166 replies to this topic

[xhrit]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

do you even know what a scout is? lol

"A United States Marine Corps Scout Sniper (MOS 0317, formerly 8541) is a secondary MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) designator of U.S. Marine Corps infantrymen and reconnaissance Marines that have graduated from a U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper School."

[Khobai]

well when you made a statement like "scouts job is to shoot stuff" it kindve put into question whether or not you knew what scouting was.

Scouting is not shooting stuff. scouting is finding the enemy mechs and their compositions. Currently an assault mech can do that just as well as a light mech just by going into 3PV and periscoping over a hill. There is no dedicated scout mech or a dedicated scout role in MWO.

Scouting is a purely hypothetical role that lights/mediums should excel at so they arnt just inferior to heavies/assaults in combat. But in order for scouting to be a viable role, some major changes need to be made to the game so finding out information about the enemy is actually worth the risk.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Warge]

Coralld, on 26 October 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

What would help Lights and Mediums is if they were given bonuses to spotting, TAGing, NARCing, and Capping because right now there is really little incentive to do so for the fact that XP and C-Bills you get out of it is horrible compared to killing/crippling/assisting.

When TAGing enemy with my Commando - I get only one time bonus for that. It's better to have bonuses for damage done by LRM boats as long as I TAGing enemy.

Coralld, on 26 October 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Also, we need a better pilots tree for the classes and for specific mechs, also making some modules more class and mech specific as well.

Dreams... dreams...

[stinkypuppy]

WM Mangonel, on 25 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

when a 30 ton mechs decide it's more advantageous for them to brawl mechs 2-3x their tonnage then your game needs some adjusting.

lights are broke as hell not taking damage and it's really starting to wear thin, wait sorry no that was like 4 months ago.

when is this **** going to fixed so that lights have something to fear?

as a light pilot i need to say this is ********. yeah sure you may see me circle strafing atlases and occasionally tearing off the side torsos and removing that XL from a jagermech DD but when i do that is called "GROWING A PAIR OF BALLS" besides if all light mechs blew up against anything heavier than them than whats the point of using it? its called BALANCE FOR A REASON. its like if in battlefield 3 you complained a RPG-7 was OP because its a hand held weapon instead of having to use a tank.

[xhrit]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

well when you make a statement like "scouts job is to shoot stuff" it kindve put into question whether or not you know what scouting is.

This entire conversation has made it pretty clear you have no idea what scouting is. Scouting is finding the enemy and their compositions.... and then shooting them up.... and then running away.... and then kiting them into traps... and then doubling back around to ambush the survivors.

"Two different mission types are still implemented in the Force Reconnaissance motives today: Key Hole and Sting Ray. These practices subsequently became contemporary as "deep reconnaissance", or green operations; and "direct action", which are known as black operations.

Key Hole patrols were designed purely around reconnaissance and surveillance; usually lightly equipped and armed with defensive weapons—evasive techniques were employed to break contact from the enemy should the need arise, avoiding contact with the enemy was paramount.

Sting Ray operations were the exact opposite of Key Hole missions with goals more closely in line of offensive strikes, the FORECON operators were heavily armed and used artillery and/or naval gunfire support, if available.

However, what began as a 'key hole' patrol could become a 'sting ray' patrol with little warning. The versatility of FORECON is demonstrated when missions quickly turn, planned or not, from a deep reconnaissance patrol to a direct action engagement."

http://en.wikipedia...._Reconnaissance

Edited by xhrit, 26 October 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[FupDup]

xhrit, on 26 October 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

A rose by any other name.

Example 1 : a totally different game with scouts who's role is to steath behind an enemy and backstab for massive DPS.

-picture-

Example 2 : USMC Marine Force Recon. They are scouts, who's role is to steath behind an enemy and 1 shot someone from a mile away.

-picture-

At this point we're basically debating what the definition for what a "scout" is. Regardless of the name we use for it, I think we can both agree that fast, sneaky mechs should be capable of a ninja/assassin role if equipped properly for that job (and if they are going against mechs that are not properly equipped to deal with them). I was just hung-up on the Classic Battletech connotation of the word "scout" as opposed to how other games and the USMC use the word.

Edited by FupDup, 26 October 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Krivvan]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Scouting is not shooting stuff. scouting is finding the enemy mechs and their compositions. Currently an assault mech can do that just as well as a light mech just by going into 3PV and periscoping over a hill. There is no dedicated scout mech or a dedicated scout role in MWO.

To be fair, it'd be terrible game design to have someone play a role where all they do for entire games is scout.

Playing a role doesn't mean that you have to play that role for an entire game. Lights scout better than Assaults because they are able to flee danger easily and they can check every route on a map much easier than an Assault can.

Lights don't (and shouldn't) spend the entire game scouting. When the positions of the entire enemy team are known, then they would become useless.

You can argue about how useful scouting is to the game and all, but under good game designs lights shouldn't be relegated to scouting the entire game.

And you can't 3PV in the 12-man queue, where scouting is actually important (or at least more important, depending on who you ask).

Lights should have part of their role be combat-oriented, just not in the same way as the other weight classes. What you call that (scout, armed recon, whatever) doesn't matter.

Edited by Krivvan, 26 October 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

To be fair, it'd be terrible game design to have someone play a role where all they do for entire games is scout.

I completely disagree. I used to play a game called Allegiance. Scouts were one of the most important ship classes in the game because they had a much larger sensor radius than any other ship and could detect enemy ships without being detected themselves. Scouts were absolutely essential for finding enemy bases, stopping enemy offensives, and countering stealth bombers. Essentially all you did was scout, but it was fun because you always had something to do and the function of scouting was 100% vital to winning. Without scouts your team was literally blind because none of the other ships had very good sensors.

Quote

This entire conversation has made it pretty clear you have no idea what scouting is. Scouting is finding the enemy and their compositions.... and then shooting them up.... and then running away.... and then kiting them into traps... and then doubling back around to ambush the survivors.

Which makes no sense in the context of MWO. Unless you think Jenners should dig spike pits and cover them with leaves for Atlases to fall in.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Krivvan]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

I completely disagree. I used to play a game called Allegiance. Scouts were one of the most important ship classes in the game because they had a much larger sensor radius than any other ship and could detect enemy ships without being detected themselves. Scouts were absolutely essential for finding enemy bases, stopping enemy offensives, and countering stealth bombers.

I've played Allegiance, and I wouldn't say it's a game that would appeal outside of a very niche audience.

[Mycrus]

Light mechs are not all "scouts" as an example the commando is a strike / skirmisher mech it is not a "scout"...

[Durant Carlyle]

Rasako, on 26 October 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

All we have to go on is what PGI has said and even they know that lights (particularly the spider and jenner) have serious hitbox problems and said they'd be looking into them

I am a light pilot. 99% of my seat time is spent in lights.

Jenner is not broken.
Locust is not broken.
Commando was not broken the last time I sat in one, but it has been a few months. I kill them just fine with my MLas/SSRM Jenner.
Raven was not broken the last time I sat in one. Again, it has been a few months. They die to my MLas/SSRM Jenner with no problems.
Spider is broken. Two of the best matches I've ever had were in a Spider (before the 171 kph speed buff, 5V with 2 MPLas, match score 141, 7 kills, 4 assists, 929 damage in one match, the other I forgot to screenshot but it was similar). My MLas/SSRM Jenner still kills them, but it takes a lot longer than it should.

[xhrit]

FupDup, on 26 October 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

At this point we're basically debating what the definition for what a "scout" is. Regardless of the name we use for it, I think we can both agree that fast, sneaky mechs should be capable of a ninja/assassin role if equipped properly for that job (and if they are going against mechs that are not properly equipped to deal with them). I was just hung-up on the Classic Battletech connotation of the word "scout" as opposed to how other games and the USMC use the word.

Well we can put this entire discussion to rest then, since the classic battletech role of scout is the same as the USMC role of scout.

http://www.sarna.net...tleMech_role%29

sarna.net said:

"Scouts operate in the dangerous role of reconnaissance for the main force, utilizing their speed advantage to complete the intelligence mission and avoid hostile weapons fire. Generally not used at the lowest lance levels, but reserved by larger tactical formations, they may also be sent on other specific-criteria missions. When speed is of the essence or when the enemy is supported primarily by other light and fast 'Mechs, the Scout may be the best option.


Though known for their light armor and weaponry both, it is reckless to disregard the Scout. Due to their high speed, other 'Mechs find them hard to target, which is often compounded by the frequent ability to jump. Combine those two factors with heavy cover, the preferred method of approach by a Scout, and the unit has a better than fair opportunity to strike a target from its weakest points. Scouts often team up with medium and heavy 'Mechs that provide cover support and add the increased threat of a more 'dangerous' opponent, often diverting attention away from the Scout itself. This inattention may allow the Scout the opportunity to attack from the rear."

Scouts role is to find the enemy (deep reconnaissance), then shoot it's weak points from the rear (direct action).

Krivvan said:

To be fair, it'd be terrible game design to have someone play a role where all they do for entire games is scout.

Notice there s a difference between scouting (a combat role) and spying (a non combat role)? The people who think scouts should not shoot things have the two confused.

wikipedia said:

Reconnaissance is the military term for exploring beyond the area occupied by friendly forces to gain vital information about enemy forces or features of the environment for later analysis and/or dissemination. Examples of reconnaissance include patrolling by troops (LRRPs, Rangers, scouts, or military intelligence specialists), ships or submarines, manned/unmanned aircraft, satellites, or by setting up covert observation posts. Espionage normally is not reconnaissance, because reconnaissance is a military force's operating ahead of its main forces; spies are non-combatants operating behind enemy lines.

wikipedia said:

In the context of special operations, direct action (DA) consists of: "Short-duration strikes and other small-scale offensive actions conducted as a special operation in hostile, denied, or politically sensitive environments and which employ specialized military capabilities to seize, destroy, capture, exploit, recover, or damage designated targets. Direct action differs from conventional offensive actions in the level of physical and political risk, operational techniques, and the degree of discriminate and precise use of force to achieve specific objectives."

Edited by xhrit, 27 October 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[Krivvan]

xhrit, on 27 October 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

Scouts role is to find the enemy, then shoot it's weak points from the rear.

Or cap, or otherwise sow confusion and/or disorder in order to create an opportunity for an offensive push by the heavier elements of the team.

[xhrit]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Or cap, or otherwise sow confusion and/or disorder in order to create an opportunity for an offensive push by the heavier elements of the team.

Exactly. A scouts role is to find the enemy, then sow confusion, disrupt troop movements, seize high ground, destroy targets of opportunity, capture control points, exploit weaknesses in an enemy line, recover damaged mechs by bailing them out of a 1v1, or just straight up damage designated targets when the lance/company leader calls out what mech everyone should focus fire on.

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Which makes no sense in the context of MWO. Unless you think Jenners should dig spike pits and cover them with leaves for Atlases to fall in.

I think I have discovered the issue here. The issue here is you are ignorant of actual real life military tactics, and or have zero imagination. A Jenner does not dig a spike pit for Atlases to fall in. They dig a kill box for Atlases to fall in.

Edited by xhrit, 27 October 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[meteorol]

TBH, i feel like the spider is the only light mech with some goofy issues.

I recently startet playing victors. Grinded the 9B first, with an ac20 in the arm. I only played 20 matches to get the basic skills and sold it afterwards. Got 35 kills in those 20 matches, and atleast 10 or 15 of them were light mechs.
I did put ac20 shells in Jenners, commandos, ravens and locusts just fine. Sometimes i hit them in the face and it didn't cause damage at all, but this is a general hit registration issue which affects all mechs.

But spiders? I shot more than a few spiders in the face with my ac20 (stupid spiders running in a straight line towards me), just to see my crosshair turning red, his paperdoll flashing at the CT, but it chances from undamaged to light yellow. Don't know what is causing this. I wish my pc would be good enough to handle videorecording while playing mwo. I would love to watch those shots in slow motion to get an idea what acutally happens.

[anonymous161]

I myself have gotten rather tired of the amount of lights in a match anymore, sometimes it's pretty much one sided enemy team will have nothing but heavy mechs and I'll have 90% of my own team being small as locust which feel rather pitiful in this game.

The matchmaking system is getting worse every day it seems. Terrible balancing in the teams and it would have been better if they do similar matchmaking like done in the halo games, where it put you in matches to similar ranked people. Not a full proof system but better balanced.

I also see way too many team mates just hiding behind rocks waiting for a kill shot while I or others getting damaged tot he critical point and then finally they come out only to die in like 3 or 5 hits.

game has great matches and can be a lot of fun if you are doing well in a game, but too often I'm bored and annoyed.

[Julian Tifflor]

what i do mind is lights rather go into the infight later in the game at conquest mode rather than capping points and i find myself with my jagermech sitting at cappoints since the lights left early cause they dont care to cap and often we do lose cause of it.

nvm the matchs where we dont have even one light mech and are outcapped easily.

[xhrit]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 October 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

You're argument is akin to letting a Humvee ... take out a tank simply cause it can roll circles around it.

In the real world a Humvee is able to take out a tank just fine.

Edited by xhrit, 27 October 2013 - 03:32 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

As you can see the game is not driven by the center but instead the elites. Meanwhile the players in the middle and the bottom (pugs, casuals and noobs) get eaten alive unless they accept the elite paradigm.

None of this works twoards building a popular succsesful game.

Next time you see 9 or 10 v 12 think about it. Were killing the game with the tunnel vision.

[aniviron]

Roland, on 26 October 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

The Charger would like to have a word with you.
Also, it would like you to please ignore that it is considered "an abject failure of mech design".

Not to bust your bubble or anything, but my AWS-9M goes 86kph just like the charger (albeit with much better weaponry and armor) and it's a miserable scout. It's huge, and really, it's significantly slower than any light you'll ever see. Even the very slowest stock lights, the RVN-2/4X are just as fast, and nobody runs them stock.

It also doesn't accelerate and turn like a scout. Yes, it's fast, but it doesn't get in and out of sticky situations with fluid grace like anything worthy of the title would.