306 replies to this topic

[Alondo]

As of this post I have 4090 matches under my belt. I truly haven't seen that many poptarts in this game. And so what if someone poptarts, i find them as easy to hit usually as those Mechwarriors that stay planted on the ground. For myself this is a non issue.
But hey, I guess your experience has been different.

[Krivvan]

Alondo, on 27 October 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

As of this post I have 4090 matches under my belt. I truly haven't seen that many poptarts in this game. And so what if someone poptarts, i find them as easy to hit usually as those Mechwarriors that stay planted on the ground. For myself this is a non issue.
But hey, I guess your experience has been different.

Poptarts are the dominant build in 12-man and tournament matches at the moment.

[Alondo]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Poptarts are the dominant build in 12-man and tournament matches at the moment.

Ok gotcha.
I solo PUG pretty much exclusively so I don't have the 12-man experience.
But if I was in a 12-man and Poptarting is that effective then I would surely use that tactic. If you nerf that tactic, I am willing to bet the 12-mans will use something else to the general exclusion of all other tactics and again people will complain. Effective is as effective does.
Game balance finds itself.

[YueFei]

Alondo, on 27 October 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Ok gotcha.
I solo PUG pretty much exclusively so I don't have the 12-man experience.
But if I was in a 12-man and Poptarting is that effective then I would surely use that tactic. If you nerf that tactic, I am willing to bet the 12-mans will use something else to the general exclusion of all other tactics and again people will complain. Effective is as effective does.
Game balance finds itself.

No. Game balance does not revolve around a singular tactic. That's stale and boring. True game balance revolves around having multiple tactics that are situationally stronger or weaker against other tactics.

Imagine a game of Rock/Paper/Scissors where Rock beats Paper and Rock also beats Scissors. Everyone will play Rock every single time, all day every day. To simply say "oh one day they'll nerf Rock and everyone will flock to Scissors so it's all good" is the wrong mentality.

[Ghogiel]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Poptarts are the dominant build in 12-man and tournament matches at the moment.

So liek stop actually playing the game to get your info bro. I read on the forums that poptarting is ineffective and only works on noobs, that makes you wrong and stuff.

[Sandpit]

Xyuni, on 27 October 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

So if you removed all that advantage? why not just have everyone play in the same mech then? I don't see a point in having so many different chassis.

All you want is equality, it doesn't exist unless everyone is using the same mech/equipments.

this, this isn't a game where you have a few classes of mechs and they're all carbon copies of the same with a few variations. This isn't your typical scouts class is faster, support heavier weapons, etc. each chassis has it's own pros and cons. Just because some chassis have access to JJ's doesn't make anything unbalanced, broken, skewed, or any other adjective you'd like to use. JJ mechs sacrifice weight, crit spots, and armor for maneuverability. Just because someone can still shoot while jumping isn't an "unfair advantage"

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Again, JJs provide a significant combat advantage for 0.5 to 2.0 tonnage investment. In pugs it's not that big a deal. In 12mans, especially with weight restrictions, it's going to considerably narrow viable mechs. With CW incoming the impact of that is increasingly more significant. It marginalizes the Orion, Stalker, Atlas, Centurion, Hunchie, etc. It's not that poptarting is an unbeatable advantage - it's that it's a chassis-exclusive advantage. ECM already craps that up enough.

I think we really need to wait until CW is out and there is more data with 12-man drops. First, PGI stated at the Launch Party that "every match will count" towards determining faction wins/losses in CW. What does that mean? Perhaps that every PUG drop will count towards the victory conditions as long as your faction is being represented, and not just the 12-man drops? Even if that is not the case, the increase in the number of 12-mans will likely see those more comfortable with lasers rather than PPCs or ballistics. Sure, they may get rolled by the really good 12-mans, but ELO could be applied so that the competitive crowd remains largely separate from the rest, and/or they will more likely be running up against similar 12-mans that have similar builds and tactics.

Right now, in my ELO range, I hardly see any poptarts, and the strategies used in PUGs make using a poptart build difficult, especially with LRMs still raining down hard, your teammates scattering to the wind and little communication to fend off getting swarmed by light mechs or a good flanking maneuver. If you're seeing too many poptarts...congratulations, your ELO is higher than most.

[Xyuni]

Sandpit, on 27 October 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

this, this isn't a game where you have a few classes of mechs and they're all carbon copies of the same with a few variations. This isn't your typical scouts class is faster, support heavier weapons, etc. each chassis has it's own pros and cons. Just because some chassis have access to JJ's doesn't make anything unbalanced, broken, skewed, or any other adjective you'd like to use. JJ mechs sacrifice weight, crit spots, and armor for maneuverability. Just because someone can still shoot while jumping isn't an "unfair advantage"

Exactly, this is just like saying that Jagermech need to be nerfed because majority of mechs out there have their arms lowly mounted and because of this, alot of users favor jagermech, and just because the stats show that many players favor this mech, it deserves a nerf?

it really isn't much different to the topic now:

" The high elo's game consist of purely 12 mans poptart now , the JJs provide significant advantage that other mechs don't get it....."

See a pattern there?

[Drasari]

Poptart online, brawler online, AC-Online, AC-40 online, Assault online, Dakka online, PPC-online, Guass-online, Spiders-Onine, LRM-Online, SRM-Online, Cap-Warrior, Brawl-Warrior, Poptart-Warrior, U/AC-Warrior....


Above are just some of the regular list of threads that cycle through these forums.

My point? Perspective is subjective. Experience is different per ELO bracket. META cycles.

[akpavker]

Drasari, on 27 October 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Poptart online, brawler online, AC-Online, AC-40 online, Assault online, Dakka online, PPC-online, Guass-online, Spiders-Onine, LRM-Online, SRM-Online, Cap-Warrior, Brawl-Warrior, Poptart-Warrior, U/AC-Warrior....


Above are just some of the regular list of threads that cycle through these forums.

My point? Perspective is subjective. Experience is different per ELO bracket. META cycles.

lol how this game will look if the noobs keep complaining..........

[Joseph Mallan]

Bagheera, on 25 October 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Every time someone says this, Gawd kills a Jenner. Heavy-handed fixes are not the answer, and pop-tarting is a non-problem.

Or should Victor not be able to use his AC20 in mid-air because a few players can't fathom that standing in one spot and trying to beat the pop-tart at their own game is a loosing proposition.

No, it's just that it's the universes rule of thumb. Only around 5 Pilots in the universe have fired weapons while Jumping. Why? Cause it is the physics of the universe we are playing in. So unless you are one of the top 10 players in the game, Pop Tarting should not be available to us! Its that simple. We are sitting in a Comfy chair, not experiencing the G-forces of trowing a multi ton robot into the air then going to Zero Gee in a free fall. Sure its a breeze firing in a comfy chair, but change that o actually trying to perform it strapped to Death Drop carnival ride. Then tell me its easy.

[OneEyed Jack]

akpavker, on 27 October 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

lol how this game will look if the noobs keep complaining..........

Wait, wait, wait....

Are you saying that isn't what the game looks like now?

I need to go check my install.....

[Krivvan]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

No, it's just that it's the universes rule of thumb. Only around 5 Pilots in the universe have fired weapons while Jumping. Why? Cause it is the physics of the universe we are playing in. So unless you are one of the top 10 players in the game, Pop Tarting should not be available to us! Its that simple. We are sitting in a Comfy chair, not experiencing the G-forces of trowing a multi ton robot into the air then going to Zero Gee in a free fall. Sure its a breeze firing in a comfy chair, but change that o actually trying to perform it strapped to Death Drop carnival ride. Then tell me its easy.

I did it while wearing an Oculus...is that close enough? =P

[Joseph Mallan]

Krivvan, on 28 October 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I did it while wearing an Oculus...is that close enough? =P

Closer than Sitting in a chair but Nope.

[Kunae]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Poptarts are the dominant build in 12-man and tournament matches at the moment.

Alondo, on 27 October 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Ok gotcha.
I solo PUG pretty much exclusively so I don't have the 12-man experience.
But if I was in a 12-man and Poptarting is that effective then I would surely use that tactic. If you nerf that tactic, I am willing to bet the 12-mans will use something else to the general exclusion of all other tactics and again people will complain. Effective is as effective does.
Game balance finds itself.

It isn't only 12-mans. At higher Elo's you start to see 4-mans dropping with 4 poptarts or a combination of 'tarts and ridge-snipers. It's effective as long as the other side buys into the pop-tart's meta... if they don't, it can go very badly for the 'tarters.

[Joseph Mallan]

I didn't see it my 4 hours of play Saturday night. I did see a few matches with heavy down pour of Missiles, but that is not to be expected, nor frowned on! Missile support is a standard in the BattleTech Universe an deserves a respected place in combat here as well.

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I didn't see it my 4 hours of play Saturday night. I did see a few matches with heavy down pour of Missiles, but that is not to be expected, nor frowned on! Missile support is a standard in the BattleTech Universe an deserves a respected place in combat here as well.

The real problem with LRMs, in MWO vs TT, is that they're treated as artillery here, where they were a direct-fire weapon in TT and all other MW games. Unfortunately, even being treated as artillery here, they aren't given an area-suppression capability, such as ground-targeting.

[Joseph Mallan]

But using them as an artillery weapon is more appropriate for their military application I think.

[Kunae]

If they're going to be classed as an artillery weapon, then they need to be given the tools to be used as such. The implementation currently is organically messy, and hacked-together.

[espritjaeger]

There was a guy poptarting last night in a PUG match... he jumped once and missed a shot... then a second time and hit somebody... and on the third, everyone shot him at the same time and cored him mid-air.