50 replies to this topic

[Magna Canus]

These are some really great tips. Another really good LRM Assault is the BLR-1S.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fe317fea1307578

Edited by Magnakanus, 28 October 2013 - 03:37 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Eaerie, on 28 October 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

the bay doors shouldnt have anything to do with the salvo size. that is how many tubes are in that slot.

What he's saying is that half the Stalker does not have bay doors and the other half does.

So if he fires all the launchers at once, the ones without bay doors fire instantly and the ones with bay doors fire a second later, splitting the salvo. So he's not wrong, I just wasn't thinking of the Stalker which is to my knowledge the only 'mech that does this.

[Victor Morson]

Magnakanus, on 28 October 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

These are some really great tips. Another really good LRM Assault is the BLR-1S.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fe317fea1307578

I'll give you the Battlemaster is a decent LRM boat for pugs even if I wouldn't waste the tonnage in a serious drop on an LRM setup.

But this I think you'll find is a major improvement:
Improved Battlemaster

No ghost heat so it can alpha strike without worry in one big, AMS bashing cluster - same number of launchers. I lost the meds but if you're down to fighting with medium lasers in a dedicated 85 ton LRM boat, something has gone seriously wrong.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 October 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[Autobot9000]

Victor Morson, on 28 October 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Go ahead and open the bay doors if you're in a 'mech with half bay doored, half open missile slots! heh

jeez, noob

Edited by Autobot9000, 28 October 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[Magna Canus]

Victor Morson, on 28 October 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

I'll give you the Battlemaster is a decent LRM boat for pugs even if I wouldn't waste the tonnage in a serious drop on an LRM setup.

But this I think you'll find is a major improvement:
Improved Battlemaster

No ghost heat so it can alpha strike without worry in one big, AMS bashing cluster - same number of launchers. I lost the meds but if you're down to fighting with medium lasers in a dedicated 85 ton LRM boat, something has gone seriously wrong.

The thing about this build though is that the LRM20 in the arm gets split up because you only have 15 tubes in the arms and your 20s get split up into 15/5 salvo's.

Something can always go wrong, especially in PUG matches where your LRM boat can just get left behind. In a 2-4 man group this would work because you can order dedicated support, otherwise, keep the Med's. PUGs will always show you the necessity.

[xengk]

Victor Morson, on 28 October 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

I'll give you the Battlemaster is a decent LRM boat for pugs even if I wouldn't waste the tonnage in a serious drop on an LRM setup.

But this I think you'll find is a major improvement:
Improved Battlemaster

No ghost heat so it can alpha strike without worry in one big, AMS bashing cluster - same number of launchers. I lost the meds but if you're down to fighting with medium lasers in a dedicated 85 ton LRM boat, something has gone seriously wrong.

Edited by xengk, 29 October 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[Javenri]

Victor Morson, on 28 October 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

That's why I say assault LRM boats are bad. Simply put any competent Cent LRM driver could absolutely floor your 85 ton assault, despite it's other advantages. Doubly so if it's using Artemis + TAG to tighten the groups into direct CT hits instead of scattered damage.

Stalker is not the best LRM assault to be honest, so don't generalize. I have both Stalker and Awsome LRM boats and the Awsome is the best by far. I can see no chance for any Centurion LRM boat vs my Awsome LRM boat. Seriously.

[Bront]

Javenri, on 29 October 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Stalker is not the best LRM assault to be honest, so don't generalize. I have both Stalker and Awsome LRM boats and the Awsome is the best by far. I can see no chance for any Centurion LRM boat vs my Awsome LRM boat. Seriously.

Stalkers can be effective, and the 3H is a very good missile boat. The Battlemaster 1S and one of the Highlanders also makes a good missile boat. The big problem with Awesomes is, that at the end of they day, they're still awesomes and are easy to core.

[Dawnstealer]

My tactic is to usually wait until an enemy is committed; so wait until they're in a consistent position and focusing fire on someone (even you). I usually don't fire at anything fast (unless I have them TAGged or want them running for cover or they're holding still for some reason) and usually save my missiles for targets under 700m away.

The best use is keeping someone 200m away and just pouring in the missiles while tagging them, but that can be dangerous, too.

[Victor Morson]

Javenri, on 29 October 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Stalker is not the best LRM assault to be honest, so don't generalize. I have both Stalker and Awsome LRM boats and the Awsome is the best by far. I can see no chance for any Centurion LRM boat vs my Awsome LRM boat. Seriously.

I've brought down tons of Awesome LRM boats. It simply comes down to the fact the Awesome (at least any that sport missiles) cap out at around 50 after speed tweak. I'm moving closer to 100. This results in three scenarios:

• Open Field Fighting: The Centurion's stick like profile from the side means in an open field, with no cover, in a straight slug match the Centurion will still take it. By running 90 degrees to the side from the Awesome, about 80% of the LRMs will be hitting dirt. By contrast, the Centurion's LRMs will have a near 100% hit rate against an Awesome in that scenario.*
  
• Minimum Range control: The two clash at around 300m. The Centurion can bolt inside of LRM minimum, pulling back for a shot and then re-pushing in. If the LRM boat doesn't have alert backup, there's literally nothing an Awesome can do about this.
  
• Maximum Range control: Simply by staying at around 900, the Centurion can continually shell the Awesome with LRMs ; if it takes return fire, it can simply run back to the 1000 range, and avoid it. Meanwhile, the Awesome won't be able to clear the 1000m even at full speed.

And yes, all three of these scenarios come up frequently in matches. This is just referring to a fight between them, too. In terms of overall usefulness, the Awesome can't maintain optimum range on the team targets - it's easy to crowd with any weapon system platform. It is much harder to pin down a medium (with useless arms for extra durability), while it is much easier for the medium to maintain lock and shift vantage points.


The Awesome really loses on all fronts as an LRM boat, as do most assaults. I think the Battlemaster is the only one I could make a case for, as mentioned above, because it's got a very unrestricted engine and a great hardpoint layout for it. I wouldn't waste the tonnage on it in a league game, but it's still a very solid pugger.

* On Tourmaline Desert I think I've killed more Stalker/Awesome/Highlander LRM boats than I can count and never taken more than light-moderate damage at most in these scenarios.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 October 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Victor Morson]

xengk, on 29 October 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

LRM is a weapon system you have to dedicate to, in my opinion, or it's not worth dealing with. Why?

• It starts out very heavy, with huge taken crits.
  
• It eats ammo worse than any other weapon system (more weight)
  
• It needs Artemis to score any effective damage
  
• LRM mechs need a BAP to counter ECM & help with targeting
  
• An optimal LRM mech also needs Adv. Target Decay, an expensive module that ties a slot
  
• LRMs need to carry large vollies so they can pierce AMS systems, when no other gun has a counter

By the time you figure all that in, the most backup you are going to get is a few lasers. And the unfortunate reality is a few lasers have never stopped anyone from murdering an LRM boat.

It's better to sink the tonnage into absolutely, positively maximizing that role. LRMs are one of the few weapon systems that almost demand you run XL.

I think if they were to increase the LRM ammo (which IMO it badly needs) you could make a way better case for backup weapons. But as it stands if you fill a dedicated LRM mech with 8 tons of ammo, it will burn ALL of them before the fight is over. Not even AC/5s eat ammo like that.

Think of it this way: 3 Medium Lasers that aren't going to stop anyone from rushing/murdering you, or 3 more tons of ammo that is capable of killing 2 whole more mechs? I simply cannot justify the lasers.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 October 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Magna Canus]

Victor Morson, on 29 October 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Think of it this way: 3 Medium Lasers that aren't going to stop anyone from rushing/murdering you, or 3 more tons of ammo that is capable of killing 2 whole more mechs? I simply cannot justify the lasers.

I tend to disagree here and strongly. Yes you do need a lot of things to make LRMs "worth the tonage", but within 180m you are defenseless and useless without a back-up weapon. I have gotten a few kills with my BLR-1S's medium lasers: sometimes it is a battered mech that has made it through the firing line and wants that "easy kill", other times it's a light on a strafe run, etc.

I would rather have a ton or two less ammo and the ability to be useful and supportive in the long AND short range than limiting myself to just long range. It often gets reduced to me firing LRMs at a long range target and giving support fire to team mates with my lasers at short range more or less at the same time.

[Bront]

Victor Morson, on 29 October 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Think of it this way: 3 Medium Lasers that aren't going to stop anyone from rushing/murdering you, or 3 more tons of ammo that is capable of killing 2 whole more mechs? I simply cannot justify the lasers.

You'd be surprised. THere's a range where you can use MLs and LRMs and be super deadly, and 3 MLs can be deadly to lights who think you're defenseless.

When I pilot fast mechs, I salivate at LRM boats because many of them don't take close range defense seriously, and they're easy targets. The ones that have some reasonable close defense, well, they're harder to toast, because you have to avoid fire from them (while sometimes you simply have to avoid fire from their friends).

Heck, one of my more successful LRM boats has 2 LLs on it because I had a combination of space and tonnage for it, and I'd rather than 2 LLs than 4 more tons of ammo (my 2 choices without upgrading to a faster engine). The end result is it lets me contribute beyond simply missiles, and I've taken out a few lights who thought I was easy prey.

[Koniving]

Victor Morson, on 27 October 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

• You always want Artemis. ALWAYS.
  
• Remember, don't bother opening your bay doors with LRMs. That extra armor on 'mechs like the Catapult or Centurion are very worthwhile, since the delay barely impacts them. This is in shark contrast to SRMs or Streaks on those designs.

Disagree only on the Artemis. If you fire one launcher at a time with half a second between you'll get the same concentrated results as twin launchers with Artemis.

But so everyone knows if you're chain fire with launchers that have doors you will face the risk of accidentally firing 2 volleys when you only intended to fire them one at a time unless you open the doors beforehand. In my ROFLpult vids since I switch to third person you can see I try to always open my doors before I stop lobbing LRMs. Those penalties can hit you accidentally otherwise (when you're boating 3 or more launchers of a punishable weapon).

Edited by Koniving, 30 October 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

I have a BLR with among other things 3 SSRM2s, 1 LRM10 and BAP, and will generally carry Adv. Target Decay. I find lots of people don't carry AMS, and I hate, hate, hate, hate (and yet still more hate unless I'm driving one) Spiders, Commandos and Jenners. Most lights need to be inside 270 meters and as long as I keep track of where they are going in and out of the 180 m / 270 m I can keep singletons off my back. Two ECM lights, I'm as screwed as anyone else.

Pug life.

[Bront]

Koniving, on 30 October 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Disagree only on the Artemis. If you fire one launcher at a time with half a second between you'll get the same concentrated results as twin launchers with Artemis.

That's not what I've found, and you also don't get the faster locking, which can be a godsend.

But that's anecdotal on my end at least. (about the spread)

Edited by Bront, 30 October 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Koniving]

Compare: Stationary target.
Firing 1 LRM-15 at a target.
Firing 2 LRM-15s at a target.
Firing 2 LRM-15s with Artemis at a target.

Note: 1 LRM-15 is about as center-focused as 2 LRM-15s with Artemis, but 2 LRM-15s without Artemis get much more spread out.

Now chain fire 2 LRM-15s from different launchers. Watch their flight paths hit approximately the same spot instead of the "2 LRM-15 spread."

Want some real fun? Take mechs with 5 to 15 tubes max, and throw in a 20. Note that the fewer tubes it has, the more CT focused it is.

It's why I used to love the Victor as an LRM boat, every single LRM from the 2-tube launcher went CT and drained the enemy's AMS so bad that by the time I fired it 3 times the enemy is out of AMS ammo (and I only spent 45 LRMs to drain it!)

[Victor Morson]

Koniving, on 30 October 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Want some real fun? Take mechs with 5 to 15 tubes max, and throw in a 20. Note that the fewer tubes it has, the more CT focused it is.

It's why I used to love the Victor as an LRM boat, every single LRM from the 2-tube launcher went CT and drained the enemy's AMS so bad that by the time I fired it 3 times the enemy is out of AMS ammo (and I only spent 45 LRMs to drain it!)

My favorite is running an LRM/5 in the Narc Tube on the Treb 7M along with other launchers. It fires the entire LRM/5 as single missiles, which amusingly confuses the hell out of AMS - it will fire and fire and not hit more than 1 missile in the salvo. I used to back it with other LRMs of course, but thanks to the small size, it only lost about 1% DPS doing it that way.

I can't recommend it for serious play but it's amusing in pugs to fire a non-stop LRM rain.

Magnakanus, on 30 October 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

I tend to disagree here and strongly. Yes you do need a lot of things to make LRMs "worth the tonage", but within 180m you are defenseless and useless without a back-up weapon. I have gotten a few kills with my BLR-1S's medium lasers: sometimes it is a battered mech that has made it through the firing line and wants that "easy kill", other times it's a light on a strafe run, etc.

I would rather have a ton or two less ammo and the ability to be useful and supportive in the long AND short range than limiting myself to just long range. It often gets reduced to me firing LRMs at a long range target and giving support fire to team mates with my lasers at short range more or less at the same time.

This goes back to what I was saying about driving medium LRM boats over assaults. You may lack back up guns, but your defense is.. your team, and your speed. Even in a pug I often turn tail and move straight back into the main group if I get attacked, but make it back with most of my armor intact - the person chasing generally either breaks off (the smart thing) or charges head first into a firing line.

The bottom line is that it's better to, in a team game like this, focus on your role entirely - in particular when it's a role that takes so much out of you. That 3 tons spent on ML that could have been spent on more LRMs or 3 whole more tons of ammo is a huge deal that means literally hundreds of points of damage.

Koniving, on 30 October 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Compare: Stationary target.
Firing 1 LRM-15 at a target.
Firing 2 LRM-15s at a target.
Firing 2 LRM-15s with Artemis at a target.

Stationary is a key word here. The chain fire trick doesn't work on mobile 'mechs; I'm not convinced it works at all in the main game, either; testing grounds still has old code for missile trajectories and some damage values as of a couple patches ago.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 October 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Abivard]

LRM use changes so much and has so many exceptions that it would take pages for a comprehensive guide.

Each patch HAS affected LRM's in some way or another.

You must stay tuned to the pulse of what is really happening in matches and why.

Missile bay doors, many myths and urban legends abound but here is a Fact you haven't heard mentioned:

When your missiles with bay doors fire.. the doors stay OPEN while the launchers recycle and for a brief time after they have cycled.

[Abivard]

Awesome and centurions have to be the two worst mechs of the feasible LRM mechs. which is better between the two is rather Moot, as any other LRM mech is far better.