121 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

While that may sound cool on paper, and may be cool for the first couple of games, I'd think that'd be horrible from a gameplay perspective.

I'd rather have something like Assault than that really.

In honesty when I gave money to the game, I was hoping for something like planetside, but with mechs. You know, an MMO they were touting. This is MW5 without the campaign.

[Krivvan]

3rdworld, on 25 October 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

In honesty when I gave money to the game, I was hoping for something like planetside, but with mechs. You know, an MMO they were touting. This is MW5 without the campaign.

I'm happy that it wasn't like Planetside. Planetside suffers from being cool initially, but the eventual dawning realization at how little depth there is and how meaningless it all ends up feeling. Yeah, it's cool how it's all one giant map...but it's all repeated structures and boring open hilly terrain.

Did they actually tout an MMO? Are you sure it wasn't people who insisted on calling it an MMO because it was supposed to have a metagame?

Edited by Krivvan, 25 October 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Would 600+ damage, 3 kills, 4 assists be a favor? Seriously if you are having success in a build an it isn't the norm for tournament players, its the pilots success that matters not coaches wants.

It is categorically worse in every way to other mechs at similar tonnage...Playing exactly the same, in a different mech with same loadout (weapon wise, you get more armour, can get jjs too if you want which are huge advantage etc etc)
, you could do double that..

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Everybody shouldnt have a combat role. The game needs other roles besides combat.

In a game. Based solely around combat.....


Bases can only take you so far, and unless you want Alpine to be the "small" map size and to disregard every other one they have made scouting is never going to be a necessary role.

[DocBach]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Would 600+ damage, 3 kills, 4 assists be a favor? Seriously if you are having success in a build an it isn't the norm for tournament players, its the pilots success that matters not coaches wants.

There's a huge difference in the game style of a pug stomp and a 12 man. Something that lets you corral and kill people in Champion trials isn't going to do the same job against 12 guys all running builds that work together that play together and communicate with each other.

[Joseph Mallan]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

But you're still handicapping your team. You are a part of your team. You could've done far better. You are handicapping it if you play a bad build. You can still carry the team. You can still cause your team to win. But that doesn't mean you didn't handicap it.

And my team has already said cool so who are you to say if I handicap our team? You don't know if I could do better. to date I do far better in My builds that cookie cutter builds.

Back in Closed Beta I ran an Archer build on my Atlas. I had a PoS Laptop (12 FpS average) My K was just under 3.0 I was an asset in that build. Once I was given a better Rig, I abandoned that for my Gauss/PPC an 3 SRM build. Landed in the top 100 (of 3500) in that first Tournament. Even with an XL engine.

No sir. If you are mind that I should run a build that I suck in cause some bean counter says so... No thanks. I know guys who clean house in a Commando. Give them a Cataphract and they blows chunks! I make the Mech the Mech doesn't make me.

[Krivvan]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

And my team has already said cool so who are you to say if I handicap our team? You don't know if I could do better. to date I do far better in My builds that cookie cutter builds.

No sir. If you are mind that I should run a build that I suck in cause some bean counter says so... No thanks. I know guys who clean house in a Commando. Give them a Cataphract and they blows chunks! I make the Mech the Mech doesn't make me.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't run builds that you want to run. Or that teams should force you to run a build you don't want to run. Only that it still means you're handicapping the team. A team that says "bring whatever you want" can't really have a game plan for a match.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

And my team has already said cool so who are you to say if I handicap our team? You don't know if I could do better. to date I do far better in My builds that cookie cutter builds.

Back in Closed Beta I ran an Archer build on my Atlas. I had a PoS Laptop (12 FpS average) My K was just under 3.0 I was an asset in that build. Once I was given a better Rig, I abandoned that for my Gauss/PPC an 3 SRM build. Landed in the top 100 (of 3500) in that first Tournament. Even with an XL engine.

No sir. If you are mind that I should run a build that I suck in cause some bean counter says so... No thanks. I know guys who clean house in a Commando. Give them a Cataphract and they blows chunks! I make the Mech the Mech doesn't make me.

Right and you do not care about winning...but how many merc units that have spent 180 MILLION CBILLS on a drop ship to go try and capture a planet care if they lose because the enemy just uses traditional builds and you want to play "fun builds"(I do not understand why the term fun seems to be synonymous with bad in this community but whatever). How many merc units are going to be totally fine taking 3 machine gun flamer spiders when every time it costs them a planet with real rewards not just "oh I won or lost, changes nothing, next drop".


Winning right now, does not matter.
Winning in CW DOES matter to the majority of people taking part...else they would not be taking part!

[Khobai]

Quote

In a game. Based solely around combat.....

Sure why not? Almost every game I've ever played that has different classes is based around combat. The key to balancing different classes is to make sure that no one class can do everything and has to rely on the other classes to succeed. MWO fails to do that.

The small maps and unimaginative gamemodes are largely responsible as well. The small maps make scouting completely unecessary as a role because its really easy to find the other team. The gamemodes also heavily promote deathballing instead of encouraging teams to split up into lances which is how it shoud be.

Actually a good idea for a gamemode might be to combine assault and conquest into one gamemode. Make the base destructible instead of capturable. And then first team to destroy the other team's base OR get to 750 points wins. In a gamemode like that it would virtually impossible to win without splitting your team up because you'd constantly have to defend your base while simultaneously capturing objectives. Its a gamemode that requires both fast movers and heavies for defense.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[AC]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Why would you ever bring a light or medium when you are attacking...


Other then tonnage limits forcing people to be easy kills.

What kind of "role" will they be expected to play in CW when the enemy is obviously going to be defending their base so no scouting required...

You must be joking right? A fast light was the ultimate win in MW4 with attack and defend. The main group pulls the defenders off point and the light sneaks in to destroy the target. It was classic!

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Sure why not? Almost every game I've ever played that has different classes is based around combat. The key to balancing different classes is to make sure that no one class can do everything and has to rely on the other classes to succeed. MWO fails to do that.

The small maps and unimaginative gamemodes are largely responsible as well. The small maps make scouting completely unecessary as a role because its really easy to find the other team. The gamemodes also heavily promote deathballing instead of encouraging teams to split up into lances which is how it shoud be.

So you agree with me...yet also say it is ok that the assault mechs, specifically the highlander and stalker and victor do not have to rely on any other classes...

Yet if you go into 12mans and nobody takes an assault all you hear (and I have been in a large number of units groups) is "are we really not going to take any assaults?" The assumption is you will probably lose.

but if you go in with almost all assaults you hear "hahaha they have no chance lets crush them"...

Edited by Wispsy, 25 October 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[dal10]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Bases can only take you so far, and unless you want Alpine to be the "small" map size and to disregard every other one they have made scouting is never going to be a necessary role.

Frankly i wouldn't mind this in the slightest. But then again i think they should be shooting for batt v batt combat. cause that would be awesome.

[Krivvan]

AC, on 25 October 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

You must be joking right? A fast light was the ultimate win in MW4 with attack and defend. The main group pulls the defenders off point and the light sneaks in to destroy the target. It was classic!

But that relies solely on the defenders making a mistake.

[Wispsy]

AC, on 25 October 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

You must be joking right? A fast light was the ultimate win in MW4 with attack and defend. The main group pulls the defenders off point and the light sneaks in to destroy the target. It was classic!

Eh what? if your objective is to defend the base why the hell would you wander off and not leave any cover?

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Right and you do not care about winning...but how many merc units that have spent 180 MILLION CBILLS on a drop ship to go try and capture a planet care if they lose because the enemy just uses traditional builds and you want to play "fun builds"(I do not understand why the term fun seems to be synonymous with bad in this community but whatever). How many merc units are going to be totally fine taking 3 machine gun flamer spiders when every time it costs them a planet with real rewards not just "oh I won or lost, changes nothing, next drop".


Winning right now, does not matter.
Winning in CW DOES matter to the majority of people taking part...else they would not be taking part!

A slight Misquote, I don't care about winning as a PUG, I care a bit more as a Lawman. But it is not my end all requirement for having fun. If I contributed to the purchase of that Dropship My say is just as good as the next guy in it. Do not confuse fun builds with bad ones Sir, you would be making a big mistake

But Community Warfare is not here yet, and we are far from playing the actual game, so if the win is all you care about then fine, just know Murphy's has a two drink minimum before we are allowed to drop together, and maybe it should be something others should think about adopting for themselves, cause they are taking this game far to serious!

[Prezimonto]

Take a hard look at TF2 for a game that provides wildly different roles in combat and wildly different types of gameplay and objectives.

I think there's room for synergies between weapon types and scouting tools to improve damage and odds of killing a mech with more than just LRM spotting. The thing this game is missing is active role warfare and targeting computers. Together could craft a system where a team will want a LOVE their scouts, not just for finding the enemy but for the active role they play in making the rest of the teams combat more effective.

Objective game modes like supply stealing (need to drag a slow sled of supplies, or redirect a convoy, or *gasp* use hand actuators to pick up crates and run off) would give a large and needed boost to the variety of roles in the game. In a game mode like that you need mobile mechs, screening force, scouts/harassers.

Essentially, just because a pure attack and defend mode emphasizes heavy weights, a well designed map will provide routes, objectives, and reasons for mobility to be important as well.

[Khobai]

Quote

So you agree with me...yet also say it is ok that the assault mechs, specifically the highlander and stalker and victor do not have to rely on any other classes...

I dont recall ever saying that it was ok. Heavies/Assaults should absolutely have to rely on Lights/Mediums. I just disagree with you about how to get to that point. Where you just want to nerf the {Scrap} out of Heavies/Assaults so they cant maneuver or turn as quickly. I would actually like to see new roles introduced to the game besides combat for Lights/Mediums to excel at. And Heavies/Assaults should not be able to win on their own without Lights/Mediums performing those roles.

Scouting for example should be a role. It should be impossible for Assaults/Heavies to find out any information whatsoever about the enemy without Lights/Mediums. Assaults/Heavies should have very poor sensors and for the most part shouldnt be able to use ECM/BAP, sensor modules, or even be able to see detailed sensor information on their own without a Light/Medium mech doing it for them. NARC should also have 2-3 different types of ammo and should be the main scouting/utility tool of Lights/Mediums (NARC also shouldnt take up a missile slot).

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

AC, on 25 October 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

You must be joking right? A fast light was the ultimate win in MW4 with attack and defend. The main group pulls the defenders off point and the light sneaks in to destroy the target. It was classic!

also in mw4 fast lights ***** assaults cause they didn't try to brawl them we always sniped and stayed out of range erppc was most common tool on light mech.

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I dont recall ever saying that it was ok. Heavies and Assaults should absolutely have to rely on Lights and Mediums. I just disagree with you about how to get to that point. Where you just want to nerf the {Scrap} out of Heavies and Assaults so they cant maneuver or turn as quickly. I would actually like to see new roles introduced to the game besides combat for Lights and Mediums to excel at. And Heavies/Assaults should not be able to win on their own without Lights/Mediums performing those roles.

I do not want to nerf the hell out of them. I suggested swapping their increased twisting and turning for increased armour and damage reduction...reinforcing their role as the big, hard to take down heavy hitters that they are. That or give lights and mediums more speed so that they can be effective against them.

[Enigmos]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Why would you ever bring a light or medium when you are attacking...

Because I do not like fighting blind, my stalkers are not nimble, and my LRMs need targeting solutions.

[Enigmos]

Fixed defense is Maginot mentality. If I must defend a fixed location at least let me send out mobile patrols and probes. Let me turn their flank and disrupt their order. Let me be anything but a passive target.