306 replies to this topic

[Bacl]

Wow i need to get one of these thing because it is the third match in a row i face a team composed exclusivly with poptrats ( sorry last game there was a locust...). So can you tell me how am i suppose to deal with that in one of my Stalkers? I either get the ac20 Blackjack or the chessy PPC ac5/ gauss Highlander. Ok i undertsnad the mechanic and i have nothing against really except in this ( pardon me my emotions) ******* game there is no drawback for doing so! They barely damage their leggs, pin point accuracy ( of course) and dont tell me to flank them, on the second game i had a team that decided to flank and there was 4 Atlases ina row, basically a freaking columb of steel, they all got jumped and cored/ headshot 1 after the other.

"We couldnt keep the shaking screen because people were getting montion sickness" MY ***! If you suffer from motion sickness dont ******* use it, your allergic to peanuts and you gonna eat a cup of them?

This is getting like MW4 competitive play, PGI are just getting better and better a ******* things up!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. It is out of the system now and i m cool (more or less).

P.P.S. PGI, cone of fire, it works well, shhhh!

[Roland]

Taemien, on 26 October 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I played in both ladder and planetary leagues with the DHG, We utterly annihilated everything that poptarted.

Hill sniping was more of a problem in those days, where people used 3rd person to glitch their shots through a hill. That was done way more in competitive play than poptarting.

What planetary leagues did you play in? I honestly do not remember you at all in any of the ones that I played in, which I believe were the largest planetary leagues in Mechwarrior4.

In MW4, jumpsniping was actually a fairly dominant tactic, due primarily to the fact that the netcode in that game made it very difficult to land shots against jumping mechs with most of the weapons in the game.

Additionally, there were numerous mechs who actually had bugged hitboxes, like the Ryoken, whose mech desynched from the actual hit boxes during the jumping animation, making it literally impossible to hit certain sections of the mech while it was jumping.

In reality, my own unit tended to not leverage jumpsniping to as large a degree as most units who played mechwarrior 4, preferring other tactics, but your suggestion that it wasn't effective in the game is plainly (and provably) false. The fundamental game mechanics of mechwarrior 4 made jumpsniping effective, simply by virtue of the tactic exploiting flaws in the game's engine.

[KhanHeir]

Roland, on 26 October 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

What planetary leagues did you play in? I honestly do not remember you at all in any of the ones that I played in, which I believe were the largest planetary leagues in Mechwarrior4.

In MW4, jumpsniping was actually a fairly dominant tactic, due primarily to the fact that the netcode in that game made it very difficult to land shots against jumping mechs with most of the weapons in the game.

Additionally, there were numerous mechs who actually had bugged hitboxes, like the Ryoken, whose mech desynched from the actual hit boxes during the jumping animation, making it literally impossible to hit certain sections of the mech while it was jumping.

In reality, my own unit tended to not leverage jumpsniping to as large a degree as most units who played mechwarrior 4, preferring other tactics, but your suggestion that it wasn't effective in the game is plainly (and provably) false. The fundamental game mechanics of mechwarrior 4 made jumpsniping effective, simply by virtue of the tactic exploiting flaws in the game's engine.

[Xyuni]

I find it ridiculous that people are actually complaining about Poptarts....
If you want to shoot at something that don't duck and hide... please go play at the TESTING GROUND!

[Bacl]

Vodrin Thales, on 25 October 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I have to disagree on both counts. I find that most players I come in contact with are relatively happy with the game now, they just think it could be better.

On your second point I think a cone of fire solution is terrible. I want my weapons to hit where I am them with no RNG input. There is another way of doing it though. Lasers are not a problem and AC2's are not a problem because their damage can easily be spread around. Make larger ballistics burst weapons (instead of one shell for full damage) and make PPC's spread their damage a bit and you have largely solved the problem while still allowing players to benefit from having good aim.

The absence of cone of fire is exactly why people tend to go the full burst i alpha your face off way, i can shoot as many weapons as i want at you cockpit or CT fraction of seconds being out of cover and going back in. Cone of fire shouldnt affacet lasers at all since they do dmaage over time and they are a beam it would balance them with the other weapons. Cone would solve many of the problems right now ( poptarts fest, high alpha pin point accuracy, the fast movers able to always target the same spot over and over again), it would ehlp balance the lasers vs ballistic issues and it would improve the overall survivabilty of all players.

I know i will burn on the public plaza since "its a change" and a lot of players wont like that but hey i lost all my lance mates because the game is going down the drain...

[Oni Ralas]

I... I haven't seen a (successful) poptart in quite some time.

[Sandpit]

Oni Ralas, on 27 October 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

I... I haven't seen a (successful) poptart in quite some time.

All it takes is one person to get owned by something and suddenly it's "broken" and needs to be "removed". Feel free to take a look at the thread in my signature if you don't believe me. It's also usually an agenda for some who feel they have a "good idea" to further their call for changes to a specific system, weapon, etc.

[Xyuni]

Sandpit, on 27 October 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

All it takes is one person to get owned by something and suddenly it's "broken" and needs to be "removed". Feel free to take a look at the thread in my signature if you don't believe me. It's also usually an agenda for some who feel they have a "good idea" to further their call for changes to a specific system, weapon, etc.

Yes, agreed, people who can't take any losses should remain in the Testing Ground. They win forever there and mechs don't pop out here and there!

[MischiefSC]

I see a lot of 'L2P' sort of responses. The point is the limited availability of JJs means that the associated 'popping' is available to specific chassis, making them optimal and others sub-optimal. It's literally why Victors/Highlanders dominate the high-end competitive 12mans. Not nearly so big an issue in pug games unless you've got a 4man who's really good at it but in terms of a meta? Using JJs to pop out of cover, shoot and drop back faster and more effectively than any ridge-humper can is a significant advantage. Much like ECM it's a balance issue because it provides a cheap, light effective buff to your fighting skills with no drawbacks and it's chassis restricted.

Trying to strawman about 'it's just people getting mad at losing' comes across as either ignorant or entitled. It's not like anyone and everyone can't buy a 733C, put 2PPCs and 2xUAC5s on it along with some JJs and hopscotch/poptart along with the rest. The point is that it's not a benefit to the games overall meta and when CW comes along it's going to be more of a problem and more pronounced as teams who want to compete are going to be required to focus on what is the most successful build rather than what's fun to play.

After weight restrictions drop and CW is rolling there is going to be an optimal weight breakdown that's going to be poptart heavy that's going to be the 'optimal team build'. Without poptarting the Victor and Highlander are still going to be great platforms, just not hands-down better than an Atlas or Stalker. The maneuverability advantage that JJs offer would still be there. The point though is that as the game gets more competitive and the optimal designs get better and better refined you want to keep as many chassis on the table for as long as possible.

Hence, JJ shake for 0.7 to 1.2 seconds after jet release. Better for everyone. If you want to peek and shoot do it the same way everyone else does.

[Xyuni]

Victors and Highlanders have a HUGE torso that's so easy to hit the moment they pop up on radar... i shoot them down all the time they do that. If JJ shake remain after jet release, how is that even considered fair when they can't hit you due to jumpjet shake and you can shoot back at them because you have no shake?

[MischiefSC]

Xyuni, on 27 October 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Victors and Highlanders have a HUGE torso that's so easy to hit the moment they pop up on radar... i shoot them down all the time they do that. If JJ shake remain after jet release, how is that even considered fair when they can't hit you due to jumpjet shake and you can shoot back at them because you have no shake?

Because you hit the JJs right to the crest the hill point, then release and fire, leaving you briefly exposed. Or, when rushing in with your buddies, you move at an angle behind cover, JJ up to clear cover while moving perpendicular to your target causing you to JJ past sideways. You release JJ, crosshairs stabilize instantly, you take the shot and drop behind cover. You're moving in an arc and are far harder to lead as a target. I do it and watch other people do it all the time.

Again. It's not that removing the poptart option removes the ability to peek around cover. Every mech without JJs does it all the time. It's shifting JJs from being a combat enhancement to being a mobility enhancement. Still very useful - as useful as a 0.5 to 2.0 ton piece of equipment should be - just not a telling combat enhancement.

[Xyuni]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Because you hit the JJs right to the crest the hill point, then release and fire, leaving you briefly exposed. Or, when rushing in with your buddies, you move at an angle behind cover, JJ up to clear cover while moving perpendicular to your target causing you to JJ past sideways. You release JJ, crosshairs stabilize instantly, you take the shot and drop behind cover. You're moving in an arc and are far harder to lead as a target. I do it and watch other people do it all the time.

Again. It's not that removing the poptart option removes the ability to peek around cover. Every mech without JJs does it all the time. It's shifting JJs from being a combat enhancement to being a mobility enhancement. Still very useful - as useful as a 0.5 to 2.0 ton piece of equipment should be - just not a telling combat enhancement.

I don't agree with JJs being a mobility enhancement. I dread the moment where an Atlas stops in the middle of the Terra Therma Bridge and blocks everyone's way to fire at the enemy. JJ's provide very interesting fighting formation for the teams that are able to utilize it. Removing that, it'll just feel like World of Tanks?

Again, especially for Highlanders and Victors, their JJs lift is very slow, and to be able to fire their guns they must expose their entire upper torso due to their lowly mounted arms, in that 1-2 seconds lift, it is very vulnerable to enemy fire and it makes no sense that it cannot return fire for doing that.

Edited by Xyuni, 27 October 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Xyuni, on 27 October 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

The pr

I don't agree with JJs being a mobility enhancement. I dread the moment where an Atlas stops in the middle of the Terra Therma Bridge and blocks everyone's way to fire at the enemy. JJ's provide very interesting fighting formation for the teams that are able to utilize it. Removing that, it'll just feel like World of Tanks?

Again, especially for Highlanders and Victors, their JJs lift is very slow, and to be able to fire their guns they must expose their entire upper torso due to their lowly mounted arms, in that 1-2 seconds lift, it is very vulnerable to enemy fire and it makes no sense that it cannot return fire for doing that.

So if the Atlas stops, JJ over him and move into cover. As an Atlas pilot please for the love of god don't just trap the poor ****** there eating fire with nowhere to go

A Victor or Highlander is no more or less vulnerable to fire while JJing, generally less, than they would stepping sideways out of cover. JJs just let them do it from angles and while moving in an arc that regular mechs can't. Hopscotching, jumping and firing while advancing, lets the mech stay on target for shooting (not having to swing back and forth) while adding another axis of movement and increasing the odds of a miss or at least damage point spread for the hopscotching mech. It also lets the hopscotching mech shoot enemy mechs largely behind cover.

Again, JJs provide a significant combat advantage for 0.5 to 2.0 tonnage investment. In pugs it's not that big a deal. In 12mans, especially with weight restrictions, it's going to considerably narrow viable mechs. With CW incoming the impact of that is increasingly more significant. It marginalizes the Orion, Stalker, Atlas, Centurion, Hunchie, etc. It's not that poptarting is an unbeatable advantage - it's that it's a chassis-exclusive advantage. ECM already craps that up enough.

[Xyuni]

So if you removed all that advantage? why not just have everyone play in the same mech then? I don't see a point in having so many different chassis.

All you want is equality, it doesn't exist unless everyone is using the same mech/equipments.

[MischiefSC]

Xyuni, on 27 October 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

So if you removed all that advantage? why not just have everyone play in the same mech then? I don't see a point in having so many different chassis.

All you want is equality, it doesn't exist unless everyone is using the same mech/equipments.

False dichotomy. You're attempting to equate not giving specific builds a significant advantage to 'everything being the same'. Obviously that's not the case. A Centurion and a Hunchback are both 50 tons but very different in performance. Battlemaster and Stalker being another example.

It's not about equality at all. It's about game balance. In the same way that there's a balance between lasers and ACs - one has no ammo but higher heat, instant accuracy but DOT (except for PPCs), etc.

JJs are not 'balanced'. They, much like ECM, are chassis specific buffs that you can get for 0.5 to 2.0 tons that provide a significant combat advantage. Nobody pilots of JJ-enabled chassis without JJs even though they could juse that extra ton or two for more DHS or ammo. They give up DHS or ammo or armor of another ML to get a *significant* combat advantage.

Again, not that they're terrible. ECM is worse in context of balance being off for relative advantage but looking ahead? Why not just fix this now before CW hits? This is a balance issue like the low ERPPC heat where everyone used ERPPCs and Gauss though, again, IMO not as bad. Still needs fixed though or CW is going to get stale relatively quickly. Without JJs sniper builds are a bit more vulnerable and you're far less likely to see the camped JJ-sniper matches that can bog down 12mans.

So let me turn this around - why do you feel that the Orion, Stalker, Battlemaster Battlemaster, Awesome and Atlas need to be gimped compared to the Victor and Highlander? Why do you feel those two need a significant advantage over the other Assaults?

[Entail]

@OP

i don't understand you are using a ballistics boat and complaining about poptarting?

It's very difficult to aim in a poptarting mech (as opposed to the jagermech).
Please put yourself in someone else's shoes.

It would also help if you didn't stay still in one place the whole match,
died, and went straight to the forums complaining about poptarts
when it wasn't even the poptart that killed you!

[xMEPHISTOx]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Again. It's not that removing the poptart option removes the ability to peek around cover.

Hence, JJ shake for 0.7 to 1.2 seconds after jet release. Better for everyone. If you want to peek and shoot do it the same way everyone else does.

Well you say its not removing poptarting but that is exactly what your 'suggestion' would result in. That is fine if that is what you want...all are entitled to their opinions, so have at it.
We will all just play one style...FUN.
Jump sniping has been around since long ago MW, we even had a lesser form of it in BT:Solaris so long ago.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 27 October 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Xyuni]

I look at each mech as "Choices" , some say that Awesome is bad, and yet i still see some players piloting them. Some say that Locusts is bad, and yet some players are piloting them.

Some say the spiders is overpowered, yet i find that nowadays there's less spiders in a match compared to before, and they occasionally die when they become careless.

Eventually, part of the fun of this game is to figure out the best chassis that suits you. I've seen matches where Orions and BattleMasters did really well and also matches that did really poor.

Part of the fun of this game is customization, and i don't find that Jump Jets enabled Mech have considerable advantage over the others.

What PGI is trying to create here is Role Warfare.... For instance:

1. Atlas have the most Armor, it is a Tank
2. Orion is one of the "Smallest" heavy mech i've seen.
3. BattleMasters and Stalkers may not have Jumpjets, but they have plenty of hardpoints that can be quite brutal when encountered face to face.
4. Awesome is.... a pretty useless mech I'd agree, but I'd think it's only natural to see some of the earlier released mech become less efficient as we see more mechs released by the DEVs.

All i'm saying is, I never expected all mechs to be equally good in this game. It will become more apparent in later stages of the game when Clan Equipment or Clan Mech comes out.

In this current META, Jumpjets enabled mech seems to have an advantage, but the lack of hardpoints or reliance on XL engines also makes it a very vulnerable glass cannon on the field, and hence, the need for some Tanking role Mechs to absorb the damage while these JJs enabled mech provides tactical coverage for the bigger/slow assault mechs.

[MischiefSC]

xMEPHISTOx, on 27 October 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Well you say its not removing poptarting but that is exactly what your 'suggestion' would result in. That is fine if that is what you want...all are entitled to their opinions, so have at it.
We will all just play one style...FUN.
Jump sniping has been around since long ago MW, we even had a lesser form of it in BT:Solaris so long ago.

No, I said it removes the ability to jump-snipe, NOT peek around cover. Every other mech in the game still manages to peek around corners without JJs. They are not somehow required to stand in the open waiting to get shot.

Yes, and it was considered one of the crappiest things about the whole multiplayer MW experience. I get that it was fun for you - many people loved 11 heat ERPPCs. That doesn't mean it was a good thing.

Xyuni, on 27 October 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I look at each mech as "Choices" , some say that Awesome is bad, and yet i still see some players piloting them. Some say that Locusts is bad, and yet some players are piloting them.

Some say the spiders is overpowered, yet i find that nowadays there's less spiders in a match compared to before, and they occasionally die when they become careless.

Eventually, part of the fun of this game is to figure out the best chassis that suits you. I've seen matches where Orions and BattleMasters did really well and also matches that did really poor.

Part of the fun of this game is customization, and i don't find that Jump Jets enabled Mech have considerable advantage over the others.

What PGI is trying to create here is Role Warfare.... For instance:

1. Atlas have the most Armor, it is a Tank
2. Orion is one of the "Smallest" heavy mech i've seen.
3. BattleMasters and Stalkers may not have Jumpjets, but they have plenty of hardpoints that can be quite brutal when encountered face to face.
4. Awesome is.... a pretty useless mech I'd agree, but I'd think it's only natural to see some of the earlier released mech become less efficient as we see more mechs released by the DEVs.

All i'm saying is, I never expected all mechs to be equally good in this game. It will become more apparent in later stages of the game when Clan Equipment or Clan Mech comes out.

In this current META, Jumpjets enabled mech seems to have an advantage, but the lack of hardpoints or reliance on XL engines also makes it a very vulnerable glass cannon on the field, and hence, the need for some Tanking role Mechs to absorb the damage while these JJs enabled mech provides tactical coverage for the bigger/slow assault mechs.

JJ mechs have hardpoints as good or better than any non-JJ build. They have nothing to do with XL engines. JJs use up about 1 ton to use effectively, maybe 2 if you're in an assault or you want to jump very high. If you're having to sacrifice hardpoints and run strictly in an XL for the sake of 1 or 2 tons then you've got other issues than poptarting.

12mans are driven by JJ mechs and hopscotching/poptarting. That's not unreasonable, it provides a significant tactical advantage.

So at this point your argument literally is that there should only be a couple of truly competitive builds when CW starts up and that's... a good thing? Because that's the argument here. 'We did it in prior MW games' and 'not all mechs are equal' is saying just that. You're leaving out 'then we'd all just be brawling' and 'why have JJs in game at all', all of which are again strawman arguments.

The reality is that JJs provide a significant *combat*, not just mobility, advantage. This advantage STACKS, does not replace but STACKS WITH, existing weapon builds and other combat meta. It costs the mech in question about 1 ton and 1 crit. The result is a superior build to non-JJ mechs in mediums, heavies and assaults. It's a balance issue and has always been a balance issue in every MW game. The result has always been and will always be a quickly stale competitive environment. You either enjoy poptart sniping or you avoid the competitive circuit. The idea that this is a good thing is not a good logical basis for keeping it.

[Bacl]

Oni Ralas, on 27 October 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

I... I haven't seen a (successful) poptart in quite some time.

Man want to exchange Elo's? I m not sure where i m standing on the ladder but i get on youtube and i play "popcorn" tune right before getting in a match, since the last couple of days the big majority of mechs are poptarts.