37 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

So I was going through my own (admittedly very low video quality) footage looking for instances where Spider hit damage was either registering or not registering until I ran into a problem: I could barely find any Spiders in any of my games.

Out of more than 8 hours of my own footage, I've found 7 Spiders total on opposing teams. I may have missed a few, but I tried to pick out every single one that I either fired at or saw was fired upon. They were practically non-existent in 12-man games. This is from PUG play only (both lone wolf and grouped):


Went down very quick under fire

Ballistic shot registered

Shot registered and it went down instantly

One alpha may or may not have registered, but the next alpha definitely did, and it still went down quickly

There were probably some hitreg problems, but the shots that I didn't just swipe by did seem to register

I encounter a Spider and proceed to ignore it. I get stuck on a wall before I decide to fire at the Spider, and it goes down

Got hit by a quick snapshot from a ballistic

So out of the 7 Spiders encountered in 8 hours of games (low approximation of 48 games, high approximation of 80 games), 2 times was there evidence of a possible hitreg problem, but neither time had that hitreg problem be persistent. None of those games had that Spider be a significant factor in the outcome of the game.

I wanted to have a record of both working Spider hit reg and problematic Spider hit reg (instead of isolated occurrences of either), but I literally could not encounter enough Spiders to have a conclusion.

The games were in my Medium (which I'm average at) and my Light (which I think I'm better at), so it was at two different elo levels.

Are there really that many groups of Spiders going around winning every game they play in? Are there really that many Spiders that tie up teams for minutes and go on to single-handedly carry their team to victory?

Edited by Krivvan, 27 October 2013 - 01:02 AM.

[MaxStr]

I just watched a game where a spider was the only member left on our team vs a K2 and a C1. He was way too noob to get within the min range of the LRM mech and just stood still shooting his ER Laser at it. After about 4m of constant LRM volleys hitting him, the other catapult joined in and started firing what looked like AC20 rounds at him. This of course had little to no effect and resulted in the spider moving behind cover briefly, and later finishing off the C1. He never moved within min range or attempted to dodge the LRMs...so frustrating to watch. He then two shot the AC20 mech (previously damaged critically I assume, reason why it took so long to help).

Not sure what LRMs the enemy mech was packing since he was never targeted but I am guessing a minimum of 30 a volley. What really drives me nuts outside of the obvious balance issues is that the spider pilot thought he was so pro at the end. I can't even begin to imagine how much faster he would have destroyed them if he targeted/aimed and how little if any damage he would have taken if he maneuvered or at least moved at all. That spiders and locusts exist in the same game in such a state has to be some sort of sick joke.


Sidenote: I doubt a different mech changes your ELO, that would be kind of silly. I sure wish ELO was public knowledge like a real esports game, for a grind game it caters far too much to casuals.

Edited by MaxKarnage, 27 October 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[Krivvan]

MaxKarnage, on 27 October 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Sidenote: I doubt a different mech changes your ELO, that would be kind of silly. I sure wish ELO was public knowledge like a real esports game, for a grind game it caters far too much to casuals.

Elo is specific to the mech weight class.

I do find it funny though that one of the only times I may have experienced the hit reg problem was when the Spider was standing still.

It usually worked just fine when it was moving.

MaxKarnage, on 27 October 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

I just watched a game where a spider was the only member left on our team vs a K2 and a C1. He was way too noob to get within the min range of the LRM mech and just stood still shooting his ER Laser at it. After about 4m of constant LRM volleys hitting him, the other catapult joined in and started firing what looked like AC20 rounds at him. This of course had little to no effect and resulted in the spider moving behind cover briefly, and later finishing off the C1. He never moved within min range or attempted to dodge the LRMs...so frustrating to watch. He then two shot the AC20 mech (previously damaged critically I assume, reason why it took so long to help).

All I can say is that I've never seen anything like that. And I have all my games recorded, so I can't BS when I say that.

[Corwin Vickers]

LIES! Clearly spiders are magic.

12 of them regularly drop together because PGI loves spiders and hacked the matchmaker to put them together.

They never die because they are invincible. I shot one with my 6AC 20 Jaeger and it didn't die.

[Ecto Cooler]

Props to OP who is attempting to gather real information about if Spider hitboxes are actually broken instead of creating another tear induced post of anecdotal evidence.

Edited by Ecto Cooler, 27 October 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Black Ivan]

Finally somebody who really tries to prove that Spiders have a problem

[MaxStr]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

Elo is specific to the mech weight class.

I do find it funny though that one of the only times I may have experienced the hit reg problem was when the Spider was standing still.

It usually worked just fine when it was moving.

I was going to start recording but I figured it was too late. It really shocked me since I always assumed the issues with hit registration were a result of a 'lag shield' while they were moving fast as I've seen this in a lot of similar games. Maybe its an issue with the weapons (I know LRMs aren't an effective anti-light weapon anyways), a lot of the hit boxes of bullets/beams are quite large. Or perhaps just a hitbox issue because of their size, I don't have the tools that PGI has to check though and its not my job to make guesses to fix the game. I felt bad for the Catapults since I couldn't think of anyway they had a chance of winning which while not necessarily unbalanced on its own was kinda unfortunate and would not be a fun experience.

I've had more issues with Jenners than Spiders this month personally, but I've gotten really good at pretending to be that assault that doesn't know what they are doing, letting them get in a few shots while moving like a whale on purpose to keep them near long enough to SSRM em or AC their legs in a volley or two. Jenners are the larger threat overall to me as I tend to play bigger mechs and they put out more punch and tend to travel in packs. Not that I go out of my way to engage lights a lot, I'm curious to hear what light players vs lights have to say.

Edited by MaxKarnage, 27 October 2013 - 02:07 AM.

[Krivvan]

MaxKarnage, on 27 October 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

I've had more issues with Jenners than Spiders this month personally, but I've gotten really good at pretending to be that assault that doesn't know what they are doing, letting them get in a few shots while moving like a whale on purpose to keep them near long enough to SSRM em or AC their legs in a volley or two. Jenners are the larger threat overall to me as I tend to play bigger mechs and they put out more punch and tend to travel in packs. Not that I go out of my way to engage lights a lot, I'm curious to hear what light players vs lights have to say.

There was a time long ago in closed beta where mechs that were not moving or shut down actually had massive hit registration issues because the server had them standing still in a slightly different location than they showed up on client.

The problem with that strategy is that it relies on you being in an Assault that turns fast enough and/or a Light that will make a mistake like that. That or you actually are screwed for real if a lance of Lights happens upon you.

Fighting other lights using a streak light is pretty simple since I get to focus most of my attention on movement rather than sacrificing it for aiming. When I'm in a laser light against a streak light I'll focus all my attention on losing it while breaking LOS as much as possible and bringing it closer to where my team is.

It's when it's a laser light versus another laser light that I'd actually notice any hit reg issues. Jenners don't exhibit issues at all from my experience. Every shot I put on it has the expected outcome. I go for Raven legs so I can never be 100% certain whether there was a hit reg issue or if I just missed most of the damage. Same thing goes for Spiders. But my main observation is that in my experience it was never enough of an issue to actually influence the outcome of a duel or game. If there was a missed shot, it was usually only ever a one time or seldom time occurrence.

[Training Instructor]

Your spider experience depends on your ping and their ping.

If you're playing during North American prime time, you've probably got a good ping, and so do most of the spiders you come across. Your hits are actually registering because you have low ping and their ping isn't high enough for the server to misreport their location.

I live in Moscow, Russia and typically play with a 140-180 ping. I've got massive problems with getting hits to register on spiders. Their armor flashes, but they often take no damage. The week previous, I shot a slowly moving spider with 5xmed lasers and 2xSRM6 multiple times and nothing happened to him. I also shot a stationary spider in the leg 4 times with a large laser and nothing happened to him. I have fraps, but I don't routinely make videos anymore because I'm almost out of harddrive space, due to the sheer volume of homemade erotic videos sent to me by the sisters, wives, and mothers of the mechwarriors I kill.

This past week I brought the gaming laptop I always play on to NYC for a business trip. In my hotel, I was playing with 16-30 ping. There was a huge difference in my accuracy across the board, because my hits almost always registered. I found that it wasn't just spiders I was having issues with: my Moscow connection robs me of shots against other mechs as well. Where before I had begun to doubt my accuracy, playing on a low ping connection demonstrated that the game has a huge accuracy problem, not me. Some matches I'm a terrible aim, it happens, but most of the time it's the game engine misreporting player locations to me, and then not registering the damage because I'm firing at air. HSR works occasionally, but it's terriby inconsistent, like most of the coding work done by this company.

Edited by Training Instructor, 27 October 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[Krivvan]

Training Instructor, on 27 October 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Your spider experience depends on your ping and their ping.

If you're playing during North American prime time, you've probably got a good ping, and so do most of the spiders you come across. Your hits are actually registering because you have low ping and their ping isn't high enough for the server to misreport their location.

I live in Moscow, Russia and typically play with a 140-180 ping. I've got massive problems with getting hits to register on spiders. Their armor flashes, but they often take no damage.

I don't doubt this, and I agree that regional servers would be ideal (and they are a goal, only question is when that will actually manifest). But many complaints about Spiders are from people who say that their connection should not be an issue, or that it is a problem with the Spider's hitbox itself rather than HSR or any other network related issues. There are also complaints that the Spider has become a domineering force and that it is akin to cheating to use one.

I'm quite skeptical of the latter complaints, but the former is something that I could at least give my experience on as a NA player that has a <100 ms ping.

I do sometimes play at odd NA hours (4-7 am my time) with games mainly populated by Europeans (and I guess Aussies and Asians as well), but I haven't tried comparing results between games from those times and games from NA prime times.

[New Day]

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=aJYTeKspmIk
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=N-qab_iBB2w
http://www.twitch.tv..._bill/c/3100317

[Wispsy]

NamesAreStupid, on 27 October 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...8;v=aJYTeKspmIk
http://www.youtube.c...8;v=N-qab_iBB2w
http://www.twitch.tv..._bill/c/3100317

Ok but you can link things like that about every mech right now...

Yesterday I shot an ac40 jagermech three times with 6xmedlas AND HE TOOK ZERO DAMAGE! With medlas...not even ballistic. I think tried to shoot at a stood still battlemaster, after dumping a whole heat bar and a coolant flush into him and seein my crosshairs go red and his paper doll flash he still had yellow armour everywhere, not even orange on one place and I was shooting direct ct.


Edit: you know what else I saw the other day? I had died and was watching a friend who had got stuck. An atlas walked up close to him and stood still, he then proceeded to shoot, hitting my friend ct. my friend lines up the obviously cockpit shot and fires... However he only lined up the cockpit shot on his screen...on mine it was shooting the edge of the shoulder barely hitting the arm, and this is where server counted it. So my friend died shooting at a stood still mechs cockpit because it was actually just scraping his arm. I believe desync like this could be a big reason for things like this. People are simply not where they say.


Last night there was some guy streaming his first time playing MWO. I think he was called some variation on unphazed. He found a raven that must have been running no more then 80kph, maybe less. He stood directly behind him and to the side and repeatedly shot him with clean shots to legs and ct. the reticle went red, the paper doll flashed. The raven took zero damage in 30-60 seconds of constant firing.

Edited by Wispsy, 27 October 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

[New Day]

Wispsy, on 27 October 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Ok but you can link things like that about every mech right now...

Yesterday I shot an ac40 jagermech three times with 6xmedlas AND HE TOOK ZERO DAMAGE! With medlas...not even ballistic. I think tried to shoot at a stood still battlemaster, after dumping a whole heat bar and a coolant flush into him and seein my crosshairs go red and his paper doll flash he still had yellow armour everywhere, not even orange on one place and I was shooting direct ct.


Edit: you know what else I saw the other day? I had died and was watching a friend who had got stuck. An atlas walked up close to him and stood still, he then proceeded to shoot, hitting my friend ct. my friend lines up the obviously cockpit shot and fires... However he only lined up the cockpit shot on his screen...on mine it was shooting the edge of the shoulder barely hitting the arm, and this is where server counted it. So my friend died shooting at a stood still mechs cockpit because it was actually just scraping his arm. I believe desync like this could be a big reason for things like this. People are simply not where they say.


Last night there was some guy streaming his first time playing MWO. I think he was called some variation on unphazed. He found a raven that must have been running no more then 80kph, maybe less. He stood directly behind him and to the side and repeatedly shot him with clean shots to legs and ct. the reticle went red, the paper doll flashed. The raven took zero damage in 30-60 seconds of constant firing.

not for me. Not at as much as spiders at least

[Wispsy]

NamesAreStupid, on 27 October 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

not for me. Not at as much as spiders at least

Have you tried recording it like Krivvan?
If everybody shows 8 hours of gameplay and how many issues with spiders they had in it (and preferably how many issues with other mechs too), we could get a much more accurate idea about what exactly is causing the problems i.e. ping, packetloss, desync, convergence etc. Else why is anybody going to trust your anecdotal evidence...just as you do not trust mine.

You know what is really weird. I was watching LethalRose stream last night and a mech standing still in the tunnel, not clipping on any nearby mechs, on Crimson Strait flickered and vanished for a moment...like a ghost. It was some heavy or assault mech too, not a spider.

[Mehlan]

NamesAreStupid, on 27 October 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=aJYTeKspmIk
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=N-qab_iBB2w
http://www.twitch.tv..._bill/c/3100317

and I give you...





as others have said and pointed out, it is not just the spider that demonstrates 'lost' damage, further we have statements from PGI in regards to ballistic weapons & srms.

[New Day]

Wispsy, on 27 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Have you tried recording it like Krivvan?
If everybody shows 8 hours of gameplay and how many issues with spiders they had in it (and preferably how many issues with other mechs too), we could get a much more accurate idea about what exactly is causing the problems i.e. ping, packetloss, desync, convergence etc. Else why is anybody going to trust your anecdotal evidence...just as you do not trust mine.

You know what is really weird. I was watching LethalRose stream last night and a mech standing still in the tunnel, not clipping on any nearby mechs, on Crimson Strait flickered and vanished for a moment...like a ghost. It was some heavy or assault mech too, not a spider.

I don't really care to do that. I have low enough FPS as is and don't fancy playing a PowerPoint presentation.

that last thing happened to me too with an enemy atlas (first time today). Never seen it before.

Mehlan, on 27 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

and I give you...





as others have said and pointed out, it is not just the spider that demonstrates 'lost' damage, further we have statements from PGI in regards to ballistic weapons & srms.

but it apparently it happens more often with the spider, else everybody (including me) would be complaining about jenners, ravens, commandos and whatnot.

[Deathlike]

For the record, the guys doing the netcode/backend seem to love drive the Spider...

Coincidence? Conspiracy?

The Spider is the definition of all that work and yet, it still dies.

It's not immortal, and yet at the same time, it's "not there" where you want to shoot it. The best you can do is try to alpha it by spraying and praying.

[kuangmk11]

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

Are there really that many groups of Spiders going around winning every game they play in? Are there really that many Spiders that tie up teams for minutes and go on to single-handedly carry their team to victory?

Since Phoenix came out I see about 1/4 of the numbers of spiders I used to. It doesn't mean the are not still broken.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I'd say one in 4 light mechs are spiders with the bulk of the rest being Jenners with some Raven 3Ls and (temporarily) Locusts thrown in for good measure.