106 replies to this topic

[Black Lobo]

The half or 3/4 second "charge up" delay on the gauss. IMHO, the gauss "charge up" should be a part of the cycle time. When it was mentioned in canon that the gauss caused a massive "power drain" when fired, that was one of the few times that a book was truly scientifically inaccurate. Granted, the claim that ACs use DU rounds kind of makes sense, I think them using HEAP or even just HE rounds would make more sense in the long run. Hell, some people would complain that MGs are overpowered, but I think that the way they are now is way more accurate than previous MW games. Also, maybe adding recoil to the AC and Gauss usage would make some sense, since equal and opposite reactions and all that physics mumbo jumbo... (ELLIPSIS LIKE A BAMF)

[Bront]

Alistair Winter, on 27 October 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

You say the ER Laser is useless, but a some of the good light mech pilots seem to use it a lot these days. I've also seen people do well with the Orion carrying multiple ER Lasers. It does work well when you're pairing it with a cool weapon, like the AC5. Or the gentleman's Yen Lo Wang, a gauss and an ER Laser. I don't use the SPL, but I've had my light mechs chewed up by JR-F's with 6 SPL many times, so I wouldn't say they're useless.

The ERLL is good for a few situations:

1) The extra heat doesn't matter. Either because it's the only heat generating weapon, or you run cool enough otherwise to ignore it.

2) The extra range is exceptionally useful. Mounting on an LRM mech for example to augment the LRMs, or as a long range weapon to have something to fire at long range engagements.

For lights, you usually run into situation 1. For heavier mechs, it's often situation 2.

[Sandpit]

dymlos2003, on 26 October 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

So opinions are now fact?

are you new here? lol This has been the state of the forums for 2 years

[Black Lobo]

Fact: alcohol makes me a better pilot.

Fact: alcohol makes me a better pilot.

[East Indy]

If you make a game about what's best on paper, you'll never have any fun.

[Sandpit]

East Indy, on 27 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

If you make a game about what's best on paper, you'll never have any fun.

I don't think anyone disputes that but there has to be a balance. There has to be a point where it is stated ok we've made enough concessions to the casual gamer, we can go no further without completely alienating the gamers who enjoy the IP and TT game which is about the only reason they chose to play this game. Neither side can have all of what they want but some things are so drastically off course from the original IP that it no longer shares anything in common with the IP other than artwork.

[Steel Claws]

LRMs don't need more damage, they need to travel faster and have a flatter tragectory. What ever their travel speed is now, it needs to be about 15 - 20% faster. The slope needs to drop by about 5 - 10 degrees. Sure they sped them up once before but they also increased the loft at the same time - which nulified the speed increase.

[Black Lobo]

I'd rather they made a game based on real life physics. If you want, I can bore the schumer out of everyone by talking about present day ordnance and how the things in MWO/BT Universe should measure up. I'm just saying, there was already a pretty damn good model drawn up, based on real life physics. Besides, this is all really just based on mid 80's and 90's tech, peppered with some futuristic (but attainable) tech that might be along in the next 50-100 years. Call me crazy, but I can say that physics should be my friend, not some made up BS to make life easier for the kids with little to no grasp of tactics.

[Joseph Mallan]

MadCat02, on 26 October 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I have used and found every weapon effective at some point in MWO history . What happened ?

PGU "we are happy with the current state of weapon balancing "

State where most weapons are not worth bringing into the game ?


LRMS- lets have 3 upgrades just so there weapon works and maybe not even then !

Its funny that even with all bonuses LRMS still manage to miss targets with a lock-on .

People just poke lrm boaters from the cover and there nothing they can do about that .

LRMS still need more damage .

Missiles miss cause they are moving to slow by a factor of 10.

Quote

Medium Pulse Lasers- 1 DAMAGE WILL NEVER MAKE UP FOR 1 EXTRA TON, 1 HEAT and shorter range .Id rather shoot up to 540 meters than have 20% more damage for 100% more weight.


Don't give me that shorter duration {Scrap} . If you can apply damage faster you can miss it faster as well .

THEY WERE FINE AT 1.5 ton . HOW DID THEY GET NERFED!

They have been 2 tons, 5 Damage(IS only), 5 heat, and +2 to hit since they were introduced over 25 years ago, So why should they be changed now?

Quote

LBX10-Do you think i care when people shoot me with LBX10 at 400 meters? Well i don't because they will run out of bullets if i don't come closer .

Though I have never seen it in a MW title LB-Xs have a solid slug and canister shot. We need Slugs!

Quote

ER PPC- the problem with ER PPCs is that even 2 don't leave enough heat gauge to use other weapons .

2ER PPC+4 mediums . Runs too hot
2ER PPC+SRMS . Not practical Runs too hot

2ER PPC+2 AC 2 or 2 AC5. Not practical . Runs too hot and weights too much
Keep ghost heat but reduce ER PPC heat .

This is an issue with how PGI runs heat not the weapon itself.

Quote

Machineguns,Flamer,Small Pulse Laser- I don't know what to say because medium laser is always a better choice .

I have always used these for more armor, sinks, equipment.

Quote

AC10- Its kinda like a middle child between Gauss and AC20 that isn't good at any role.

That's like saying an M-16 isn't worth bringing cause a S.A.W. and a Glock are better at each end!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 October 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[l33tworks]

I dont know what you guys are talking about "useless weapons" But I'll take on anyone in my 1 x Machine gun, 1 x Small pulse Laser, 1 xmedium pulse Laser, 1 xSmall laser, 1x Flamer, 1x Narc ATLAS and pwn you!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c926f28bcaaec0e

[Farix]

Sandpit, on 27 October 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I don't think anyone disputes that but there has to be a balance. There has to be a point where it is stated ok we've made enough concessions to the casual gamer, we can go no further without completely alienating the gamers who enjoy the IP and TT game which is about the only reason they chose to play this game. Neither side can have all of what they want but some things are so drastically off course from the original IP that it no longer shares anything in common with the IP other than artwork.

But exactly what IS balance? What metric do you determine that something it balanced? The thing is, many players use how popular or unpopular a weapons is to determine whether it is "balanced". However, that is not a very good metric to us as it is based on personal preference, not on mathematics. Another standard some use is whether they personally would use a particular weapon. Using this logic, since I have a preference for auto cannons, most energy weapons would be "unbalanced" because I don't use them.

Balance should not be determined on whether all weapons are equally useful in all areas. That is never going to happen. You have to look at the role each weapon is intended to fill. Some weapons, like the Medium Laser and AC/5 are general purpose weapons. You will naturally see them the most. Other weapons, such as the LB 10-X are specialty weapons that do well in a particular niche role, but not so well in other roles.

[Joseph Mallan]

Farix, on 28 October 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

But exactly what IS balance? What metric do you determine that something it balanced?

Energy Weapons
Medium Laser=Base
Small Laser 60% of Base
Medium Pulse Laser 120% of Base damage
Large Laser 160% of Base
Large Pulse Laser 180% of Base damage
PPC 200% of base

Energy weapons balanced!

Ballistic Weapons
AC5= Base Weapon

AC2 40% of Base
Ultra5 175% of Base (factoring recoil)
AC10 200% of base
LB-X10 Make equal to LRM10 results but factor for 1.0 damage per pellet
Gauss 300% base damage
AC20 400% Base damage

Damage balanced.

LRM
LRM 5=Base Damage
LRM10 200% Base damage
LRM15 300% of base damage
LRM20 400% of Base damage

LRMs balances

SRM2=Base Damage
SRM4 200% base damage
SRM6 300% base damage

LRMs balanced

Streak SRM
Apply a reset to target lock to fire each salvo, Unless crosshairs are maintained directly on target. Also have Lock decay similar to Gauss charge hold. But 2-3 times longer.

[B1zmark]

AC/20 is the best weapon in the game for a number of reasons. The fact that it's very difficult to fit is the only reason EVERYONE doesn't use it.

I'd also like to argue the MPL point - i've used ML's and MPL's on the same mech, adding only 2 heatsinks to make up the lost weight. Even with more shots before overheat, i consistently do more damage with MPL's than with ML's in 90% of matches. The speed at which is applies the damage is fundamental.

[B1zmark]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

Energy Weapons
Medium Laser=Base
Small Laser 60% of Base
Medium Pulse Laser 120% of Base damage
Large Laser 160% of Base
Large Pulse Laser 180% of Base damage
PPC 200% of base

Energy weapons balanced!

Ballistic Weapons
AC5= Base Weapon

AC2 40% of Base
Ultra5 175% of Base (factoring recoil)
AC10 200% of base
LB-X10 Make equal to LRM10 results but factor for 1.0 damage per pellet
Gauss 300% base damage
AC20 400% Base damage

Damage balanced.

LRM
LRM 5=Base Damage
LRM10 200% Base damage
LRM15 300% of base damage
LRM20 400% of Base damage

LRMs balances

SRM2=Base Damage
SRM4 200% base damage
SRM6 300% base damage

LRMs balanced

Streak SRM
Apply a reset to target lock to fire each salvo, Unless crosshairs are maintained directly on target. Also have Lock decay similar to Gauss charge hold. But 2-3 times longer.

If you ignore heat, range, ammo, refire, duration, slots and tonnage, then yes: All weapons are balanced. :|

[Joseph Mallan]

B1zmark, on 28 October 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

If you ignore heat, range, ammo, refire, duration, slots and tonnage, then yes: All weapons are balanced. :|

Sorry but the more damage the heavier the weapon and more heat it will generate... Balanced. The bigger the weapon the more Ammo it will consume... Balanced! The heavier the weapon the more slots it uses... Balanced! Sometimes a Rose is just a Rose!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 October 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Im sorry but machine guns are very effective, its actually the weapon I enjoy the most. Both my spider 5k and my hunchback have very good results.

[B1zmark]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Sorry but the more damage the heavier the weapon and more heat it will generate... Balanced. The bigger the weapon the more Ammo it will consume... Balanced! The heavier the weapon the more slots it uses... Balanced! Sometimes a Rose is just a Rose!

Heat and heat per second are entirely different
Damage and damage per second are entirely different
Damage per ton
Ghost heat
Alpha penalties.

You skipped some of the most important stats. For example an AC/2 has the best damage per ton of all the Autocannons, but people still use 2 AC/2 and 2x AC/5 for a good reason, instead of 4xAC/2

AC2's also do more DPS than an AC/5, but less than an AC/10.... so many things to consider that you've skipped over.

[Joseph Mallan]

B1zmark, on 28 October 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Heat and heat per second are entirely different
Damage and damage per second are entirely different
Damage per ton
Ghost heat
Alpha penalties.

You skipped some of the most important stats. For example an AC/2 has the best damage per ton of all the Autocannons, but people still use 2 AC/2 and 2x AC/5 for a good reason, instead of 4xAC/2

AC2's also do more DPS than an AC/5, but less than an AC/10.... so many things to consider that you've skipped over.

I didn't skip it, I balanced it. What is being done in MW:O Isn't good balance. Balance does not always mean X=Y!
Plain an simple a single medium lasers should not be equal to an AC20 or even an AC10.

I could effectively care less about DpS. DpS is only a thing that lasers need to worry about. Cause when the firing stops a Medium laser does up to 5 damage and my Medium lasers average 3.5 damage per trigger pull but my AC20 is right on 20 per shot like it should. Damage per ton is not a factor cause you need to accept that bigger weapons can hit harder when damage is front loaded. Ghost heat only affects one build of mine and that is only because players cannot handle powerful, heat efficient builds!

There is such a thing as over thinking and a lot of the players have been doing just that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Missiles miss cause they are moving to slow by a factor of 10.

That's like saying an M-16 isn't worth bringing cause a S.A.W. and a Glock are better at each end!

Totally agree on the Missile speed. BUT, I feel they would need a significant cooldown period to compensate otherwise, as the amount of time and difficulty to maintain locks would be drastically reduced, thus ridiculously OP-ing an already situationally powerful weapon. (Which is what LRMs are supposed to be) I think that they would have to land in the Gauss cooldown range with signifigantly faster projectile speed.

[Sandpit]

Farix, on 28 October 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

But exactly what IS balance? What metric do you determine that something it balanced? The thing is, many players use how popular or unpopular a weapons is to determine whether it is "balanced". However, that is not a very good metric to us as it is based on personal preference, not on mathematics. Another standard some use is whether they personally would use a particular weapon. Using this logic, since I have a preference for auto cannons, most energy weapons would be "unbalanced" because I don't use them.

Balance should not be determined on whether all weapons are equally useful in all areas. That is never going to happen. You have to look at the role each weapon is intended to fill. Some weapons, like the Medium Laser and AC/5 are general purpose weapons. You will naturally see them the most. Other weapons, such as the LB 10-X are specialty weapons that do well in a particular niche role, but not so well in other roles.

I'm not arguing that. I am merely pointing out that people get owned by something and immediately jump on here calling for heads to roll. Then they find a few others who agree with them and start a "crusade" to get it "fixed". Too many people want an easy button