398 replies to this topic

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 01 November 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

so says the man who used the percentage in his post

You honestly believe 93% of the population is opposed to 3PV?

[Sandpit]

You believe 93% WANTS 3pv? Show me the factual proof of 93% since that is the number you chose to use

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 01 November 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

You believe 93% WANTS 3pv? Show me the factual proof of 93% since that is the number you chose to use

I believe 93% of the population doesn't care. Source: The 93% of the population (actually higher than that, but let's not quibble) that didn't vote in the self-selected poll.

[TychoTheItinerant]

Heffay, on 01 November 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I believe 93% of the population doesn't care. Source: The 93% of the population (actually higher than that, but let's not quibble) that didn't vote in the self-selected poll.

False equivalence ahoy.

"They didn't vote, so they must not care!"

[fil5000]

Heffay, on 01 November 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I believe 93% of the population doesn't care. Source: The 93% of the population (actually higher than that, but let's not quibble) that didn't vote in the self-selected poll.

Come on now Heffay, you can't use the SRM and 12 man 3PV votes for examples of something but disqualify the other polls about 3PV. That's intellectually dishonest and you know it.

[MustrumRidcully]

fil5000, on 01 November 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Come on now Heffay, you can't use the SRM and 12 man 3PV votes for examples of something but disqualify the other polls about 3PV. That's intellectually dishonest and you know it.

Of course he does, but it riles people up anyway.

[Sandpit]

for someone who is always harping on others about fact versus opinion and data versus anecdotal evidence you sure are quick to do the same Heffay. You throw around fictitious numbers just as much as anyone else. It's a bit hypocritical sir

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 01 November 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

for someone who is always harping on others about fact versus opinion and data versus anecdotal evidence you sure are quick to do the same Heffay. You throw around fictitious numbers just as much as anyone else. It's a bit hypocritical sir

To be honest, I just use the logical fallacies to highlight everyone else's hypocrisy, as you mention. But let's be honest: Nobody cares about 3PV. It turned out to be no big deal after all, as a number of the most vocal critics of it are now sporting their fancy Overlord badges. You're just arguing 3PV out of momentum and mock outrage, not because there are any real issues with it. It's a dog whistle. A red herring.

It's absolutely nothing.

Edited by Heffay, 01 November 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[Cimarb]

I don't think there is any issue with 3PV itself, other than it sucks IMO, but the communication about it was definitely horrible and no sensible person can deny that. Complain about what the actual problem is, though, not the symptom. 3PV is the symptom; one of many symptoms of the actual problem: PGI communication.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 01 November 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

for someone who is always harping on others about fact versus opinion and data versus anecdotal evidence you sure are quick to do the same Heffay. You throw around fictitious numbers just as much as anyone else. It's a bit hypocritical sir

It's worse than that.

It's kinda like the age old sports argument that a small minority would say "Coach X sucks". He is usually successful and probably the most winning coach that the team has for a long period of time. There could be this one year that he has a down year, and suddenly that guy's argument becomes true.

It's very similar to this situation.

Sure, 3PV is still an issue (one way or another) and to say that "3PV is fine" is a fallacy. It is not unreasonable to expect that over time as 3PV is still here and no separate 1PV/3PV queues are not implemented that 1PV supporters eventually leave. Naturally, there would be some equilibrium that would suggest that "3PV is fine" becomes "true"... but the number of people that support this game financially will very likely have decreased and changed since the beginning.

So, eventually Heffay will be right, but it's also fairly possible that this game would be in survival mode in some form for a bit if things continue the way they are going.

[Jetfire]

PC Gamer gave GTA 4 a 92. This was a fully polished AAA release.
PC Gamer gave MWO an 83. This was a core game lacking anything but the basic combat content and some cosmetic content.

If GTA 4 released with only the open world multiplayer, but no story, just cars, guns and half of the city. Would it have only had 9 points taken off? The words PC gamer uses are completely accurate, but they are being extremely kind to PGI. You could argue it is not a AAA title and it is F2P so you can't use the same expectations and maybe that is true, but it still feels off.

[Araara]

Heffay, on 01 November 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

[size=4]

To be honest, I just use the logical fallacies to highlight everyone else's hypocrisy, as you mention. But let's be honest: Nobody cares about 3PV. It turned out to be no big deal after all, as a number of the most vocal critics of it are now sporting their fancy Overlord badges. You're just arguing 3PV out of momentum and mock outrage, not because there are any real issues with it. It's a dog whistle. A red herring.

It's absolutely nothing.

I'm sorry? 1PV view only for 12 man was a great success to how the community cared (at least the competitive side one) about it. Seeing as community warfare will be based on 12 man (for the most part, i think, at least for mercs), I don't see how you can qualify that as "turned out to be no big deal after all".


PGI did a good move by limiting 12 man to 1PV-only. That's why people don't debate about it that much now. Puggers are happy, premades are happy.

[Cimarb]

Deathlike, on 01 November 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

It's worse than that.

It's kinda like the age old sports argument that a small minority would say "Coach X sucks". He is usually successful and probably the most winning coach that the team has for a long period of time. There could be this one year that he has a down year, and suddenly that guy's argument becomes true.

It's very similar to this situation.

Sure, 3PV is still an issue (one way or another) and to say that "3PV is fine" is a fallacy. It is not unreasonable to expect that over time as 3PV is still here and no separate 1PV/3PV queues are not implemented that 1PV supporters eventually leave. Naturally, there would be some equilibrium that would suggest that "3PV is fine" becomes "true"... but the number of people that support this game financially will very likely have decreased and changed since the beginning.

So, eventually Heffay will be right, but it's also fairly possible that this game would be in survival mode in some form for a bit if things continue the way they are going.

This is very true, and applies to both sides of the coin. That is exactly why I said in another thread that it was like a debate about politics. Neither side is going to admit they are wrong, but as soon as some small part eventually does happen like they have predicted, it is going to validate their entire platform. It's stupid.

Eventually, either next month or, more likely, years down the road, the game is going to end. No game is immortal. Does that mean it was a failure, though? That is totally in the eyes of the beholder and dependent on whether the fun it brought outweighed the frustration it caused. Many people think Everquest was an amazing game - I found very little enjoyment in it, so I disagree. GTA V may be a blockbuster success in the majority's eyes, but it failed miserably to even interest me. MWO, on the other hand, may not get the same lavish reviews, but I am enjoying my time playing it and have dumped way more money than my wife likes into it, so I believe it is a success, at least to me. I may not be able to convince you, Sandpit, or whoever else is currently unhappy of that, but in all honesty, I'm not trying to - if you enjoy it, great! If not, just allow us to enjoy it without all the insults and arguing.

[Golfin Man]

It's funny that this is the second time this game has "Launched," and it still feels incomplete. Let us pray PGI gives up and hands this beloved franchise over to a more competent developer

[Cimarb]

Golfin Man, on 01 November 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

It's funny that this is the eight-millionth time this game has been criticized and yet people are still enjoying it. Let us pray I give up and hand this beloved franchise over to more competent players

You had a couple typos, so I fixed it for you - no thanks needed

Edited by Cimarb, 01 November 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Cimarb, on 01 November 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

You had a couple typos, so I fixed it for you - no thanks needed

Did you also fix the PG gamer score as well.
Only a {Noble MechWarrior} cant see the issues with this game. 73/100 i could see, not 83/100
sorry but this game could have rivaled EVE.... anyone know what it scored ten years ago.

[TychoTheItinerant]

Heffay, you might want to get some hygienic tissue for your nose.

[Sandpit]

Quote

To be honest, I just use the logical fallacies to highlight everyone else's hypocrisy, as you mention. But let's be honest: Nobody cares about 3PV. It turned out to be no big deal after all, as a number of the most vocal critics of it are now sporting their fancy Overlord badges. You're just arguing 3PV out of momentum and mock outrage, not because there are any real issues with it. It's a dog whistle. A red herring.

First and foremost, you were the one bringing the entire scenario. You threw out the 93%, merely called you on it. You seem to be mistaking a forced acceptance as something else entirely. If you want to play the game you MUST accept 3pv, there's no choice in it. Again, you are misrepresenting a lot of things here. Just because a player buys a new package of mechs does NOT mean they are happy with 3pv.

Since you are so big on statistics and fallacies you SHOULD know that you cannot prove a direct correlation between PP purchases and "happiness" or even "being content" with 3pv. That is a completely spurious relationship. If you're going to push for unbiased and factual representation of evidence and statistics then hold yourself to the same standard.

If an extremely thirsty person wants a pepsi to drink but is forced to drink water because that is the only drink being offered, just because they take and drink the water does not mean they don't still want a pepsi.

The only reason I even bring any of this up is because all you seem to do is attempt to discredit other posts and players, yet you do the exact same thing. You obviously have some training when it comes to statistics and being a statistician so you use that experience to attempt to discredit others. The problem is you're extremely hypocritical as you give the same kind of evidence and statements as the posts you try to tear down. You're not the only one that understands statistics sir, I am just calling you out the same as you seem to do to anyone who says anything negative or criticizes PGI or this game. If you're going to call out others for fallacies you might want to correct your own first sir.

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 01 November 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

You obviously have some training when it comes to statistics and being a statistician so you use that experience to attempt to discredit others. The problem is you're extremely hypocritical as you give the same kind of evidence and statements as the posts you try to tear down. You're not the only one that understands statistics sir, I am just calling you out the same as you seem to do to anyone who says anything negative or criticizes PGI or this game. If you're going to call out others for fallacies you might want to correct your own first sir.

Well, what should I do when people keep using a self-selected poll and try to apply it to the general population? Help me out here. You know it's wrong. Why do people keep using the "90% of the population is opposed to 3PV" and refer to those clearly flawed polls as proof?

[Sandpit]

Discounting a poll where thousands of players voted is a fallacy in itself 90%? Doubt it, but that is a huge number for a poll on these forums. You know as well as I do that a vote of that magnitude represents a huge outcry from the community. It isn't 90% but we also know that a vote result of that magnitude and with such a lopsided vote distribution (I don't remember the exact numbers but I remember that those voting no on 3pv outnumbered the yes votes by thousands) shows that a majority of the player base did not want it.

Call people out on fallacies when they post stuff like that but don't introduce your own fallacy and bias as a defense if that's exactly what you're going to call others out on is all I'm saying. You and I disagree on a LOT of things but I still respect your opinions, even though I don't agree with them.

Trust me it's not just "one side" that trolls or makes ludicrous claims.

3pv is not accepted so much as you don' have a choice in the matter (which as also promised but that's another debate for another day). I still support the game out of my love for the Btech PI and because I love my robot warfare. This isn't, in my opinion, the best are greatest iteration of that IP but it is an iteration. Just because I buy things and spend money on it doesn't mean I agree with PGI's decisions sometimes. It means I like to pew pew pew and this is my only choice. I voice my opinion on things an give ideas and suggestions in the hopes that some of it might get heard and implemented or when I feel the devs make a bad decision they might understand why myself, and other like-minded players, didn't like it.