121 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

Wispy,

I see what you're saying. Right now, in the current environment, the best way to win (PUG or 12 man) is to load up with as many Highlanders (hands down the best mech in the game and exponentially the best when you have teammates that know how to use them and cover your sectors) and roll heavy. So, given the current gaming environment and looking at the up and coming Attack/Defend game mode, you are absolutely correct in your question of "Why bring a Light or Medium?"

The catch is that PGI is going to drop weight restrictions on us in the near future. It is coming because the old weight matching didn't allow for skill seperation and it forced everyone into using the heaviest mech within each weight class. Plus, it did nothing to dissuade the 12 vs 12 Highlander mash if everyone was taking nothing but assaults. With the new ELO and no weight restrictions or matching, it tries to get the weights as close as possible while getting the skill levels as equal as possible, but there is no guarantee that it happens. So, by forcing all 12 man groups, premade or otherwise, into 750 tons (just an example), you're forced to bring something other than 12 Assaults because you simply can't squeeze all the weight in there. That means that it is no longer a question of "Why would you bring a Light or Medium?" but rather "What are we going to bring and what are we ok with having to use so that we can bring as many of <insert mech>?"

The unfortunate nature of this game is that it isn't a PvP MMO. When you play a game, you're not guaranteed that, for example, everyone is lvl 50. With varying skill levels, tech levels, and weights, its like playing an arena game in WoW pitting any player lvl 40-80, or whatever level it is now, with differing levels of gear. At least with the weight restrictions, which I support but not for the reasons that they're adding them, there is a little more balanced playing field in that everything has to be used or the game won't happen. This feels a little bit like soccer games for 4 year olds where htey don't keep a score so nobody wins or loses to pevent hurt feelings, but it is the best way of making sure that all of the content gets played instead of just what the player base deems as the best.

[Enigmos]

I'd rather the Highlanders would arrive single file and already on broken knees than arrive fresh in good order.

[Zyllos]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Sure why not? Almost every game I've ever played that has different classes is based around combat. The key to balancing different classes is to make sure that no one class can do everything and has to rely on the other classes to succeed. MWO fails to do that.

The small maps and unimaginative gamemodes are largely responsible as well. The small maps make scouting completely unecessary as a role because its really easy to find the other team. The gamemodes also heavily promote deathballing instead of encouraging teams to split up into lances which is how it shoud be.

Actually a good idea for a gamemode might be to combine assault and conquest into one gamemode. Make the base destructible instead of capturable. And then first team to destroy the other team's base OR get to 750 points wins. In a gamemode like that it would virtually impossible to win without splitting your team up because you'd constantly have to defend your base while simultaneously capturing objectives. Its a gamemode that requires both fast movers and heavies for defense.

Initially, this is a good idea.

But there is a small factor your forgetting about the "splitting" part, win by destruction of the other team.

Right now, the reason why people are angry about captures and whatnot is that you only need to destroy 12 mechs and you win, regardless of the objective.

Usually, the team that doesn't stay together dies due to overwhelming firepower and the snow-ball effect of losing mechs.

So, even if it's physically impossible to win by objectives due to splitting up forces, teams will still continue to ball up because it's just better to stay together and kill the other team.

Honestly, this is why I think we need a limited respawn mechanic. Not like tickets or whatnot of other games, but everyone brings a selection of mechs that you get to respawn in, and thats all you have.

What this does it make the win by team kill basically impossible due to time and objectives. But, killing the other team, denying them presence on the battlefield for a while, helps with pushing the objectives. And if players just constantly rush, they will run out of their 4 mechs to respawn in, being no different than it is now.

Regarding class roles, I am fine with Mediums being a bit inferior to Heavies and Assaults, but not versus Lights. Tonnage limits keeps players of Assaults and Heavies from dominating the combat game due to the limited nature of them on the battlefield. This will give the majority of the game back to lighter Heavies and Mediums.

But the major issues with many chassis and variants being weaker is due to issues in the core gameplay. Things like convergence, heat, item mechanics, and hardpoints is what's hurting this balance. This is not the sole problem of balance caused by CW and map issues.

The balance needs to be that when firing at Lights, many of your shots will miss (not a whole lot unlike now) but when Lights fire at anything larger, the shots should be spreading their damage.

Edited by Zyllos, 25 October 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Wispsy]

Trauglodyte, on 25 October 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

The unfortunate nature of this game is that it isn't a PvP MMO. When you play a game, you're not guaranteed that, for example, everyone is lvl 50. With varying skill levels, tech levels, and weights, its like playing an arena game in WoW pitting any player lvl 40-80, or whatever level it is now, with differing levels of gear. At least with the weight restrictions, which I support but not for the reasons that they're adding them, there is a little more balanced playing field in that everything has to be used or the game won't happen. This feels a little bit like soccer games for 4 year olds where htey don't keep a score so nobody wins or loses to pevent hurt feelings, but it is the best way of making sure that all of the content gets played instead of just what the player base deems as the best.

So the level 40s battle it out between themselves and then whoever wins out of the 80s cleans up if their team lost...

[MavRCK]

More modules for lights.

[Trauglodyte]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

So the level 40s battle it out between themselves and then whoever wins out of the 80s cleans up if their team lost...

That will be the way it goes, most likely. If PGI is smart and they created the A/D mode with multiple nodes, you're going to want and need lighter/faster mechs to deal with the one node that you can't cover with your heavy/assault force. Whomever lives through that will add their fire to their own heavy/assault force when facing yours. At that point, it all comes down to skill and balance. But, wouldn't you say that is how it is supposed to be? Fast Mediums and Light Strikers were supposed to be fodder intent on bolstering lighter forces. The walking gun pods (AC20 Hunchy, Hollander, BJ, etc) were supposed to play as heavy weapon platforms on small frames intended to be singular adds to a group to create a heavy punch where not expected. At the end of the day, though, the Heavies were what carried the day and that won't change.

[Trauglodyte]

Now, all of that said, that still doesn't mean that there is a competitive place in the game for mechs like the Locust, Mando, BJ, Dragon, etc. I'm hesitant to say that you could bring one of them along to squeeze more tons into your heavies and assaults, thus reducing the number of Mediums that you'd have to bring. But, knowing the aiming skills that most top end players have (again, that doesn't include me), you'd be really hard pressed to find a spot for the Locust. At least, not until the 1V gets ECM and then even that is pressing. And, several of the mechs that I listed are still extremely lacking either due to slow speeds, limited hard points, or a combination of that and other factors. It does pose the interesting question, though, of putting your group together and whether you'd prefer to go with a Jenner+Victor, Spider+Stalker, or Mando+Highlander.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 25 October 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Trauglodyte, on 25 October 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Now, all of that said, that still doesn't mean that there is a competitive place in the game for mechs like the Locust, Mando, BJ, Dragon, etc. I'm hesitant to say that you could bring one of them along to squeeze more tons into your heavies and assaults, thus reducing the number of Mediums that you'd have to bring. But, knowing the aiming skills that most top end players have (again, that doesn't include me), you'd be really hard pressed to find a spot for the Locust. At least, not until the 1V gets ECM and then even that is pressing. And, several of the mechs that I listed are still extremely lacking either due to slow speeds, limited hard points, or a combination of that and other factors. It does pose the interesting question, though, of putting your group together and whether you'd prefer to go with a Jenner+Victor, Spider+Stalker, or Mando+Highlander.

A BJ I could see in a competitive drop with tonnage limits, but not a locust. The downside is two severe to justify it when you could just take a Shadow hawk or Kintaro instead of the cataphract you really wanted and get a jenner instead of the dead weight locust.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 25 October 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Bagheera]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

The small maps and unimaginative gamemodes are largely responsible as well. The small maps make scouting completely unecessary as a role because its really easy to find the other team. The gamemodes also heavily promote deathballing instead of encouraging teams to split up into lances which is how it shoud be.

This. Part of the problem is that there are really only 2 things to do in either game mode. Cap or Fight. There are little subcategories (ie "roles:" fast striker, pop-tart sniper, brawler, etc) of those things, but essentially there are only 2 real things to do in the game. Spotting (w or w/o TAG) constitutes part of Fight, as does "Scouting." But in the current state of the game "Scouting" is not a really involved enough to be a third major category of roles, it's just the "confirm what I already probably know" portion of the "Fight" choice. Why do I say this?

On every map, in either mode, it is possible to predict the path of both teams with near 100% accuracy. Static defense points on the maps are one of the causes of this - the main one actually. If they want the game to be more interesting, randomize base locations and do not (especially for conquest) place them on mini-map, battlegrid, or HUD until a mech from your team has performed <TASK> at that location. <TASK> can be whatever (tag it, narc it, stand on it for X time, whatever). If everyone goes into every match already knowing where the objectives are, the result is a great number of predictable matches.

While that single change would be great on larger maps (Alpine, Tourmaline), but the little maps don't really have a enough space to move the conquest bases around far enough to make a difference. Randomized locations for Assault on smaller maps would help some, but that does bring us to another problem. Map size was cool when we were 8v8, but Frozen and River (especially River, it plays out the same way pretty much every time.) are just too small for 12v12 - if we really want more non-combat roles or objectives.

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Scouting for example should be a role. It should be impossible for Assaults/Heavies to find out any information whatsoever about the enemy without Lights/Mediums. Assaults/Heavies should have very poor sensors and for the most part shouldnt be able to use ECM/BAP, sensor modules, or even be able to see detailed sensor information on their own without a Light/Medium mech doing it for them. NARC should also have 2-3 different types of ammo and should be the main scouting/utility tool of Lights/Mediums (NARC also shouldnt take up a missile slot).

Also this. Honestly, we get way too much battlefield information by default - and the predictability instilled by the map design and simplistic game modes doesn't help either.

[KinsonRavenlock]

An idea I've just had is the defending team has a certain amount of points that the attackers have to whittle down before the timer runs out.
To randomize it some, make some conquest points worth more points per second than others and have that change per game to allow for more fluid matches.
You could even make the values unknown to both teams until landed on.
You could have secondary points that once captured give bonuses..
Tonnage limits is pretty much a must however inefficient of a solution. I suppose the key is going to be which teams are better at forcing the mismatch tonnage encounters as the battle progresses.
Or hope that the highlander battle leaves the winning sides highlanders so beat up that your mediums have a chance at killing them off .
Shrug..

[Trauglodyte]

Bagheera, on 25 October 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

This. Part of the problem is that there are really only 2 things to do in either game mode. Cap or Fight. There are little subcategories (ie "roles:" fast striker, pop-tart sniper, brawler, etc) of those things, but essentially there are only 2 real things to do in the game. Spotting (w or w/o TAG) constitutes part of Fight, as does "Scouting." But in the current state of the game "Scouting" is not a really involved enough to be a third major category of roles, it's just the "confirm what I already probably know" portion of the "Fight" choice. Why do I say this?

On every map, in either mode, it is possible to predict the path of both teams with near 100% accuracy. Static defense points on the maps are one of the causes of this - the main one actually. If they want the game to be more interesting, randomize base locations and do not (especially for conquest) place them on mini-map, battlegrid, or HUD until a mech from your team has performed <TASK> at that location. <TASK> can be whatever (tag it, narc it, stand on it for X time, whatever). If everyone goes into every match already knowing where the objectives are, the result is a great number of predictable matches.

While that single change would be great on larger maps (Alpine, Tourmaline), but the little maps don't really have a enough space to move the conquest bases around far enough to make a difference. Randomized locations for Assault on smaller maps would help some, but that does bring us to another problem. Map size was cool when we were 8v8, but Frozen and River (especially River, it plays out the same way pretty much every time.) are just too small for 12v12 - if we really want more non-combat roles or objectives.



Also this. Honestly, we get way too much battlefield information by default - and the predictability instilled by the map design and simplistic game modes doesn't help either.

Pertaining to "scouting", none of that is really possible for reasons you mentioned. The small maps pretty round in shape but are too small to do anything with cause you're on top of each other before any scouting is necessary. But the newer maps were created basedon a weird diamond shape which is rather narrow meaning that you coudln't randomize the starting points because you'd have an excess of territory to the sides where nobody would bother fighting.

Essentially, and this was something that I told Iglesias a long time ago when they were talking about adding in Alpine, the maps are really holding back the game. They keep creating maps with forced choke points/meeting areas where players naturally gravitate. They also create maps which are big but aren't extremely massive in size to promote scouting. This, again, is by design because they don't want players walking around aimlessly for too long trying to find the fight. Furthermore, with the Assault mechs being so slow, they don't want to punish players in those mechs by keeping them away from the fights for too long. On top of that, they don't consider scouting to be that much of an addition to the game and are only really considering adding in a scouting bonus based on who gets to first target/acquire information about a mech. We, as a player base, are going to have to resign ourselves to the notion that this is a very vanilla deathmatch game with some mostly unimaginative wrinkles added in for flavor. The ADD population of the world wants more but won't suffer too much without crying about it. So, map/mode design is what it is so that games happen quickly and everyone can play them.

[keith]

pretty sure wispy is right. go back to MW4 with the A/D maps. the ones where u had to take out a base with a {Scrap} ton of turrets and the DS. anyone who played on them type of server regular took nothing but assault mechs, maybe a heavy.

[Trauglodyte]

keith, on 25 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

pretty sure wispy is right. go back to MW4 with the A/D maps. the ones where u had to take out a base with a {Scrap} ton of turrets and the DS. anyone who played on them type of server regular took nothing but assault mechs, maybe a heavy.

I'm with what Wispy, you, and others are saying. I've been ok with getting rid of these resource rigs and replacing them with something that has teeth. Hell, quite frankly, they need to make Assault a little bit like the up and coming A/D and have one node being an armed drop ship (its there on River City). I just think that the devs are extremely worried about making AI defenses too harsh and thus there being waves of QQs about people dying to something that they couldn't prevent. Know what I mean? "I'm here to kill mechs, not get killed by gun turrets" blah blah blah.

[Bagheera]

Trauglodyte, on 25 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Essentially, and this was something that I told Iglesias a long time ago when they were talking about adding in Alpine, the maps are really holding back the game. They keep creating maps with forced choke points/meeting areas where players naturally gravitate. They also create maps which are big but aren't extremely massive in size to promote scouting. This, again, is by design because they don't want players walking around aimlessly for too long trying to find the fight. Furthermore, with the Assault mechs being so slow, they don't want to punish players in those mechs by keeping them away from the fights for too long. On top of that, they don't consider scouting to be that much of an addition to the game and are only really considering adding in a scouting bonus based on who gets to first target/acquire information about a mech. We, as a player base, are going to have to resign ourselves to the notion that this is a very vanilla deathmatch game with some mostly unimaginative wrinkles added in for flavor. The ADD population of the world wants more but won't suffer too much without crying about it. So, map/mode design is what it is so that games happen quickly and everyone can play them.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Bolded the take-away. Too bad too. I bet a couple dozen people on this board could design an awesome "Mechball" or similar game mode. Not really fun for the immersion crowd maybe, but certainly more interesting than navigating the same 2 or 3 paths on any given map over and over again.

[Davers]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

But that relies solely on the defenders making a mistake.

People make mistakes every game. When I get my mech shot out from under me it is usually because of something I did wrong, not because my opponents were master strategists.

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Eh what? if your objective is to defend the base why the hell would you wander off and not leave any cover?

Maybe the base will be in a weak position that can't be defended easily forcing the team to move out to cover multiple choke points? Maybe Arty/Air will be even further improved to deal with campers? Remember, eventually we will be able to launch them from the Battle Map, not even needing LOS.

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

So you agree with me...yet also say it is ok that the assault mechs, specifically the highlander and stalker and victor do not have to rely on any other classes...

Yet if you go into 12mans and nobody takes an assault all you hear (and I have been in a large number of units groups) is "are we really not going to take any assaults?" The assumption is you will probably lose.

but if you go in with almost all assaults you hear "hahaha they have no chance lets crush them"...

This is because of the hate rained upon cap wins. People want to 'win the fight', not 'win the match'.

There could be many more factors to make mediums/lights more attractive in CW. Maybe there will be extra Cbill costs in attacking with an all assault force? PGI has still said they are looking at alternatives to R&R. The stated tonnage limits, while still a bit high for my taste, will force people to use lighter mechs, and a pilot who can do the work of a heavy in a medium will be highly sought after.

[Bagheera]

Davers, on 25 October 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

There could be many more factors to make mediums/lights more attractive in CW. Maybe there will be extra Cbill costs in attacking with an all assault force? PGI has still said they are looking at alternatives to R&R. The stated tonnage limits, while still a bit high for my taste, will force people to use lighter mechs, and a pilot who can do the work of a heavy in a medium will be highly sought after.

What are the stated limits, or where might I find them?


------


PGI/IGP/Whoever is in charge of the implementation of this forum please, for the love of all that is sane, fix search.

Edited by Bagheera, 25 October 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Karyudo ds]

Trauglodyte, on 25 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Essentially, and this was something that I told Iglesias a long time ago when they were talking about adding in Alpine, the maps are really holding back the game. They keep creating maps with forced choke points/meeting areas where players naturally gravitate. They also create maps which are big but aren't extremely massive in size to promote scouting. This, again, is by design because they don't want players walking around aimlessly for too long trying to find the fight. Furthermore, with the Assault mechs being so slow, they don't want to punish players in those mechs by keeping them away from the fights for too long. On top of that, they don't consider scouting to be that much of an addition to the game and are only really considering adding in a scouting bonus based on who gets to first target/acquire information about a mech. We, as a player base, are going to have to resign ourselves to the notion that this is a very vanilla deathmatch game with some mostly unimaginative wrinkles added in for flavor. The ADD population of the world wants more but won't suffer too much without crying about it. So, map/mode design is what it is so that games happen quickly and everyone can play them.

This is basically one of my bigger complaints about this entire game. In MW4 in a PUG scouts were a huge deal. We would go several minutes before finding the enemy and then figuring out how to make best use of the situation we ended up engaging in. That also made Mediums very handy since they were able to be next behind the lights and while Assaults were slow that didn't really bother people because we had people telling us which direction to go! Instead here we already know where to go on every map just about every game.

These maps don't look terrible, but PGI's console map making pedigree shows on every one of them. Gets you into the fight...then leaves you to have to rebalance the weight classes somehow to make up for what got lost in translation.

Edited by Karyudo ds, 25 October 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

The one thing that I REALLY REALLY think that limits the options for Scouting is that, and this happens a lot to me in a lot of PUG games, when you're the only Light, you can only report the one mech that you're locked on to and for only as long as you have it in LOS. If there was a way to make information relaying easier wihtout absolutely having to have 3rd party comms, Scouting could be a lot more fun and effective.

[Davers]

Bagheera, on 25 October 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

What are the stated limits, or where might I find them?


------


PGI/IGP/Whoever is in charge of the implementation of this forum please, for the love of all that is sane, fix search.

Still searching for the post. Something important that will totally define what CW is should be easier to find.

Did find this quote from Thomas D

"We'll have a internal playtest today on Conquest Random and what turned out to be King of the Hill when u turn off the home bases as well.

I'm guessing the former will be fun especially when one of the middle bases is closer to the other team. I'm predicting it will turn a little into Attack/Defend at that point."


http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2790441

Wonder if this is what Attack/Defend will be?

edit:
I can't find it, and poor Helmer (whom I bothered) can't find it either. But I believe the maximum drop weight for a 12 man was 720 (not sure the minimum) and for 2 players it was 40 min, and 150 max I believe.

Edited by Davers, 25 October 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Krivvan]

Trauglodyte, on 25 October 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The one thing that I REALLY REALLY think that limits the options for Scouting is that, and this happens a lot to me in a lot of PUG games, when you're the only Light, you can only report the one mech that you're locked on to and for only as long as you have it in LOS. If there was a way to make information relaying easier wihtout absolutely having to have 3rd party comms, Scouting could be a lot more fun and effective.

You're really only supposed to report the direction the enemy team is taking and where they are in general. Not the loadout of each single enemy mech.