306 replies to this topic

[Whatzituyah]

What about the mech mortar its cannon and its based on what infantry used for centuries why not solve the problem with poptarts with some over the hill exploding weapons that don't have to lock on to work so if you know they are there you can try to get them out.

[TostitoBandito]

Pop-tarting needs to be removed from the game completely. Jump jets should be a tool for moving and gathering intel, as they were intended to be in tabletop. Accurate fire should be impossible while jetting or airborne.

Want proof of how damaging pop-tarting is? Look at the top 12-man teams. ALL of them exploit pop-tarts and JJ mechs as much as possible. Play against these teams and, apart from their lights, you will see HGN-733C's, CTF-3D's, and the occasional Victor or Shadowhawk loaded up with PPC's and ballistics hopping all over the place. This shouldn't be the only valid strategy for competitive play. Unfortanately, right now it is.

Now, PGI is releasing a module which will make it even easier to aim and acquire targets while jumping. This obviously isn't a huge deal for the top teams who don't really need any extra help, but it does lower the barrier to entry and you will see even more people running pop-tart teams. I expect it to overflow more into the PUG queue as well. Hopefully once the generally playerbase starts complaining about it, PGI might do something to address it.

Edited by TostitoBandito, 30 October 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Sandpit, on 30 October 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

this is still going? Shoot back and find cover. It's not rocket science (although I suppose JJ's would technically be rocket science?)

You are able to shoot hem just as well as they can shoot you. You can see them just as long as they can see you. You actually have a better shot than they do because of JJ shake on the way up now. Shoot them before they shoot you, move, never stand still, find cover, and advance under cover if you're short range.

Some people will find absolutely anything to blame their losses on other than themselves, skill, and tctics.

Let's just do a short review shall we?

Teamwork and premades are "op" lets severely limit their ability to play the game and have fun with some friends

(insert weapon name here) is "op" let's make huge nerfs to this weapon making it near useless in some cases.

poptarting is "op" let's implement JJ shake to discourage its use

This has been going on since CB. This game isn't supposed to be "fair". Those with higher skill levels are going to do better just like any other game out there. If you can't compete don't expect others to make it easier for you. Practice, take advice, and watch what other players do. I don't get crushed by a specific tactic because I use teamwork, tactics, and strategy. I am not an elite pilot with uber "skillz" I'm a casual player with mediocre abilities and yet I do just fine against these tactics.

Stop blaming everything BUT your own personal abilities and start learning how to be better. Stop expecting everyone else to cater to your individual skill level. Stop expecting every little nuance, strategy, and tactic in the game to be toned down so that you can be competitive. In other words, stop looking for an easy mode.

It is ridiculous that EVERY cycle we have a new boogeyman. I can't win and have fun because of (insert whatever "op" tactic, weapon, mech, etc. here) is "op" and I can't figure out how to counter it. Some people are simply going to be better than you are. Some people are going to know how to use a specific tactic, mech, etc. better than you do. Some people are just flat out going to have more time to practice and get better than you.

Instead of asking PGI to change entire game mechanics, how about more players man up and shoot back.

You are dodging the entire issue. This game/community has embraced FPS+Z because of the high learning curve and high reward. This is good. However, it corners us into a very short list of the now affective/optimized mechs which is not good imo. People who want to have fun driving something else deal with a significant headwind playing an FPS game inside of a FPS+Z dominated game.

Some claim you can easily compensate in non-optimum mechs but I believe that is a large exaggeration. If it was the case, in 12 mans, the top teams would be driving large #'s non Jumpjet mechs to counter 733Cs, VTRs, and 3Ds.

Steel Jaguar, for example, drives 8 HGN733Cs and 4 Jenners at the 860 tonnage.

[wintersborn]

Kunae, on 29 October 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Nerfing jump-jets hurts Jenners and Spiders much more than it prevents "pop-tarting".


The reticule shouldn't shake at all, up or down. The thrust behavior on JJ's for mechs over 55t is all that needs to be adjusted.

How would it hurt any mech more than another if you can not shoot while in the air? Just make it so that the firing mechanism goes offline during take off and during decent due to a heat or some other reason.

In my ECM ERPPC Spider I get shake on the way up but none on the decent. I don't know if it is different in bigger mechs but it still does not change the fact that it should not be in game. It reminds me of a shooter where you could do a jump, shoot and prone that was all the rage with top players.

Sorry its just stupid to see 90 ton walking robots hopping up and down.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Jumptarting is the only way my BJ1 survives more than 10 seconds vs a heavy+ in AlphaWarriorOnline. You watch them fire, count the seconds, jump as you know they are about to fire again and watch them miss or hit your legs while you blast them in the face.

[Sandpit]

Kin3ticX, on 30 October 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

You are dodging the entire issue. This game/community has embraced FPS+Z because of the high learning curve and high reward. This is good. However, it corners us into a very short list of the now affective/optimized mechs which is not good imo. People who want to have fun driving something else deal with a significant headwind playing an FPS game inside of a FPS+Z dominated game.

Some claim you can easily compensate in non-optimum mechs but I believe that is a large exaggeration. If it was the case, in 12 mans, the top teams would be driving large #'s non Jumpjet mechs to counter 733Cs, VTRs, and 3Ds.

Steel Jaguar, for example, drives 8 HGN733Cs and 4 Jenners at the 860 tonnage.

I'm not dodging any points. Everyone calling for the "removal" is. It's not hard to counter. Not stepping out from behind cover is one way. Air strikes and arty strikes is another. Using scouts to spot for LRM mechs that can fire without leaving cover is another. Setting up a feint to keep them in place while the main force flanks is another. Do you see what I'm getting at here? For those that are claiming TT JJ's were not designed for this, I'd also like to point out TT JJs were MUCH more maneuverable than MWO. You could turn, increase height, make tight spins and moves to obtain favorable position. It's not even a comparison

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Poptarting.....again.....omg....what to do.....

I was actually waiting for LRM rage again before Poptarts.

[Vodrin Thales]

Kin3ticX, on 30 October 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Steel Jaguar, for example, drives 8 HGN733Cs and 4 Jenners at the 860 tonnage.

While this is true, the 733C's they take are not optimized for pop tarting. They are used because they are mobile, can get over obstacles, and can put down a high volume of direct fire when enemy heavies come into view. There are other Highlanders that make as good or better pop tarts. Therefore the issue is not the dominance of FPS+Z, but pinpoint FPS.

[TostitoBandito]

Vodrin Thales, on 30 October 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

While this is true, the 733C's they take are not optimized for pop tarting. They are used because they are mobile, can get over obstacles, and can put down a high volume of direct fire when enemy heavies come into view. There are other Highlanders that make as good or better pop tarts. Therefore the issue is not the dominance of FPS+Z, but pinpoint FPS.

They are pop-tarts. The 733C is the optimal HGN chassis to do it in because you can put 2 PPC and 2 UAC5 all close together on the same side of the mech. They also usually run STD engines, so they aren't exactly what I would call mobile.

It's simple. Take away the ability to fire while jumping or airborne and these builds will become much more diverse and interesting. You could actually take a chassis which doesn't have jump jets and be competitive.

Edited by TostitoBandito, 30 October 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Asyres]

TostitoBandito, on 30 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

It's simple. Take away the ability to fire while jumping or airborne and these builds will become much more diverse and interesting. You could actually take a chassis which doesn't have jump jets and be competitive.

The ability to transverse terrain and jump-turn would STILL make jump jets preferable -- and disabling firing in the air would significantly hamper lights... which hardly need nerfing at the moment.

[Dace x]

There's an obvious solution (beyond the obvious stuff already discussed) - physics. JJing mechs that get hit by "x" firepower suffer an effect relative to their weight. From being forcefully turned, pushed back and falling over to all of the above.

Ok, yeah, PGI have already botched simple collisions and there's no sign of them coming back, so I'm not holding hope for this one.

[Vodrin Thales]

TostitoBandito, on 30 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

They are pop-tarts. The 733C is the optimal HGN chassis to do it in because you can put 2 PPC and 2 UAC5 all close together on the same side of the mech. They also usually run STD engines, so they aren't exactly what I would call mobile.

It's simple. Take away the ability to fire while jumping or airborne and these builds will become much more diverse and interesting. You could actually take a chassis which doesn't have jump jets and be competitive.

Take away the ability to jump fire and the 733C is still the king assault mech. The same assets that make it ok for jump sniping, make it even more superior for general fire support. To get more diverse builds you need more balance between pinpoint weapons and lasers/missiles. Nerfing jump sniping accomplishes very little in this case.

If jump sniping were the real OP thing, the Jaguars would run 733C's with Cataphract 3D's in there mid tonnage drop decks, but what you see are Highlanders with Illya's. It's the weapons that determine the power of the setup, not jump jets.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 30 October 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

"Nerfing jump sniping does very little"? You're kidding, right? Look, I know the Templars don't compete in tournaments (generally), but you guys do compete in the 12-man realm, and many of your teams are festooned with jump snipers, just the same as any other team in the higher-end ELO brackets. Heck, we even use them ourselves, and we use them out of necessity.

If one does organized 12-mans of any kind, you know that anywhere between at least 1/3rd to 3/4's of a given team is going to be pop-tarts. That's an incredibly consistent statistic, and it errs toward the side of 3/4's whenever possible - namely whenever there aren't any tonnage restrictions. I will also mention that I haven't seen SJR use Ilya's since the u/AC5 nerf.

Every seriously competitive team, whenever possible, crams as many jump-jetting pop-tarts onto their team as is humanly possible. It really is that prevalent, and you guys know that as well as we do.

[Vodrin Thales]

Arrachtas, on 30 October 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

"Nerfing jump sniping does very little"? You're kidding, right? Look, I know the Templars don't compete in tournaments (generally), but you guys do compete in the 12-man realm, and many of your teams are festooned with jump snipers, just the same as any other team in the higher-end ELO brackets. Heck, we even use them ourselves, and we use them out of necessity.

If one does organized 12-mans of any kind, you know that anywhere between at least 1/3rd to 3/4's of a given team is going to be pop-tarts. That's an incredibly consistent statistic, and it errs toward the side of 3/4's whenever possible - namely whenever there aren't any tonnage restrictions. I will also mention that I haven't seen SJR use Ilya's since the u/AC5 nerf.

Every seriously competitive team, whenever possible, crams as many jump-jetting pop-tarts onto their team as is humanly possible. It really is that prevalent, and you guys know that as well as we do.

My point is this. Nerf jump sniping and our teams will simply switch to Misery stalkers with Ac20 +PPC for hill humping, and will continue to use 733C's and will corner peak instead of jump sniping. The exposure to enemy fire with jump sniping is currently about the same or worse as opposed to peaking over and around hills/corners with appropriate mechs. Watch vids of the steel jags playing with 733C's. They don't jump snipe all that much. They mostly corner peak, and create situations where they can group push against inferior numbers and shred the enemy heavies using volume fire from UAC5's.

I just don't think that eliminating firing while jumping will have anywhere near the positive effect on gameplay that adding the reticle shake did, and I would like to see PGI expend their limited programming resources on activities that will have a more profound positive effect on game play. Reducing the effectiveness gap between pinpoint damage weapons and spread weapons like SRM's and lasers would be far more helpful, and could even make jump sniping much less effective if done correctly.

The most reasonable jump nerf to me is having jump jets generate more heat the heavier the jump jet is, and large jump jets would generate significantly more heat. Of course this would make jump brawling less effective, and no one is complaining about that.

[Chronojam]

Keep in mind that for months changes have been made to create a situation where jumpsniping is more attractive; the new movement mechanics, the ghost heat, etc. Brawling has become less effective, jumpsnipers have been given easier-to-hit targets, and we've seen the reduction in efficiency of counter-fire by way of ER Larges and Gauss due to the heat and charge-up respectively.

This is not new, although it's not getting better. Momentarily there was a shake implemented that cut down on jumpsniping but this was VERY quickly reversed.

Edited by Chronojam, 30 October 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Chronojam, on 30 October 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Keep in mind that for months changes have been made to create a situation where jumpsniping is more attractive; the new movement mechanics, the ghost heat, etc. Brawling has become less effective, jumpsnipers have been given easier-to-hit targets, and we've seen the reduction in efficiency of counter-fire by way of ER Larges and Gauss due to the heat and charge-up respectively.

This is not new, although it's not getting better. Momentarily there was a shake implemented that cut down on jumpsniping but this was VERY quickly reversed.

The shake did not bother most accomplished jump snipers, and ghost heat nerfed snipers in general more than brawlers. Only dual AC20 builds took a big hit from ghost heat which did much more to nerf PPC and LL boats. Gauss was always a more effective pop tart weapon than it was a counter. Based on your comments I wonder if you were even playing during the peak of the pop tart meta. We are just seeing a bit more of it again as average marksman become more comfortable with the mechanic again. With regards to top players I have been seeing slightly less pop tarting since the gauss nerf and since ghost heat went in. At least in my limited exposure going against top teams.

[Color Blotch]

Kin3ticX, on 28 October 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Poptart team vs non-poptart team.



It is only 1 screenshot but I wanted to show how FPSZ mechs are amazingly superior to anything without JJs.

Its not about liking or hating poptarts, its about game balance. The matchmaker frankly does not cut it in this situation.

The last time I happened to drop with seven 733C Highlanders on my team I had a pretty hard match. It was really tough trying to tag somebody for assists and some damage because everything on the enemy side was dying so quickly.

[Chronojam]

Vodrin Thales, on 30 October 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

The shake did not bother most accomplished jump snipers, and ghost heat nerfed snipers in general more than brawlers. Only dual AC20 builds took a big hit from ghost heat which did much more to nerf PPC and LL boats. Gauss was always a more effective pop tart weapon than it was a counter. Based on your comments I wonder if you were even playing during the peak of the pop tart meta. We are just seeing a bit more of it again as average marksman become more comfortable with the mechanic again. With regards to top players I have been seeing slightly less pop tarting since the gauss nerf and since ghost heat went in. At least in my limited exposure going against top teams.

Considering that 2PPC1Gauss and rarely 3PPC1Gauss were the go-to jumpsniping build, ghost heat did nothing to them. Mechanically, the 3PPC builds did suffer somewhat but generally had enough cooldown opportunity to not matter much. I'm not sure why you think ghost heat was a big problem for them; jumpsnipers using large lasers were quite uncommon and that's what were hit rather unfairly hard in contrast to PPCs.

PPCs were always the superior sniping-style weapon as you could peek around/over an edge with or without jets to blast somebody before hiding, while the lasers required time-on-target.

Despite the time-on-target issue, we'd been using 4LL or 2LL/2ERLL builds with Gauss as a pretty effective counter to jumpsnipers, whose biggest advantages are shaky netcode and small window of opportunity for counter-fire. The gauss gave you good punch, the lasers let you "rake" somebody both on his way up and down. You weren't going to be scoring headshots but you minimized damage loss due to pilot/netcode error. It also helped guide friendly players' aim towards the sudden target, although that's a fringe benefit.

Of course, now four large lasers generate a lot more heat, and you cannot charge and fire a gauss in time to adequately react to the jumpsniper.

[Oni Ralas]

poptarts exist due to the elimination of their natural predator - the LRM. It's all about eco system balance.

[Kin3ticX]

Oni Ralas, on 30 October 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

poptarts exist due to the elimination of their natural predator - the LRM. It's all about eco system balance.

I dont know if I agree that LRMs weak or strong make a great sniper counter but I would like to try it. I did hear a rumor they would get a buff but it never happened. Since direct fire is more reliable I have sort of considered LRMs tonnage that might be completely wasted toward the win effort.