306 replies to this topic

[Sir Wulfrick]

Vodrin Thales, on 28 October 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

The peak of the pop tart meta was more than 8 weeks ago.

Could easily have been, I won't disagree at all. Not an exact time frame by any means on my part.

[dario03]

Kunae, on 28 October 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

No, because that has negative ramifications beyond those you call "pop-tarts".

Like I said early in the thread they could just make it so that certain weapons couldn't be fired while jumping and right after. Letting stuff like medium lasers fire while jumping but not ppc wouldn't hurt your typical Jenner but it would reduce pop tarting. Though like I said earlier I'm not sure poptart nerfing is really needed now though it seems like a lot of them working together could be better than any other set up working together so I wouldn't mind if they did.

Edited by dario03, 28 October 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Sir Wulfrick, on 28 October 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Could easily have been, I won't disagree at all. Not an exact time frame by any means on my part.

I think most would agree that pop tarting was significantly reduced after JJ shake was introduced, and although I don't remember exactly when that happened, it was more than 8 weeks ago. Ghost heat, PPC nerf, and Gauss charge all served to further restrict it. Now it's more of a specialized niche and pop tarting is only really a problem when the opposing team has far more fire support type mechs than you do.

Fighting a group of stalkers, battlemasters, and jaegermechs can be every bit as bad as hill humping can achieve pretty much the same results. It's all about having enough volume of fire to force the opposing team to stay in cover and being able to selectively pop out to hit them.

[Tastian]

I see many teams use strategy: base rush, turtle, snipers, poptarts, light swarm, missiles/spotters, brawl push, defend, divide and conquer, steiner lance, etc.... All of these if coordinated correctly are great strategies and could also incite tears to the opponent (and myself). But I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with any of these strategies.

On the other hand if you want to point fingers at bad mechanics lets look at the real problems:
1) bad hit detection (i'm looking at you spider)
2) instant pinpoint convergence
3) mismatched ELO matchmaking (its always a shame to drop in a group with a lance of trials)
4) mismatched weight matchmaking (group of mostly mediums getting steamrolled by mostly assaults)
5) premades vs pugs (group with two lances of premades vs group of all pugs)
6) no ingame chat (see above)

I'm sure there are other *real* problems I've failed to name.

[HBizzle]

Pop-tarting is alive and well. Especially among competitive 12 man company's. My unit's 12 man drops are more oriented on fun and getting folks used to it at the moment, and we always catch Blackstone Knights, or some other pop tart aficionados. I can still pop tart pretty accurately with my HGN-733C or my Shadow Hawks even with JJ shake. The shake is just a display characteristic, if you keep the reticle relatively centered on the target you will still land a hit. Same from shaking when hit by ballistics or missiles.

[Vodrin Thales]

HBizzle, on 28 October 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Pop-tarting is alive and well. Especially among competitive 12 man company's. My unit's 12 man drops are more oriented on fun and getting folks used to it at the moment, and we always catch Blackstone Knights, or some other pop tart aficionados. I can still pop tart pretty accurately with my HGN-733C or my Shadow Hawks even with JJ shake. The shake is just a display characteristic, if you keep the reticle relatively centered on the target you will still land a hit. Same from shaking when hit by ballistics or missiles.

Not entirely true. It randomizes your aim until you release the jets. Everyone who is good at this is shooting after releasing the JJ's.

[Kunae]

dario03, on 28 October 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Like I said early in the thread they could just make it so that certain weapons couldn't be fired while jumping and right after. Letting stuff like medium lasers fire while jumping but not ppc wouldn't hurt your typical Jenner but it would reduce pop tarting. Though like I said earlier I'm not sure poptart nerfing is really needed now though it seems like a lot of them working together could be better than any other set up working together so I wouldn't mind if they did.

Sorry, I must have missed where you said that. I'd have no issue with that sort of restriction, but that's personal bias against people who try to run with PPC's on lights... Never understood the thinking there, and I am happy to run across them when I am in a light, as they're easy meat.

[HBizzle]

Vodrin Thales, on 28 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Not entirely true. It randomizes your aim until you release the jets. Everyone who is good at this is shooting after releasing the JJ's.

Not what I have found. I can consistently land hits while JJing up if I need to, obviously I try and wait until after I release them, but have been able to do it while JJing.

[Vodrin Thales]

HBizzle, on 28 October 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Not what I have found. I can consistently land hits while JJing up if I need to, obviously I try and wait until after I release them, but have been able to do it while JJing.

Then you just got lucky enough to fire at a time when the RNG effect still allowed you to hit. It does alter your aim while you fire the jump jets.

[Navy Sixes]

Oh, man, I've watched this thread grow and grow. I only PUG on the weekends, and even then only once everything else is done. I PUG exclusively, so I don't care what you 'leets' are doing in the 12v12. Pop away!

My problem is that it gets all over these forums, then the new-guys (the one's that bother to read the forums, that is... you know, the dumb**ses ) get a hold of it and say, "Poptarting is the way to play!"

Then I get stuck dropping with a bunch of characters who

1) really don't know what they're doing (which is OK, we were all there once. The real problem is...)

2) think they know exactly what they're doing 'cause they read it on the forums.

Just like all the Spiders you see standing around in the open (and dying dying dying) because someone posted "SDR is 'OP god mode'" and all the newcomers think they're going to get some kind of edge starting out in one.

If this keeps up, I predict that by Friday night, the PUGs will be packed with jumpy Highlanders. no one will be able to make any kind of push because all the assaults will be "prowling the backfield..." this will be made even worse because none of them will be able to hit a damn thing more than 200m away.

You guys are ruining my weekend. Stop it!

-- this means take this all light-heartedly... I'm half-joking.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 28 October 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Kunae]

Tycho von Gagern, on 28 October 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

-- this means take this all light-heartedly... I'm half-joking.

It's unfortunate, but you're right.

[Kin3ticX]

The OP has valid concerns. Here is my simple take on it.

-Mechwariors with JJ's are playing an FPS+Z shooter. (First Person Shooter + Jetpacks)

-Mechwarriors with NO JJ's are playing a FPS shooter inside an FPS+Z game.

Therefore, Players/groups who take full advantage(teamwork, positioning, etc) of their Z axis over players who are glued to the ground have a clear advantage in most situations.

Two solutions: and the least likely to happen.....

Give every mech jump jet capabilities

-or-

Add a harsh accuracy modifier while in any kind of flight

Edited by Kin3ticX, 28 October 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[akpavker]

Ok so say we decide to get rid of poptarts like so many people in this thread seem to think is a good idea. This leaves a problem of the ecosystem being upset…..

This is just an example: The noobs and poptart haters get there way and poptarts are extinct. We are left with mechs like stalkers that are tough mechs that rock hump and peek over hills needing only to expose 2 inches of their whole body to get a shot off (being that their arm mounted weapons sit close to the very top of the mech) then they move back in to cover with minimal damage. So the poptart that can jump up and snip these hard to kill stalkers and push them back are all gone leaving the stalker and any other mech that can peek and shoot the top mech in the game. Next thing we see is noobs and stalker haters on the forums complaining about rock humping stalkers that killed them. And the cycle goes on. If it’s not poptarts it will be stalkers then it will move to lrm’s then assaults having to much armor or lights dominating the battle field ect ect.

In the end after we have gone through every mech/weapon that has ever become popular or killed a noob and then proceed to nerf them what are we left with….



maby somthing like this

just because a pack noobs dont like poptarts doesnt mean every one hates them. personaly i like jumpsniping and if i kill some nub that wants to stand still on top of a big hill its not my fault that his skill and judgment are poor.

akpavker, on 27 August 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

its very simple if you stand in the open or on top of a big hill and not move you are going to get shot.....a lot and then die. try playing a little smarter e.g....don't stand in 1 spot like a tool, don't charge mechs front on, take cover as much as possible only revealing your self when a good opportunity to strike presents its self. if your pined down try flanking or send a decoy to the enemy base and try split their team up.

from personal experience %50 of the people in this game deserve to die because they are dumb and do stupid things. the only drawback to this is they come to the forums and call for nerfs and if it keeps on going we are going to end up with "mech warrior pillow fight online"

Edited by akpavker, 28 October 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Poptart team vs non-poptart team.



It is only 1 screenshot but I wanted to show how FPSZ mechs are amazingly superior to anything without JJs.

Its not about liking or hating poptarts, its about game balance. The matchmaker frankly does not cut it in this situation.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 28 October 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[n r g]

I will jump jet/pop tart until the day I die.

If they full removed pop tarting from Mech Warrior, I wouldn't even play the game anymore, I mean, how boring and easy would it be to just run big mechs into each other, ramming one another and firing pointless weapons? No skill.

Poptarting adds a strategic element to the game.

Shame that they nerfed it, however, most of us can still control it and will continue to do so.

[Marmon Rzohr]

There will be no progress in the meta until epic JJ accuracy is resolved. Not saying poptarts are ruining MWO. Poptarting is fun. However if it's not adjusted it will remain the single best strategy for heavy and (mostly) assault mechs forever. That kinda makes the metagame and the game itself feel a bit stale.

JJs should be used for mobility and not double as MWO's cover system, IMHO.

But like I said, it's not so much about poptarting being "wrong" or something, more about a competitive game having a clear cut optimal strategy that has very little counterplay. Imagine if football games had only one viable strategy and whoever executes it better wins. Who'd find that engaging for long ?

(a bit of hyperbolisation, poptarting is only dominant when it comes to the heavy mechs. If you watched the launch tournament, for example, the only exciting bits were the fights between the light lances, and an unplanned brawl near one of the cap points)

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 29 October 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[Mainhunter]

How about adding heat when using JJ?

[wintersborn]

Kunae, on 28 October 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

No, because that has negative ramifications beyond those you call "pop-tarts".

Like what?

I tried this stupid looking tactic and it is still easy, you just shoot at the beginning of the decent that has NO shake. With Ballistic speed and almost no heat it is obvious why it is done.

You want to shoot things while in the air add aircraft to the game. I mean come on 90 tons of 80's robot jumping up and down is stupid.

[Ngamok]

wintersborn, on 29 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Like what?

I tried this stupid looking tactic and it is still easy, you just shoot at the beginning of the decent that has NO shake. With Ballistic speed and almost no heat it is obvious why it is done.

You want to shoot things while in the air add aircraft to the game. I mean come on 90 tons of 80's robot jumping up and down is stupid.

The reticle should shake while in the air at all times, even on the way down with no JJ going.

[Kunae]

wintersborn, on 29 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Like what?

I tried this stupid looking tactic and it is still easy, you just shoot at the beginning of the decent that has NO shake. With Ballistic speed and almost no heat it is obvious why it is done.

You want to shoot things while in the air add aircraft to the game. I mean come on 90 tons of 80's robot jumping up and down is stupid.

Nerfing jump-jets hurts Jenners and Spiders much more than it prevents "pop-tarting".

Ngamok, on 29 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

The reticle should shake while in the air at all times, even on the way down with no JJ going.

The reticule shouldn't shake at all, up or down. The thrust behavior on JJ's for mechs over 55t is all that needs to be adjusted.