]

Ghost Heat is a trash concept, especially seeing how it's not explained in-game at all. It makes new player's miserable game experience even worse.


So yeah, I want Ghost Heat gone. It's a bad concept and it can be replaced by other one, more clear and just as effective.


If pinpoint accuracy is the problem then they should fix the source of problem (convergence). Instead, they picked random stat (heat) and messed it up. Now, experienced players know about Ghost Heat and bypass it (either by building differently or by group firing control). Those who play for fun and like certain type of weapons are put at disadvantage (unless they happen to like ballistics because those are barely affected, for some reason). New players? They will use stock loadout on their brand new AWS-8Q and even after upgrading to double heatsinks they will just plain suck.


It's also funny how playerbase is more concerned about new player's experience than PGI.

[l33tworks]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

9 ML, even without Ghost heat suffers from bad heat!

So then why add ghost heat on to of it if it is bad enough on its own? Why set ghost heat to 6?

[Joseph Mallan]

l33tworks, on 29 October 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

So then why add ghost heat on to of it if it is bad enough on its own? Why set ghost heat to 6?

Heck why set Ghost heat at +24 on 2 AC20 and every other nerf at a single digit? This is a Mechanic that just needs to

Also Galaxy... Awesome Pict!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 October 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[El Bandito]

Should have been three from the start.

Actually, ghost heat should not have been implemented in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 October 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Conan Librarian]

aniviron, on 25 October 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Don't forget all of the Locusts, the JR7-F, COM-1B and 2D, BJ1-X, and QKD-5G and 5K.

Face it guy KhanCipher is quoting, there are tons of mechs that have fairly limited hardpoint options, because they're boats in canon. Even in TT, basing your mech around one type of weapon system is an effective and desirable strategy. There needs to be a place for this kind of mech in MWO; the way to balance this is not to force every single mech and player to carry a mixed loadout, but rather to balance the weapon systems in such a way that not doing so is a major risk.

This is very doable, and is even done very well in MWO, but only for one weapon system- the LRM. Right now, taking an all-LRM loadout can net you some decent rewards if done right, and before The Great Nerfing, was a very viable tactic. But anyone who carries nothing but LRMs will tell you that they are incredibly vulnerable, always just one ambush away from dying without being able to return fire, or hoping that the enemy's Ravens aren't playing it smart with their teammates. The LRM was an incredibly effective weapon system when boated, but taking no backup weapons to increase your ability to do your main job meant taking big risks. They're so close to getting it right with the PPC, but the three nerfs it got were too many at once. If they'd kept the projectile speed at 2000m/s, it would be a devastating mid-long range weapon that was absolutely boned the moment its cover was blown and left overheating and exposed.

That's what needs to happen to every other kind of weapon. Good gameplay balance isn't the devs saying, "You take a mixed loadout or else you get harsh arbitrary penalties for playing optimally!" Rather, good gameplay balance is the player saying to himself, "Woah, I'd better be careful taking nothing but [weapon x], if I don't play well, the enemy will be able to kill me easily. Maybe I should devote some tonnage to making sure that doesn't happen."

Quoting to not let this great post fade away.


If boating is bad then who the hell put that AWS-8Q in game? Or Jagermechs? CPLT-A1? Other boats? Not PGI themselves?

And if boating is not a problem then what is? Convergence? Wouldn't it be logical to fix the convergence problem itself instead of messing with heat?


Who cares if Ghost Heat does the job in balancing if it ruins the game experience? You know, the fun. The thing that makes us actually play the game. I'm pretty sure there are better systems out there (some even suggested on these forums by players) that do exactly the same job and *don't* ruin the fun, don't ruin certain builds while making other more than viable - they just adress the problem directly and in more clear way.

Edited by Groovy4life, 29 October 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Quote

"Who cares if Ghost Heat does the job in balancing if it ruins the game experience? You know, the fun."

Anyone who knows the basic premise that GH was meant to prevent "cares". How in the hell does something that adds balance to the game deter "fun" wtf?

Your ranting man and without any logic. If you consider "unbalanced" game play as "fun" then no one, least of all PGI, can help you.

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 October 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[Bront]

Groovy4life, on 29 October 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Who cares if Ghost Heat does the job in balancing if it ruins the game experience? You know, the fun.

The PPC Meta of months ago where it wasn't safe to step, well, just about anywhere, was stopped by ghost heat somewhat, and more so by the PPC/Gauss nerf.

Stangely, 2xAC20 mechs still exist and work mostly fine with Ghost heat, as do LRM boats and even SRM boats. LLs and PPCs it hurts a lot. Ghost heat doesn't do a lot other than ruin builds that benefit from convergence. Were SRM boats really that scary when they're ineffective at 271m and spread damage even when they fire in range? Would PPCs be an issue convergence wasn't instant on where you point always, allowing those 3 PPC shots to spread around the mech even if you did hit it?

At the same time, is ghost heat really a solution when it most limits the weapons already limited the most by heat? (energy weapons and the AC20/2)? Heat is a big reason for the current ballistic meta already. How is PGI going to fix that? Nerf the fire rates of smaller balistics (ad .25 for the AC2, .5 for the AC5/UAC5, (probably not a bad idea)? There's still the heat issue that they're superior than energy weapons for by a lot.

[Victor Morson]

Cathy, on 28 October 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Heat scale was put in to stop game breaking 6xPPC and 6ERLL boats being one shot kill mechs which is why 2 was the number picked.

while I'm not a fan of the way they have gone with balancing as it favors ac2 ac5 builds its a damn sight better than what it was and I just shake my head at the people still lobying for those builds to come back..

only way thay can change things is to compltely rebuild the game its a done deal. your wasting time

But here's the thing Cathy, Ghost Heat did not kill those builds. Sure people overreacted and started running horrible frakenbuilds, but the PPC remained the absolute dominate weapon right up until they... fixed the PPC! Go figure!

Even if you took Ghost Heat out right now, you simply could not run a 6 PPC Stalker. It wouldn't work. Even the 4 PPC Stalker (which was far, far better than the 6) would run terribly right now and would in no way be a good 'mech.. because again, the guns are fixed.

Ghost heat results in things like:

3x LRM10 1x LRM20 = 4x LRM20 Ghost Heat for 50 missiles
2x LRM20 2x LRM5 = 0 Ghost Heat for 50 missiles

Etc, etc. Also notably Large Lasers are outright trash when used in groups of two, it NEEDS to be at the very least 3, and ideally 4 if they do keep this stupid system.

But I absolutely promise you Ghost Heat didn't fix anything, because the Maths were terribly, terribly thought out and are the worst example of game design I've ever seen in my life. It's goal was to reduce overall alpha which it didn't do, and in fact, it didn't even dent the meta in any major way (except ruining previously fun non-OP builds)... correcting the guns did that.

It's a really important distinction and when people see more gun diversity and thank Ghost Heat (instead of the brief period of actually editing the weapons XML file and correcting stuff within it), it's just unfortunate.