So does anyone know or have good speculation as to how clan tech and clan mechs will be introduced? Will clan techs/mechs be available to everyone like all standard techs/mechs? Or will they be available at a premium for non-clanners like houses, mercs, and the lone-wolfers and cheaper for clans? Or will they be exclusive to only clans?
A lot of clan stuff is pretty awesome and I'm sure that I'm not the only non-clanner that wants to use clan techs and mechs. I am assuming that clan mechs will be released sometime after the griffin and wolverine mechs.
Any insight and discussion is appreciated.
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Clan Tech Discussion
Started by ACTIONRAMBO, Oct 25 2013 10:24 PM
47 replies to this topic
#2
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:02 AM
Given how the hardpoint system allow IS mechs to have near omnimech utility I'm pretty sure at the very least clans will be able to add or remove lower arm articutators and change hardpoints.
If TT OmniMech Rules abide then you can't use articutated arm ballistics or swap out engines/internal structure/armor type or electronics which will limit the flexability on some of the faster Omnimechs like the timber wolf, which is bound to use a 375XL engine at 75 tons.
Beyond that there is not much we can speculate on really because the rest is all about equipment weight, damage and crit slots and heat.
If TT OmniMech Rules abide then you can't use articutated arm ballistics or swap out engines/internal structure/armor type or electronics which will limit the flexability on some of the faster Omnimechs like the timber wolf, which is bound to use a 375XL engine at 75 tons.
Beyond that there is not much we can speculate on really because the rest is all about equipment weight, damage and crit slots and heat.
Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 26 October 2013 - 04:03 AM.
#3
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- Overlord
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Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:07 AM
The ONLY things the community realls, firmly knows about the Clans is that they are not in the game yet, and they are coming SoonTM.
This is neither good nor bad, mind you, but it is very important to remember when one reads some of the "How to balance the clans" threads, be they sane or completely outlandish.
All of them are working entirely on assumption with regards to more or less everything but crit spaces and weight ( The devs are understandably loathe to adjust these becasue it could invalidate canon loadouts and cause huge issues moving forward.)
Many completely disregard that we already have numerous differences to TT, for example the completely different heat system. These factors will play a role in final balance.
Just as many assume mind boggling loadout possibilities that would make even the clans wonder how the hell all of that **** can even fit in a mech under 150 tons.
While I understand it`s partly hyperbole, if one uses the rules of TT as basis for argumentation, and then proceeds to alter the hardwired parts of an omnimech (ex. Dire wolf with 200XL and no lasers), for the purpose of putting on 4UAC20, it fails at making the point because it is arguing from both sides of hte fence at the same time and disregarding teh same rules one laid out as the basis for the argument.
That all said, some of the threads DO contain innovative or at least interesting ideas that may or may not be the golden arrow. But ao much of it is rooted in sensationalism and blind fear (or rage) that every time I see a clan balance thread, my immediate fiorst thought is "oh jeez, this **** again".. but I still read them to see if there`s something novel in there, which does occasionally happen and garner a like and /or response.
And there`s something about watching people dig for their IQ scores that is in fact mildly entertaining.
Some of what we assume to know /tidbits that have been dropped by the devs but we have no actual, solid proof:
Clans are planned for q1/2 2014(Tm)
A few clan mechs and weapons are already done
They have been working on balancing clans a significant period already
There will be no mixtech(Tm)
The devs have stated that they do NOT want to implement the clans as the unstoppable Boogeyman they were in TT.
Just about anything beyond that is complete spectulation, and as denoted by (Tm) almost nothing is set in stone.
This is neither good nor bad, mind you, but it is very important to remember when one reads some of the "How to balance the clans" threads, be they sane or completely outlandish.
All of them are working entirely on assumption with regards to more or less everything but crit spaces and weight ( The devs are understandably loathe to adjust these becasue it could invalidate canon loadouts and cause huge issues moving forward.)
Many completely disregard that we already have numerous differences to TT, for example the completely different heat system. These factors will play a role in final balance.
Just as many assume mind boggling loadout possibilities that would make even the clans wonder how the hell all of that **** can even fit in a mech under 150 tons.
While I understand it`s partly hyperbole, if one uses the rules of TT as basis for argumentation, and then proceeds to alter the hardwired parts of an omnimech (ex. Dire wolf with 200XL and no lasers), for the purpose of putting on 4UAC20, it fails at making the point because it is arguing from both sides of hte fence at the same time and disregarding teh same rules one laid out as the basis for the argument.
That all said, some of the threads DO contain innovative or at least interesting ideas that may or may not be the golden arrow. But ao much of it is rooted in sensationalism and blind fear (or rage) that every time I see a clan balance thread, my immediate fiorst thought is "oh jeez, this **** again".. but I still read them to see if there`s something novel in there, which does occasionally happen and garner a like and /or response.
And there`s something about watching people dig for their IQ scores that is in fact mildly entertaining.
Some of what we assume to know /tidbits that have been dropped by the devs but we have no actual, solid proof:
Clans are planned for q1/2 2014(Tm)
A few clan mechs and weapons are already done
They have been working on balancing clans a significant period already
There will be no mixtech(Tm)
The devs have stated that they do NOT want to implement the clans as the unstoppable Boogeyman they were in TT.
Just about anything beyond that is complete spectulation, and as denoted by (Tm) almost nothing is set in stone.
Edited by Zerberus, 26 October 2013 - 06:18 AM.
#4
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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:58 PM
we have like 100 similar threats about clans already... nothing is known, all is speculation... that would be all
#5
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- The Raider
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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:40 AM
ACTIONRAMBO, on 25 October 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:
So does anyone know or have good speculation as to how clan tech and clan mechs will be introduced? Will clan techs/mechs be available to everyone like all standard techs/mechs? Or will they be available at a premium for non-clanners like houses, mercs, and the lone-wolfers and cheaper for clans? Or will they be exclusive to only clans?
A lot of clan stuff is pretty awesome and I'm sure that I'm not the only non-clanner that wants to use clan techs and mechs. I am assuming that clan mechs will be released sometime after the griffin and wolverine mechs.
Any insight and discussion is appreciated.
A lot of clan stuff is pretty awesome and I'm sure that I'm not the only non-clanner that wants to use clan techs and mechs. I am assuming that clan mechs will be released sometime after the griffin and wolverine mechs.
Any insight and discussion is appreciated.
Bryan Ekman made that set of statements some time ago regarding Clan technology and its implementation in MWO in the first of the three parts of the interview by NGNG, from (approximately) the 36:30 mark to (approximately) the 38:20 mark.
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I'm going to say this right now, so that everybody can manage their expectations: We're not going to make the same mistake that was made for the last 30 years when it comes to introducing Clan technology into a BattleTech or MechWarrior project. IT WAS A MISTAKE - how powerful they were when they were first introduced - and it's something that I remember talking with [Jordan Weisman] about and him saying, "Wow... if I could take it back, I probably would; I'd probably change how they work, because it immediately invalidated an entire line of products and 'Mechs and content".
So, our approach to introducing Clan tech - which includes Double Heat Sinks and lasers and how equipment fits onto 'Mechs and OmniMechs - is we're going to look at it from the context of our game and inspired by what the intent was for Clan tech.
"Here is a superior force, coming back, that's going to lay waste to the Inner Sphere." But, we want to make sure those Inner Sphere players are able to compete, still. But the way the story was written, "it was through the valor of the Inner Sphere and the unification of the Inner Sphere that they were able to defeat the Clans, and overcome that superior tech."
We can't guarantee that our playerbase is going to be able to do that. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite - everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content - and we don't want that to happen. We want to be able to recreate what was described in that lore, but it's going to require us to change the mechanics and the exact BT... let's say, the numbers, to make sure that the players can actually try to achieve what happened in that canon.
- Bryan Ekman on Clan tech in MWO, from NGNG #88 (recorded Sept. 04, 2013)
So, our approach to introducing Clan tech - which includes Double Heat Sinks and lasers and how equipment fits onto 'Mechs and OmniMechs - is we're going to look at it from the context of our game and inspired by what the intent was for Clan tech.
"Here is a superior force, coming back, that's going to lay waste to the Inner Sphere." But, we want to make sure those Inner Sphere players are able to compete, still. But the way the story was written, "it was through the valor of the Inner Sphere and the unification of the Inner Sphere that they were able to defeat the Clans, and overcome that superior tech."
We can't guarantee that our playerbase is going to be able to do that. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite - everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content - and we don't want that to happen. We want to be able to recreate what was described in that lore, but it's going to require us to change the mechanics and the exact BT... let's say, the numbers, to make sure that the players can actually try to achieve what happened in that canon.
- Bryan Ekman on Clan tech in MWO, from NGNG #88 (recorded Sept. 04, 2013)
As it happens, Ekman's statements also echo those made by Randall Bills in the second Dev interview.
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MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?
RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.
Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.
RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.
Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.
If what Ekman is talking about is a more-but-not-completely "Billsian" approach for the MWO implementation of the Clans... that could prove to be interesting.
On the other hand, much of this information is now several weeks old, and PGI's stance could have changed (perhaps even substantially so) since then.
#6
Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:02 PM
Indeed, at this point it seems almost certain that Clan tech will not be the obscenely superior force multiplier it used to be. What is left are theorycrafting threads that attempt to think out how Clan tech can be unique, have its advantages to IS tech, while still being in balance with the pre-existing resources in the game. What happens are those who refuse to accept the likely reality of a "nerfed" Clan tech environment throw a stink in those threads and scream their heads off like it somehow invalidates the reason for Clan tech - though how something is nerfed before even being released is beyond me.
As a die hard clanner, do you know what I think about the reduction of Clan tech effectiveness?
"Good!"
Where is the so called honor of defeating foes who are in slower, poorer armed, shorter ranged, less maneuverable mechs? It seems so at odds with what the Clans seem to be based around. Personally, I am excited to see how PGI intends to reinvent the wheel, while keeping to the core values of what makes Clan "Clan."
As a die hard clanner, do you know what I think about the reduction of Clan tech effectiveness?
"Good!"
Where is the so called honor of defeating foes who are in slower, poorer armed, shorter ranged, less maneuverable mechs? It seems so at odds with what the Clans seem to be based around. Personally, I am excited to see how PGI intends to reinvent the wheel, while keeping to the core values of what makes Clan "Clan."
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 October 2013 - 02:03 PM.
#7
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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:36 PM
Pariah Devalis, on 27 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:
As a die hard clanner, do you know what I think about the reduction of Clan tech effectiveness?
"Good!"
Where is the so called honor of defeating foes who are in slower, poorer armed, shorter ranged, less maneuverable mechs? It seems so at odds with what the Clans seem to be based around. Personally, I am excited to see how PGI intends to reinvent the wheel, while keeping to the core values of what makes Clan "Clan."
I appreciate your sentiment - it is well said and done. It is also worth wrapping one's head around, though not for role play, but because it is consistent with what the development team has said about Clan tech, and also consistent with what they have relayed to us regarding conversations with R. Bills about the problems Clan technology has presented most of the video games, to date, and even the table top itself. Bills has given them the green light to rewrite Clan technology more in keeping with his vision of Clan society, the vision that did not come properly into fruition for the table top. And either Russ or Bryan (maybe both) have said it will be an interpretation of the rules for Clan technology.
#8
Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:45 PM
Now, having said that, there are a couple "fixed" (short of a total retcon, but community backlash might be severe) items about Clan tech that cannot effectively be messed with. Namely: Reduced crit slots and reduced item weight.
FF, ES, and XL Engines all use half the space of IS versions, and it would be difficult to change that, as it would immediately break all (or most) pre-existing Clan stock variants. DHS take two slots, not three, and that, like the other items above, cannot effectively be messed with lest it bork the stock variants. Clan weapons tend to take one less crit slot and weigh slightly less (or a lot less in the case of their missile systems). So there is already some things that you can bet on. Beyond these, however, it is up in the air.
What they CAN mess with include: Weapon damage, lack of LRM minimum range, heat generation, Clan XL engine durability in the face of a single side torso loss, and how "omni" is handled (or if it is even handled at all as a retcon can make Omni nonexistent in this version of Mechwarrior/battletech).
FF, ES, and XL Engines all use half the space of IS versions, and it would be difficult to change that, as it would immediately break all (or most) pre-existing Clan stock variants. DHS take two slots, not three, and that, like the other items above, cannot effectively be messed with lest it bork the stock variants. Clan weapons tend to take one less crit slot and weigh slightly less (or a lot less in the case of their missile systems). So there is already some things that you can bet on. Beyond these, however, it is up in the air.
What they CAN mess with include: Weapon damage, lack of LRM minimum range, heat generation, Clan XL engine durability in the face of a single side torso loss, and how "omni" is handled (or if it is even handled at all as a retcon can make Omni nonexistent in this version of Mechwarrior/battletech).
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 October 2013 - 02:46 PM.
#9
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Posted 27 October 2013 - 04:08 PM
i am going to laugh when your mad cat gets eared out of existence.
#10
Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:14 AM
Marack Drock, on 28 October 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:
I am going to laugh when your Atlas loses to a Black Hawk and Ryoken.
Why? They have one this for almost 30 years!
#11
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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:24 AM
Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:
Why? They have one this for almost 30 years!
i am going to laugh when your black hawk loses to a locust cause it can't torso twist.
#12
Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:35 AM
dal10, on 28 October 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:
i am going to laugh when your black hawk loses to a locust cause it can't torso twist.
Absolutely plausible. XD Interestingly, given the ranges of ERMLas, despite it using medium laser banks, the mech seems much better suited to a mid to longish range engagement profile (well, long by IS standards) just due to its squat target profile and disadvantage in a close turning fight.
#13
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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:25 AM
Pariah Devalis, on 27 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:
Personally, I am excited to see how PGI intends to reinvent the wheel, while keeping to the core values of what makes Clan "Clan."
This is all good and nice, but so far has PGI showed they can keep the core values of the lore at least, if not MechWarrior itself, quineg?
#15
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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:01 AM
Pariah Devalis, on 28 October 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:
Lore? I was under the impression PGI was creating an elaborate game of rock 'em sock 'em robots. 
Wh4t? Ya mean this isnt a shootshoot pew pew big robots game? Idon't mind wanna just shoot ppcs pew pew stomp stomp! @#!
And now you tell me there are over 100 books and a tabletop behind MWO?
#17
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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:35 PM
Pariah Devalis, on 28 October 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:
Thanks, man. Now I'm sad. I regret donating my entire Battletech novel collection to the public library system. 
I regret not having access to your country's public library system
#18
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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:47 PM
Marack Drock, on 28 October 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:
I am going to laugh when your Atlas loses to a Black Hawk and Ryoken.
on a side note, i don't pilot assault mechs as a rule. i much prefer 50-75 tonners. because they are fast enough to actually get places, but heavily armed and armored enough to survive a knockdown brawl.
I would use this over a nova.
Tanassi TAN-1A
Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3051
Cost: 13,405,633 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,623
Chassis: Terafoil Light Endo-Steel
Power Plant: VOX 280 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Planet Lifters
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: ArcShield V Standard Armor
Armament:
1 SarLon MaxiCannon Autocannon/10
2 Magna Mk III Large Lasers
1 Snorri LRM-10
3 Magna MK II Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Magic Mechwerks LLC.
Primary Factory: Detroit, Terra
Communications System: Nissan 200
Targeting and Tracking System: BlindFire
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 5 LA, 6 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 280 8.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 13(26) 3.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 200 12.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 31
Center Torso (rear) 8
L/R Torso 15 22
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 11 20
L/R Leg 15 26
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Medium Lasers RT 9 3 3.00
Autocannon/10 LT 3 7 12.00
LRM-10 RA 4 2 5.00
2 Large Lasers LA 16 4 10.00
@AC/10 (20) LT - 2 2.00
@LRM-10 (12) RA - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 16
4j 4 4 1 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1
#19
Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:25 AM
dal10, on 28 October 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:
i am going to laugh when your black hawk loses to a locust cause it can't torso twist.
I'd be in the
#20
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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:32 AM
locusts exist in significant numbers in all houses. so you would still be in a locust.
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