166 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

Roland, on 28 October 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Well, we actually used to pilot light mechs back in closed beta, when everything knocked you over.

I know, I did too (I was around then). Consider that R&R was in place back then, so piloting light mechs had some reasons driving it.

Of course I doubt we'll see a total extinction of light mechs (the die-hard fans will cling to them), but I think the majority of the current pilots will disappear into something heavier.

[Adridos]

xhrit, on 27 October 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

In the real world a Humvee is able to take out a tank just fine.

Actually, any decent tank has an anti-rocket system installed by now. Heck, Russians have them and they always end up on the butt end of jokes when it comes to tanks.

A Humvee doesn't take out a tank just fine unless it is fighting some old junk, but any mech fighting a Mackie would fare the same.

[Joseph Mallan]

xhrit, on 27 October 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

In the real world a Humvee is able to take out a tank just fine.

An Infantryman with a Dragon is just as capable, so HumVees are not needed right?

[Prezimonto]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Is it really? Every Mechwarrior that I've played has been about combat and dealing damage.

I don't know which mechwarrior games you were playing where objectives were totally ignored, but I don't remember one myself where the goal of a majority of maps were a giant deathmatch arena. Most mechwarrior games use combat as a tool to achieve a goal, and often many goals at once... forcing you to split forces and use resources wisely. This game has actually simplified most of that to non-importance.

[Black Lobo]

Krivvan, on 28 October 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

"Let's go kill the other team" isn't a single role. There are many games with very clearly delineated roles that the game forces upon you that all revolve around killing the other team.

Nope, that really is just a single role, just repackaged and renamed something else.

Also, for Jospeh Mallan, the Dragon missile system has been obsolete for almost 20 years now. The Javelin is what's primarily in use now.

Edited by Black Lobo, 28 October 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Black Lobo, on 28 October 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Nope, that really is just a single role, just repackaged and renamed something else.

Also, for Jospeh Mallan, the Dragon missile system has been obsolete for almost 20 years now. The Javelin is what's primarily in use now.

LOL The Dragon was what was used when I was in so we have just dated my involvement.

[Vodrin Thales]

WM Mangonel, on 25 October 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

and role warfare is totally broken for the exact reason that lights should rarely/never try to brawl with heavies and assaults unless they have already been savagely ripped open.

So what exactly should lights be doing in this game? The system really doesn't reward anything as much as kills and damage, so if they can get away with brawling why not?

For the record I only attempt this when I realize the opposing team are poor marksman. Running through the whole team repeatedly gets you legged and killed quickly if the opposing team can shoot straight.

[Khobai]

Quote

So what exactly should lights be doing in this game? The system really doesn't reward anything as much as kills and damage, so if they can get away with brawling why not?

Nothing wrong with lights being in combat. But lights shouldnt be as good in combat as mediums/heavies/assaults. Instead they should be better at other roles, which currently dont exist.

[Prezimonto]

Khobai, on 28 October 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Nothing wrong with lights being in combat. But lights shouldnt be as good in combat as mediums/heavies/assaults. Instead they should be better at other equally important roles to match success, which currently dont exist.

fixed that for you...

[Corbon Zackery]

WM Jeri, on 28 October 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Don' t think the OP it talking about your piloting style which is exactly what lights should do but rather the light that runs into the fray and spend 1-2 minutes outright brawling, mainly the spiders. They will even run right up on you directly under you trying to get under you gun depression and suffer no consequence from collision for me thats the biggest issue I see, don't really pilot assaults unless they are faster or have JJ's but thats what I see when I am shooting at them.

I have no issues at all otherwise with the working as intended. Just bring back knockdown then we will see the truly talented light pilots in my opinion.

The min you bring back knock downs. Closed Beta vets will just change tactics, and will start abusing the knockdowns again. I know all the trip tactics. "Trip the ECM raven is my favorite." So my team just shoots his back armor when he falls face first into the mud. You want knockdowns so you can exploit them not so you can kill light mechs. I cant deal with it I need my trip attack.

There are several weapons that are effective light mech killers try using them. Having a treb. with 3 large lasers and 3 streak packs near you is a good deterrent. 40ton Cicada with 6 small pulse lasers. Weapons are out there you just have to open your mind.

Go to your library and check out Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw.

[wintersborn]

The only role I have found in this game is to kill and get kill assists to grind for CB.

[Black Lobo]

I prefer to read the Small Wars Manual, a staple for over 100 years...

[Vodrin Thales]

Khobai, on 28 October 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Nothing wrong with lights being in combat. But lights shouldnt be as good in combat as mediums/heavies/assaults. Instead they should be better at other roles, which currently dont exist.

Lights are nowhere near as good as Heavies/ Assaults. That's why competitive 12 man teams take just enough to use to spot the enemy and protect against back caps by the opposition. Everything else is heavy and up (Usually cataphracts with Highlanders).

[Sir Wulfrick]

As an Atlas pilot, I'd say that light mechs do not need nerfing in any way. There. I said it.

I've thought for a long time that light mechs should be very inferior to heavies & assault mechs at direct combat. By the same token, heavy & assault mechs should be absolutely useless at scouting, reconnaissance, rear-echelon harassment missions & any number of other mission types that call for extremely mobile, lightning-fast strike or observation forces.

The problem with MWO is that all of the aforementioned roles should be equally rewarded. With the game as it is, the only things that are rewarded (to a first approximation) are damage dealt and kills. If MWO featured much larger maps with genuinely useful multiple routes to objectives or mission-type maps then the effectiveness of light mechs at scouting and fast strikes behind enemy lines would be immediately apparent. As it is, those roles are entirely non-existant, thus forcing light mechs in to the same damage and kills meta at which heavy & assault mechs excell.

I suppose it's possible that at some point in the future, with the introduction of the fabled community warfare, that scout mission, deep strikes, periphery raids and the like could all feature as actual missions. Taking a heavy or assault mech on any of these missions would likely be suicide. Simmilarly, as an Atlas pilot I'd expect to bid for contracts for direct heavy assaults, static defence missions and the like. Horses for courses.

Apparently PGI seems to favour the quick-in-and-out nature that MWO currently has. I think they need to realise that a significant proportion of the player base is NOT LOOKING for another Unreal Tournament (a game I deeply love BTW) where you can dip in for a few quick games then jump out & go play tennis. Or whatever. Many of us would relish much longer, objective based missions, different types of mission. Something for all pilots & all weight classes to get to grips with. As it stands MWO may as well be constant arena matches.

Light, medium, heavy and assault mech roles should be distinct. They should also all be necessary for victory and all be equally rewarded.

[Vodrin Thales]

Roland, on 28 October 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Derp?

I wonder if he realizes that the 10 engine double heat sinks would give him substantially better cooling than his 14 SHS. If he could mount 12 DHS that would be almost double the cooling of his 14 SHS.

[xhrit]

Prezimonto, on 28 October 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't know which mechwarrior games you were playing where objectives were totally ignored, but I don't remember one myself where the goal of a majority of maps were a giant deathmatch arena.

I was playing this one :

Edited by xhrit, 28 October 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[Krivvan]

Black Lobo, on 28 October 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Nope, that really is just a single role, just repackaged and renamed something else.

A Sniper is a fundamentally different role from a Brawler...

A Skirmisher is a different role from a Sniper. If you're talking about non-combat roles, what else could there be besides Scouting unless you start introducing some ridiculous objectives and scenarios into the game (hacking or etc.)?

Edited by Krivvan, 28 October 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Black Lobo, on 28 October 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Nope, that really is just a single role, just repackaged and renamed something else.

Also, for Jospeh Mallan, the Dragon missile system has been obsolete for almost 20 years now. The Javelin is what's primarily in use now.

Combat roles
Rifleman
Grenadier
Automatic rifleman
Squad leader

Heavy weapons

Yup. If you are playing a Grunt you are playing one role with various hats.

Spotting an Scouting are roles every Infantryman/soldier is trained to do to some degree. A dedicated Scout, If allowed to be done right, Would never be found by most players of a combat game. They are hard enough to find when you know what to look for, an how to look for them.

[xhrit]

Krivvan, on 28 October 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

A Sniper is a fundamentally different role from a Brawler...

A Skirmisher is a different role from a Sniper. If you're talking about non-combat roles, what else could there be besides Scouting unless you start introducing some ridiculous objectives and scenarios into the game (hacking or etc.)?

Just like a Skirmisher is a different role from a Sniper, a Scout is a different role then a Spotter or a Spy.

Vodrin Thales, on 28 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Lights are nowhere near as good as Heavies/ Assaults. That's why competitive 12 man teams take just enough to use to spot the enemy and protect against back caps by the opposition. Everything else is heavy and up (Usually cataphracts with Highlanders).

This right here confirms that distinct roles do exist and are competitive. 12 man teams take just enough lights to fill the role of scout and fast striker, then fill out the rest of the team with brawlers, snipers and fire support.

You will find 2-4 scouts in every competitive premade.

Role warfare : Working as intended?

Edited by xhrit, 30 October 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[divinedisclaimer]

WM Mangonel, on 25 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

when a 30 ton mechs decide it's more advantageous for them to brawl mechs 2-3x their tonnage then your game needs some adjusting.

lights are broke as hell not taking damage and it's really starting to wear thin, wait sorry no that was like 4 months ago.

when is this **** going to fixed so that lights have something to fear?

My Jenner KDR is 2.5 because you are bad, not because my Jenner is hard to hit.

Come play Counter-Strike with me, clearly you skipped FPS Basic.