330 replies to this topic

[Chavette]

What about the mech scaling overview that was promised?

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Deathlike, on 20 November 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

(stuff I generally agree with snipped for brevity)
Centurions are fine, unless you plan to remove the only semblance of viability by removing the arm stub-hitboxes. Otherwise, they get legged pretty often (PLEASE DON'T MAKE THEIR LEGS GROW RAVEN SIZED, THEY GET LEGGED AS IT IS ALREADY).

Centurions get legged because:
- their torso hit boxes are not right, and experienced players know this, and aim for the legs
- in general, when you see a Centurion even before you get target information, you know that there are almost certainly no weapons in the arms (Yen-Lo-Wang excluded), you know that there is almost certainly a standard engine, and lots of armor on the torsos, and (probably) ammo in the legs ... and experienced players know this, and aim for the legs

All that said, you're right on one count ... the leg hit boxes are fine ... it's the torso hit boxes that make them a better brawler (in a zombie configuration) than any other medium mech.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 20 November 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[Sharp Spikes]

Review of Cicada hitboxes is good: it has really nasty bug that transfers damage from CTR to front CT (if one knows where to shoot it is easy to exploit).
A look at TBT is also appreciated, as it is too squishy even for a 50-tonner.

But can we have another, out-of-order pass on the Awesome, and if yes can we have its hitboxes implemented this way:

Please?

Edited by Sharp Spikes, 21 November 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[John MatriX82]

Sharp Spikes, on 21 November 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Review of Cicada hitboxes is good: it has really nasty bug that transfers damage from CTR to front CT (if one knows where to shoot it is easy to exploit).
A look at TBT is also appreciated, as it is too squishy even for a 50-tonner.

But can we have another, out-of-order pass on the Awesome, and if yes can we have its hitboxes implemented this way:

Please?

My hopes were high for such a solution, to make that poor chassis sturdier. They only reduced the CT size (which is a decent choice) at the expense of furtherly increase side torsoes dimensions, thus making XL mechs such as PB and 9M even more worthless than they were before.

There are countless threads about making the shoulder pauldron to be part of the arm hitbox. At least let us TRY that. It can't be so hard!!! People are asking for that change since day 0 of the arrival of the Awesome in this game, that has been crippled by the bulkiest model that could have ever been thought in the history of FPS games.

At least award it with that hitbox or.. please, REMAKE the whole model from scratch if you can't deliver that hitbox.

Edited by John MatriX82, 21 November 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[Mechteric]

The updated hitboxes on the Awesome seem to be effectual, I had a great time running it on patch day and felt like an actuall assault mech. Can't wait for the centurion, trebuchet, and dragon updates!!!!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 November 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Butane9000]

Is there anyway we can get an image similar to Carrioncrows versions which show the new hit boxes?

[Mister Blastman]

Paul, I think it is nice and dandy you are updating the hitboxes on all the mechs. I like especially how you were sure to point out that the Dragon will be among the four getting updated next.

Sadly, I want to report that you are all but wasting your time. There is no amount of hitbox tweaking that can save the Dragon or any medium mechs at the moment. In the current high-alpha, focused front-loaded damage metagame, nothing you do short of actually following through and... here's the important part (paying attention?) finishing the job with the aggressive weapon balancing and tuning will rescue them (and it).

Nothing.

So you are wasting not only your time, but our time.

The fact of the matter is, the following items below need to be address first, before anything else:

1. Direct, front-loaded damage weapons such as... PPCs and Autocannons

The Autocannons need to be re-designed to deal damage over time with multiple sub-projectiles in burst over time that can miss or spread out over the target.

The PPCs need to be re-designed to have both splash damage, a feedback inhibitor override (with penalties) and damage over time plus perhaps tertiary bonuses such as HUD scrambling.

-or-

2. Convergence is removed.

Doing one of the above will allow lasers to be competitive.

-then-

3. Remove ghost heat (terrible system, awful). Logic: By addressing 1 or 2, you fix the PROBLEM not the SYMPTOM. Amazing thought, right?

4. Fix SRMs. Up their damage but more importantly... make their damage register in full.

5. This one should be obvious: Fix Host-state-rewind so damage counts 100% of the time.

and lastly...

6. Fix the matchmaker with tonnage limits for everything BUT 12-man drops
and ... stop dropping scrubs and nubs versus high ELO players. Even better... put in a SOLO ONLY QUEUE.

7. Modules. Make the c-bill/MC modules have more drawbacks/penalties/disadvantages over the regular ones. Also put limits on airstrike per team.

8. The heat system. It is terrible. Give us true DHS 2.0, cut the heat limit in half to 30 and make the heatsinks dissipate not 1 point (or 2) over 10 seconds, but over something more realistic... like 3.5 seconds. Also, put in penalties like blurring your view, sluggish controls etc. etc. for riding the line.

Then, Paul, after you address all of the above... THEN will your hitbox changes matter. Well, almost. Give the Dragon's claw a use and... put in collisions so it can knock things over.

You're wasting your time until you fix the real issues instead of the minor issues or... worse, the symptoms instead of the problems.

[Mycrus]

[Skye Storm]

Mister Blastman, on 21 November 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Paul, I think it is nice and dandy you are updating the hitboxes on all the mechs. I like especially how you were sure to point out that the Dragon will be among the four getting updated next.

Sadly, I want to report that you are all but wasting your time. There is no amount of hitbox tweaking that can save the Dragon or any medium mechs at the moment. In the current high-alpha, focused front-loaded damage metagame, nothing you do short of actually following through and... here's the important part (paying attention?) finishing the job with the aggressive weapon balancing and tuning will rescue them (and it).

Nothing.

So you are wasting not only your time, but our time.

The fact of the matter is, the following items below need to be address first, before anything else:

1. Direct, front-loaded damage weapons such as... PPCs and Autocannons

The Autocannons need to be re-designed to deal damage over time with multiple sub-projectiles in burst over time that can miss or spread out over the target.

The PPCs need to be re-designed to have both splash damage, a feedback inhibitor override (with penalties) and damage over time plus perhaps tertiary bonuses such as HUD scrambling.

-or-

2. Convergence is removed.

Doing one of the above will allow lasers to be competitive.

-then-

3. Remove ghost heat (terrible system, awful). Logic: By addressing 1 or 2, you fix the PROBLEM not the SYMPTOM. Amazing thought, right?

4. Fix SRMs. Up their damage but more importantly... make their damage register in full.

5. This one should be obvious: Fix Host-state-rewind so damage counts 100% of the time.

and lastly...

6. Fix the matchmaker with tonnage limits for everything BUT 12-man drops
and ... stop dropping scrubs and nubs versus high ELO players. Even better... put in a SOLO ONLY QUEUE.

7. Modules. Make the c-bill/MC modules have more drawbacks/penalties/disadvantages over the regular ones. Also put limits on airstrike per team.

8. The heat system. It is terrible. Give us true DHS 2.0, cut the heat limit in half to 30 and make the heatsinks dissipate not 1 point (or 2) over 10 seconds, but over something more realistic... like 3.5 seconds. Also, put in penalties like blurring your view, sluggish controls etc. etc. for riding the line.

Then, Paul, after you address all of the above... THEN will your hitbox changes matter. Well, almost. Give the Dragon's claw a use and... put in collisions so it can knock things over.

You're wasting your time until you fix the real issues instead of the minor issues or... worse, the symptoms instead of the problems.

Mister Blastman, on 21 November 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Paul, I think it is nice and dandy you are updating the hitboxes on all the mechs. I like especially how you were sure to point out that the Dragon will be among the four getting updated next.

Sadly, I want to report that you are all but wasting your time. There is no amount of hitbox tweaking that can save the Dragon or any medium mechs at the moment. In the current high-alpha, focused front-loaded damage metagame, nothing you do short of actually following through and... here's the important part (paying attention?) finishing the job with the aggressive weapon balancing and tuning will rescue them (and it).

Nothing.

So you are wasting not only your time, but our time.

The fact of the matter is, the following items below need to be address first, before anything else:

1. Direct, front-loaded damage weapons such as... PPCs and Autocannons

The Autocannons need to be re-designed to deal damage over time with multiple sub-projectiles in burst over time that can miss or spread out over the target.

The PPCs need to be re-designed to have both splash damage, a feedback inhibitor override (with penalties) and damage over time plus perhaps tertiary bonuses such as HUD scrambling.

-or-

2. Convergence is removed.

Doing one of the above will allow lasers to be competitive.

-then-

3. Remove ghost heat (terrible system, awful). Logic: By addressing 1 or 2, you fix the PROBLEM not the SYMPTOM. Amazing thought, right?

4. Fix SRMs. Up their damage but more importantly... make their damage register in full.

5. This one should be obvious: Fix Host-state-rewind so damage counts 100% of the time.

and lastly...

6. Fix the matchmaker with tonnage limits for everything BUT 12-man drops
and ... stop dropping scrubs and nubs versus high ELO players. Even better... put in a SOLO ONLY QUEUE.

7. Modules. Make the c-bill/MC modules have more drawbacks/penalties/disadvantages over the regular ones. Also put limits on airstrike per team.

8. The heat system. It is terrible. Give us true DHS 2.0, cut the heat limit in half to 30 and make the heatsinks dissipate not 1 point (or 2) over 10 seconds, but over something more realistic... like 3.5 seconds. Also, put in penalties like blurring your view, sluggish controls etc. etc. for riding the line.

Then, Paul, after you address all of the above... THEN will your hitbox changes matter. Well, almost. Give the Dragon's claw a use and... put in collisions so it can knock things over.

You're wasting your time until you fix the real issues instead of the minor issues or... worse, the symptoms instead of the problems.

Yes

[SuperJoe]

RIP Cent & Dragon

[Night Fury76]

I must say the spider has been fixed and i'm happy.
No more spider 5k's chewing on my stalker's legs while they stand still.
Taking more alpha strikes than a fresh atlas could.

One just stood there yesterday and did his superman stance.
I alpha'd him dead.

To all light pilots, keep moving guys, keep moving.
cheers

[Night Fury76]

Thariel, on 18 November 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Well, so it is about hitboxes, not hitting in general, right? Why are you talking about Spider nerfs ? No hits detected calculated in other hitboxes will still result in no damage, no matter if it is 0 damage CT or 0 damage RT. The Spider problem is registering hits in general. (I've had the issue often myself, Spider running straight, me behind, using a full array of lasers, the spider barely turns yellow on just some armor locations, whilst the damage being generated by me should have been sufficient to kill it, no matter where I hit)).

I think the issue which has been around for a while is sometimes there are gaps in the hitboxs, some bigger than others.
When this spot or spots are hit then the mech takes no damage. Though i've heard that it's no so much gaps, but areas of grey between two hitboxs that the server gets confused over and therefore gives up all together, so the hit does not reg.

I remember in DEC 2012 ravens doing the exact same thing of supermaning as the spiders did until this week.
Sad that PGI wastes so much time repeating history.

[Bront]

SuperJoe, on 21 November 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

RIP Cent & Dragon

Dragon is already DOA, so this may help. Sadly, the model is part of the problem, so not sure if it will fix a lot.

Cent has known issues with hit boxes. A minor tweak here may get it working properly without changing the durrability much (For example, if all he does is remove the phantom arm boxes and gives it a thong, the Cent durability might suffer slightly, but not enough to prevent it from being useful, and maybe the balistic arm stays a bit longer.

[Tekadept]

Lies, there is nothing wrong with the dragon, It can be OP so long as you know how to pilot it, same for the ballistic arm, just learn to protect it like a newborn infant and you will rarely lose it.

[Mavairo]

My lowest Dragon KDR is 1.26 And that's because the 1N has an utterly loathsome pair of missile hardpoints.

My highest is the one that supposedly sucks... the 5N at a 1.63 after 190 matches.

Don't you dare mess with the Dragon's STs.

Seriously the XL is the whole reason the Dragon even functions. Making the STs target-able means it won't be able to carry Jack for weaponry, and maintain any combat mobility.

There would be no reason to field one ever compared to the Cataphract, Kitty Cat, Thunderbolt, Jager or Orion with bigger STs.

The Dragon isn't that bad of a mech. It requires a massive investment of cbills but once that investment is made, it becomes a hell of a good mech.

If anything make the Dragon's STs even smaller.

Want to buff the Dragon?
Introduce Light AutoCannons and move the 1N's Missiles to the STs. "Nooo not canon" Canon left along time ago.

Edited by Mavairo, 21 November 2013 - 10:02 PM.

[Arcturious]

Dragon issues as I see them, and what I would like looked at if possible.

1. The Arms seem to take too much damage, there is something weird going on. Nearly every game in my 5N, my LB10X gets destroyed within seconds. Nearly every game, I end up with no arms and my ST's get shot out and I die from XL.

2. ST's could do with a tweak smaller, maybe more arm coverage? Really no idea how to improve it, but everyone targets them and they are easy to pop. It is getting to the point where I'm starting to debate taking STD engines on my Dragons as their survivability is so low right now with XL's.

3. Legs. Again, it's weird but they feel like I'm taking too much damage. I've had to increase the armour on them to nearly max. Anything under 45 and they get blown off in seconds. Max is better but they still get stripped nearly every game.

I have 75 mechs. All fully elites and most fully mastered. So I play a lot of other heavies with comparable armour values. The Dragon just "feels" far, far more fragile. Limbs get removed extremely fast. There is definitely some tuning required.

Thanks!!!!!

Edited by Arcturious, 21 November 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[HarlekinEO]

Regarding Awesome Hitboxes:
Damage is now more incoming at the Side Torsos. The Center Torso is no more a damage magnet.

For my playstyle its not that good solution, since it make torso twisting to absorb damage with arms less attractive (damage often hits Sides aswell). For sturdy onward fight it might be better (like premades 12vs12 likes).

For now no final result on my side. I might test it a bit more.

[Voivode]

Awesome hitbox fix was pretty solid. I really like what they did. For people who liked the Awesome before it was a great improvement. For people on the fence it seems to have made them like the mech a bit more. For those that hated it before, it's not enough to change their mind.

[Meta 2013]

So,

You still can smack a spyder in the face twice with an ac20 and it lives and kills you. Shot one that overheated and was not moving square in the torso with an ac20, then 2 medium lasers, then as it fired up it stood there to shoot me ...I shot it again ... ac20 both medium lasers ...it still lived, and eventually killed me. Same old story ...

So how is this possible given the supposed hit box fix. do I believe they increased the hit boxes by 10% ...sure. so lets say the spiders CT is 2 grains of sand wide, by 5 grains long, so 10 grains of sand ... 10% would be an extra grain of sand ... which they placed at the bottom of the CT hit box. Effectively they didn't change anything but elongate the hit box one grain of sand.

so while it sounded like a good fix, it really did nothing, and spyders happily run around absorbing the effective fire power required to drop 2 atlas sized mechs. Really getting tired of watching 6 guys chase and pound a spyder that lives for another 3 minutes and kills 2 or 3 of last 6 guys all giving chase and pounding him at the same time.

Thanks again for crushing any hope of nice fair game play.

Meta

[ebea51]

Whats the point of fixing mech hitboxes if you cant hit them in the first place because hitreg/HSR/netcode is F**CKED??