287 replies to this topic

[KovarD]

Lunatech, on 15 November 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Wut? 3PV is OP?

3PV have great advantages:

• You can turn it on/off
  
• Better FOV
  
• Free Look behind a cover
  
• You can spot enemy chassis hided without them spotting your chassis
  
• You can easily check if its non-intentional friendly fire or a threat destroing your back armor
  
• Anti-trap closed quarters device. Press F4 and see who is waiting for you behind the building

Lunatech, on 15 November 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Maybe at the start of the match to check out their slick new paintjob

Mechlab?

Fooooo, on 16 November 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

I still really really dislike not having a match option with it totally disabled.

Yeah. Me too. I may come back to check it if they implement a 1PV queue.

Edited by KovarD, 17 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Dr Herbert West]

Heffay, on 15 November 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

[/size]

You're completely missing the lesson to be learned here. The implementation of 3PV was your Sandy Hook event.

You are being deliberately deceptive (or at least are attempting to be).

The poll in question was taken a after 3PV was implemented. Therefore it is a post-"Sandy Hook"/3PV poll. My point is that in the time since that poll stopped being active there hasn't been another "Sandy Hook" to shift people's opinions again.

Therefore, there is no reason to believe that opinions have changed significantly since then.

You know this.

Stop lying.

Quote

Nobody cares about 3PV. You missed your window to make people actually care. Something that the #savemwo and Unite and Drop crowd figured out pretty much way back then. They failed to make a difference because... wait for it... wait for it...



Nobody cares about 3PV.

This is a lie.

It is an obvious lie. This thread, the poll in this thread, the posts in this thread, and the poll thread we are discussing are proof that it is a lie.

You know this, therefore you are deliberately trying to decieve the readers of this thread.

You are a liar.

[Heffay]

Nobody cared when #savemwo tried to make it an issue. Nobody cares now. You can tell by the lack of people rallying to your flag.

Keep up the good fight though! I'm sure you'll be rewarded with a huge following of rabid, loyal followers who will leap to your defense every time you whisper "3PV!"

"That Mr West... he was a pioneer that did what both those other guys failed to do: He got separate 1PV only queues!"

[Dr Herbert West]

Heffay, on 18 November 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Nobody cared when #savemwo tried to make it an issue. Nobody cares now. You can tell by the lack of people rallying to your flag.

Keep up the good fight though! I'm sure you'll be rewarded with a huge following of rabid, loyal followers who will leap to your defense every time you whisper "3PV!"

You are a liar.

The poll/posts in this thread, and the poll/posts in the other poll thread prove you a liar.

The players have already spoken via the polls, both now and in the past. I don't need people defending me and liking my posts. I can defend myself.

Quote

"That Mr West... he was a pioneer that did what both those other guys failed to do: He got separate 1PV only queues!"

I have no illusions that I'll be able to accomplish this. PGIGP proved themselves adept at ignoring the overwhelming will of the community when they implemented 3PV. Why would they change their minds because of me?

If I did succeed, however, I would be happy to know that I helped MWO be a better game.

EDIT: and that's Dr. West to you (actual "Dr." IRL)

Edited by Dr Herbert West, 18 November 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[MadcatX]

Dr Herbert West, on 18 November 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

EDIT: and that's Dr. West to you (actual "Dr." IRL)

As am I!
God I love the internet.

[Heffay]

Well doctor, allow me to gaze into my crystal ball and make a prediction: This thread will slowly drop down in the forums, except for the occassional bump from you to attempt to continue to make it an issue. And still, no one will care, because nobody cares about 3PV.

You've had to bring it back from the dead a couple of times now. What's next?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Heffay, on 18 November 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

You've had to bring it back from the dead a couple of times now. What's next?

According to PGI..... thongs.

[Dr Herbert West]

MadcatX, on 18 November 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

As am I!
God I love the internet.

If you actually care, I could prove it. Take it to PMs if you wish.

Heffay, on 18 November 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Well doctor, allow me to gaze into my crystal ball and make a prediction: This thread will slowly drop down in the forums, except for the occassional bump from you to attempt to continue to make it an issue. And still, no one will care, because nobody cares about 3PV.

Every time you repeat the lie "Nobody cares about 3PV", I will continue to call you, and anyone else, out on it. This thread, and the linked thread are proof that it is a lie.

You are not just a troll. You are a liar.

I am kind of curious though. Your posts lack any sort of passion about the game. I.e. you're not defending 3PV because you think its really really important for the good of the game. Instead you seem to really really care about making people think that people don't care about 3PV. You obviously don't beleive that or else, you wouldn't be working so hard to spread that lie.

What's your motivation?

Quote

You've had to bring it back from the dead a couple of times now. What's next?

Although I appreciate the opportunity to make a joke here about my namesake and reanimation/bringing things back from the dead, the truth is that this thread hasn't died once.

[pbiggz]

Dr Herbert West, on 19 November 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

If you actually care, I could prove it. Take it to PMs if you wish.



Every time you repeat the lie "Nobody cares about 3PV", I will continue to call you, and anyone else, out on it. This thread, and the linked thread are proof that it is a lie.

You are not just a troll. You are a liar.

I am kind of curious though. Your posts lack any sort of passion about the game. I.e. you're not defending 3PV because you think its really really important for the good of the game. Instead you seem to really really care about making people think that people don't care about 3PV. You obviously don't believe that or else, you wouldn't be working so hard to spread that lie.

What's your motivation?



Although I appreciate the opportunity to make a joke here about my namesake and reanimation/bringing things back from the dead, the truth is that this thread hasn't died once.

You're the only one who's lying. You delude yourselves and anyone of a like mind. I have said it before and I will say it again, the only people who hate 3pv are the people who PRETEND it breaks the game, despite it having little to no actual effect.

You can sling mud around as much as you damn well please. You can call people liars and trolls and dedicate your existence to calling those people out, but it wont change the truth, all you achieve is making yourself look like an embittered douche, so bravo, I hope that's what you wanted.

And news flash, you've resurrected this thread AND an even older 3pv poll from august in an attempt to legitimize your position.

Edited by pbiggz, 19 November 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Fun and serious thought:
Some people REALLY care about 3PV
Some people REALLY DON'T care about 3PV
Some people KIND OF care about 3PV
Some people honestly wonder what 3PV means.

In other words: You are ALL wrong when you argue that people do or do not care.

[Heffay]

Shar Wolf, on 19 November 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Fun and serious thought:
Some people REALLY care about 3PV
Some people REALLY DON'T care about 3PV
Some people KIND OF care about 3PV
Some people honestly wonder what 3PV means.

In other words: You are ALL wrong when you argue that people do or do not care.

There is no 3PV in MWO. It's a term of convenience used to describe the *1PV* view from the drone outside your mech.

Therefore, nobody cares about 3PV, because it doesn't exist.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Heffay, on 19 November 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

There is no 3PV in MWO. It's a term of convenience used to describe the *1PV* view from the drone outside your mech.

Therefore, nobody cares about 3PV, because it doesn't exist.

Please note: I am one of those who could care less either way: "3PV" has been a part of every mechwarrior game but 1: and that one did not have the technical capabilities to do it.

From that perspective yes:
From the perspective that the drone has no actual 'place' in the game: by which I/they mean that it has no hitbox no health, it is simply a marker to show that the person is seeing things from outside his mech.
No.

And that is where this argument is getting stupid.
Neither side is willing to listen to the others side's perspective - with few exceptions, and those exceptions have either shut up, as they recognize that no one is willing to listen, or decided to join the crowd and stopped listening,

[Ghogiel]

Heffay, on 18 November 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

And still, no one will care, because nobody cares about 3PV.

Your 3PV quest in this thread is testament no one cares.

Oh wait...

[Dr Herbert West]

pbiggz, on 19 November 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

You're the only one who's lying. You delude yourselves and anyone of a like mind. I have said it before and I will say it again, the only people who hate 3pv are the people who PRETEND it breaks the game, despite it having little to no actual effect.

You can sling mud around as much as you damn well please. You can call people liars and trolls and dedicate your existence to calling those people out, but it wont change the truth, all you achieve is making yourself look like an embittered douche, so bravo, I hope that's what you wanted.

What have I lied about?

I'm certain you can't point to a single thing.

I called Heffay a liar because he says "nobody cares about 3PV." This is obviously not true when you look at the poll (~30% of people care enough about 3PV that they won't play with it in), and the posts in this thread by myself and others. This is so obviously true that his statement must be a lie, as opposed to a simple misunderstanding.

Also, embittered douche, you say? Look in the mirror that is your own post.

Quote

And news flash, you've resurrected this thread AND an even older 3pv poll from august in an attempt to legitimize your position.

Link me to the posts where I resurrected the threads in question. I didn't resurrect the 3PV poll (someone else did), and this thread has been active from its start.

Heffay, on 19 November 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

There is no 3PV in MWO. It's a term of convenience used to describe the *1PV* view from the drone outside your mech.

Therefore, nobody cares about 3PV, because it doesn't exist.

Quoting this for posterity. Heffay: "There is no 3PV in MWO."

Have we also always been at war with Oceania? Is war, in fact, peace? The Big Lie technique is actually effective in real life, which is why it must constantly be refuted.

Secondly, whatever you may call it, what you and I and everyone else in this thread is calling 3PV is obviously the drone view. This is what we have been arguing about. You've been using this terminology from the start.

This is why you are a liar.

Shar Wolf, on 19 November 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

And that is where this argument is getting stupid.
Neither side is willing to listen to the others side's perspective - with few exceptions, and those exceptions have either shut up, as they recognize that no one is willing to listen, or decided to join the crowd and stopped listening,

This isn't exactly fair. For the last several pages, Heffay has been arguing that "Nobody cares about 3PV" and has only recently argued that "There is no 3PV." The problem is that these aren't arguments. They are flat out lies.

The first one is obviously a lie because, look at the poll and look at this discussion we are having. The second one is obviously a lie because for the entire thread "3PV" has been short hand for the view from the drone.

Its one thing to not listen to the other side's perspective. Its another thing when one side isn't actually arguing, but just repeating lies and obfuscations.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Dr Herbert West, on 19 November 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

This isn't exactly fair. For the last several pages, Heffay has been arguing that "Nobody cares about 3PV" and has only recently argued that "There is no 3PV." The problem is that these aren't arguments. They are flat out lies.

The first one is obviously a lie because, look at the poll and look at this discussion we are having. The second one is obviously a lie because for the entire thread "3PV" has been short hand for the view from the drone.

Its one thing to not listen to the other side's perspective. Its another thing when one side isn't actually arguing, but just repeating lies and obfuscations.

Heffay more than explained his perspective, and from that perspective, he is right - and not a liar.
That does NOT make it a GOOD perspective, but it is one you (and others) have repeatedly ignored.
You have not tried to explain why his perspective is wrong (here is a hint - I did, badly)

My point still stands.

[Dr Herbert West]

Shar Wolf, on 19 November 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Heffay more than explained his perspective, and from that perspective, he is right - and not a liar.
That does NOT make it a GOOD perspective, but it is one you (and others) have repeatedly ignored.
You have not tried to explain why his perspective is wrong (here is a hint - I did, badly)

My point still stands.

If you're speaking about the thread as a whole, and not the last few pages, then yes, you're correct. He explained his perspective, and, I think I didn't ignore it and addressed it.

However, the last few pages have been different. Heffay has been arguing "nobody cares about 3PV". This is different from "3PV is actually ok" or "the people who don't like 3PV have/will get over it" because those statements aren't provably false. If the perspective you are arguing is something demonstrably false, you are either an ***** or misinformed (I don't believe Heffay is either), not arguing in good faith, trolling, or propagandizing (the last three are all forms of lying).

Its the difference between arguing whether Barak Obama is a good or bad president (an opinion/perspective) and whether or not he's a US citizen when the birth certificate has been made public (i.e. a fact).

=======

Getting back to the issue at hand, this poll, and the other most recent 3PV poll show that even 3 months after 3PV was introduced, it is still an issue for many of the players who still visit these forums. For those who remember the level of hate/anger in the 3PV feedback thread when 3PV was first introduced, its not unreasonable to assume that there are many other players for which 3PV is an issue who simply don't visit the forums anymore.

The most obvious solution that doesn't involve removing 3PV is to implement a WoT style 3PV where mechs you don't have LoS to from the cockpit aren't rendered. This would eliminate any gameplay issues with 3PV.

In fact, it would let you do much more with 3PV: because players would no longer see what their mech couldn't see, you could give them back the minimap or even allow 360-degree panning to get a better look at those paints. You could even allow higher, easier to use camera angles. This solution would make the game better and would make everyone happy.

[SmithMPBT]

3PV has given me a much deeper understanding that my mech has legs and a torso that can move independently. I love it!

[Alaskan Nobody]

Dr Herbert West, on 20 November 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

The most obvious solution that doesn't involve removing 3PV is to implement a WoT style 3PV where mechs you don't have LoS to from the cockpit aren't rendered. This would eliminate any gameplay issues with 3PV.

In fact, it would let you do much more with 3PV: because players would no longer see what their mech couldn't see, you could give them back the minimap or even allow 360-degree panning to get a better look at those paints. You could even allow higher, easier to use camera angles. This solution would make the game better and would make everyone happy.

I could honestly care less about Polls - I to well remember the arguments the goons made about their polls - and have not seen much improvement in what polls I have looked into.

On the other hand I do not believe there are that many (Including Heffay) who would argue against that implementation of 3PV.

Problem is: I am not sure the current crew of PGI can do it.
By that I am not declaring them incompetent, just working outside their field of expertise.

Not only are they climbing the same hill Vampire: the Masquerade: Bloodlines was - they are not a group of technical programmers. (I think that was the term for what they need to help with programming things like HSR.... if not replace Technical Programmer with whatever the appropriate term would be )

I get irritated when people start screaming about how incompetent they are (thank you for not doing that by the way) since they have shown themselves quite competent - in their field of expertise.

I find myself hoping and (in all honesty) praying every day that they manage to hire some people who are competent technical programmers (more than one most likely) because that is (near as I can tell anyways ) their biggest hurdle right now.

[Heffay]

Shar Wolf, on 20 November 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

On the other hand I do not believe there are that many (Including Heffay) who would argue against that implementation of 3PV.

I'm not a fan of that solution. It destroys the sim feeling that the game has. How do you justify a camera that can't see something right in front of it?

There are other, better ways to balance it. Make the mech targetable if the drone is visible, then rain down LRMs on those snipers abusing it. Make it so that when you hit it with a PPC or laser, it blinds the pilot for a couple of seconds. Make it a module that is installed by default on all mechs, and has to be removed by people who don't want it at all (also a good intro for new players to the module system, plus are you going to take it over a drone or arty strike?).

Lots of things you can do to balance it even more that don't involve having it not render a mech that is clearly visible to it. That's a lazy solution.

[Alaskan Nobody]

/shrug
I stand corrected.