95 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Please no! Mediums do not need a buff. All others need nerfed.
Slower speed for movement and torso twist imo.

Yes, but it is easier to sell buffing mediums than nerfing everything else.

[Wolfways]

Davers, on 04 November 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Yes, but it is easier to sell buffing mediums than nerfing everything else.

Yeah but...erm....I don't care!

Maybe i just always thought of BT as big lumbering mechs (like in the MW5 video) and think that mechs in MWO move too fast. When i see lights bouncing around all over i can't help thinking of that stupid Transformers movie i regret ever watching

[Mister Blastman]

Murphy7, on 04 November 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I disagree. There is a huge jump in the engine + maneuverability between lights and everyone else. Mediums and heavies are on too tight of a scale, such that heavies can routinely outmaneuver mediums with sufficient engine rating, and the lighter end of the assaults do not trail so far behind the mediums & heavies. If there is room on the continuum, it is for mediums to get closer to lights in maneuverability for their respective engine investment.

I think this issue exists at all levels of play, and is not something where one group's experience at either end of the ELO pool should dictate design.

Sorry, but the pro level players really know how to exploit the game and make the most out of everything. Light mechs are pure fodder to pro players in properly outfitted heavy or larger mechs. All they have to do is look at a light mech wrong and they die horribly.

There are some really amazing light pilots out there in pro level circles who can survive but they have to work their ever living butts off to make up the disadvantage they are playing at with the current weapon imbalances.

[Artgathan]

Asyres, on 04 November 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Currently, the two largest mediums are considered to be the best (Centurion and Shaqhawk). I'm not saying that mediums couldn't be improved by a scaling pass, just that it's probably not the most critical way that they might be improved.

Being the fastest man on crutches does not make one equivalent to Usain Bolt.

That said, the Centurion gets it notoriety expressly due to it's overlarge hitboxes (the arms, ever when destroyed, are easy to hit, which causes damage to be absorbed at a reduced rate). The Shadowhawk is made decent but it's high gunports + jumpjets, making it a good jumpsniper. The small side torsos also allow it to (somewhat) safely mount an XL engine, giving it a significant firepower advantage over the other mediums.

[Murphy7]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Sorry, but the pro level players really know how to exploit the game and make the most out of everything. Light mechs are pure fodder to pro players in properly outfitted heavy or larger mechs. All they have to do is look at a light mech wrong and they die horribly.

There are some really amazing light pilots out there in pro level circles who can survive but they have to work their ever living butts off to make up the disadvantage they are playing at with the current weapon imbalances.

I'm sorry your insecurity has caused you to enter this thread dropping your perception of what "pro" is like. I don't see anyone else tying their wagon to those arguments in this thread.

I don't deny there are aspects of the game where player skill trumps an apparent design flaw, but this isn't it.

[krolmir]

I agree with the OP as a general whole, light should always have shear speed, but mediums should be just short in the agility and maneuverability department.

[Mister Blastman]

Murphy7, on 04 November 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

I'm sorry your insecurity has caused you to enter this thread dropping your perception of what "pro" is like. I don't see anyone else tying their wagon to those arguments in this thread.

I don't deny there are aspects of the game where player skill trumps an apparent design flaw, but this isn't it.

It isn't insecurity, it is just stating a fact. Someone in here stated light mechs are overpowered. The truth is they aren't and haven't been since last April. Even spiders go down with ease if you know what you're doing and carrying the appropriate overpowered weapons. If you aren't... well, then the results will possibly be different.

I admit, I do see spiders absorb AC 20 rounds like they're pancakes but I also see more than my share of them go down in just a few shots.

[Bishop Steiner]

while agree a little more is nice, I also find their torso twist is HUGE for more than JUST spreading damage.

That torso twist also applies to it's ability to circle and cause damage as I can still hit the other guys at extremes that they can't follow, and have to either reverse turn to try to meet me, or the like.

A little comparo chart of some popular mechs, with my fave lil HBK



The HBK literally has no blindspot, when elited, and it's AC can reach further behind it that most mechs arms car flex. Add in it's insane twist speed, and that is very very useful for keeping weapons on target while manuevering.

Not saying the faster accel/deccel wouldn't be welcome, just that I find my torso twist to be huge in allowing me to outfight mechs bigger then me. The twist speed certainly is good defensively, as it lets me snap my hunch out of harms way pretty fast, then snap back on target after the cooldown usually before they can react. But it also works offensively, too.

[Wolfways]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

Even spiders go down with ease if you know what you're doing and carrying the appropriate overpowered weapons.

Isn't that the problem though? You don't need certain weapons to fight any other class, yet you do for fighting lights?
I don't play FOTM builds. In fact most of my mechs have their stock weapons, and i don't have a single mech with an AC20. Is it right that because i choose to play with actual Battletech mechs (only upgraded to deal with MWO's heat system) that i should be cannon fodder for lights?

[YueFei]

I don't think turning ability and acceleration/deceleration buffs are necessary for Mediums. And I say this as someone who mainly drives mediums.

What is really needed is larger maps and proper game modes and mission objectives to make Mediums useful. Compared to a comparably-built Heavy, they can move a given weapons payload with lesser armor at *marginally* higher speeds. That slightly higher speed is not tactically significant. But it can be strategically significant over a long enough march.

Take the classic AC/20 Hunchback going 90+ kph. You can build a Cataphract that carries the same weapons payload, has more armor, carries jump jets, and goes 82 kph on a STD engine. A difference of 8 kph is barely noticeable if all you do is shift 300 meters from one side of a firing line to the other side. You arrive in 13 seconds in a Hunchback, versus 11.8 seconds in a Cataphract. Not likely to be significant.

Make that a larger distance, say, 3000 meters, and the Hunchback arrives on-scene 12 seconds faster than the Cataphract, enough to fire 3 volleys before a comparably-built Cataphract could arrive in the same spot.

Edited by YueFei, 04 November 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[Destoroyah]

I got to agree with the opener PGI needs to consider agility tweaks to mechs especially mediums to make them more viable. Most the mediums could use a substantile agility increase with the lighter tonnages getting the biggest tweaks. Same goes for some of the lights especially the commandos and locusts with the others recieving minor tweaks. Even some of the heavies that are supposed to be Fast Flankers could use tweaks in this regard.

[MustrumRidcully]

stjobe, on 04 November 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

First off, any medium pilot worth his neurohelmet will make short work of a light in a 1v1. That's not where the issue lies.

The biggest problem is that the pilot efficiencies make assaults move like heavies, heavies move like medium, medium move like lights, and lights - well lights already move like lights, so they're the least affected by it.

The whole game is too fast, and it's the fault of the pilot efficiencies.

They were initially envisioned at 2.5% increases, but now we're at 7.5% - 40% (torso twist speed elited) increases. It's just too damn much, and it changes the whole dynamic of a 'mech, and sadly it's the mediums that gets hit the hardest (although light 'mechs are also hit when the torso twist speed of a heavy/assault completely invalidates the light's speed advantage).

So I say remove the pilot skills. Implement the role skills from Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare instead. The game would be much, much better for it, and with proper role warfare lights and mediums would be truly useful on the battlefield.

I'll say 2.5 % was irrelevant, but 40 % is likely too much. 5-10 % sound reasonable.

[AZA311]

Go play Hawken if you want a twitch shooter.

Torso twist and arm speed, anchor pivot, all that......... needs to be reduced in line with mech speed and movement........and not to mention......REALITY!

At the current rate mechs torso twist, pilots would be thrown out the window or suffer massive brain hemorrhage from whiplash.

Who cares how fast your mech moves. Mechs can torso twist on a dime and line up a shot in no time. And no wonder people cry about over powered this alpha powered that.

Can YOU a human being even swivel your upper body that fast? Try it hahahahah........pew pew pew pew

Edited by AZA311, 05 November 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

The community is in agreement so make it so!

[Adiuvo]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Isn't that the problem though? You don't need certain weapons to fight any other class, yet you do for fighting lights?
I don't play FOTM builds. In fact most of my mechs have their stock weapons, and i don't have a single mech with an AC20. Is it right that because i choose to play with actual Battletech mechs (only upgraded to deal with MWO's heat system) that i should be cannon fodder for lights?

If you're ignoring a major part of the game (the mechlab) then yeah, things are going to be difficult for you.

The game should be balanced towards people making optimal setups, not for those who are essentially roleplaying. If it was balanced towards the roleplayers, optimal setups would be terribly overpowered.

[Roland]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

In fact most of my mechs have their stock weapons

Then your mechs are terrible.

In games where you aren't limited to stock configurations, you can't hope to be competitive with stock configurations, as they are pretty much garbage across the board.

[Murphy7]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Then your mechs are terrible for MWO.

In games where you aren't limited to stock configurations, you can't hope to be competitive with stock configurations, as they are pretty much garbage across the board.

Slight change in emphasis. The stock designs are built around a much more deliberate flow of play, where you never need/want 5-6 tons of ammunition for a weapon system; where weapon diversity can be realized benefit rather than a hindrance to your gameplay, and most importantly, works allright in a game where dice determine where you are hit.

While I personally would enjoy a stock mechs battle with other likeminded folks who want a nod towards the old TT game, but it is not something I expect to be effective or ideal in most MWO match play.

[FupDup]

Murphy7, on 05 November 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Slight change in emphasis. The stock designs are built around a much more deliberate flow of play, where you never need/want 5-6 tons of ammunition for a weapon system; where weapon diversity can be realized benefit rather than a hindrance to your gameplay, and most importantly, works allright in a game where dice determine where you are hit.

While I personally would enjoy a stock mechs battle with other likeminded folks who want a nod towards the old TT game, but it is not something I expect to be effective or ideal in most MWO match play.

To be fair, a large number of stock configs were kinda bad even in TT. They did all sorts of stupid things, like using FF in place of Endo Steel, packing more weapons than you could ever hope to fire without shutting down and/or exploding instantly, not packing enough ammo, giving heavy mechs the armor of lights, placing MG ammo in the center torso, light mechs going at assault mech speed, not carrying backup weapons, not boating PPCs or Gauss, and so on.

Stock mechs were in fact deliberately designed to be flawed and inefficient in most cases.

Edited by FupDup, 05 November 2013 - 10:51 AM.

[Murphy7]

FupDup, on 05 November 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

To be fair, a large number of stock configs were kinda bad even in TT. They did all sorts of stupid things, like using FF in place of Endo Steel, packing more weapons than you could ever hope to fire without shutting down instantly, not packing enough ammo, giving heavy mechs the armor of lights, placing MG ammo in the center torso, light mechs going at assault mech speed, not carrying backup weapons, not boating PPCs or Gauss, and so on.

Stock mechs were in fact deliberately designed to be flawed and inefficient in most cases.

True in parts. Alpha was never meant to be the only firing solution any and every mech ever employed.

In some mechs the Alpha potential coupled to the heat scale is more of a final option that could be that much scarier for its use.

And of course, they've changed the infantry rules a few times so the concept of having anti-infantry weaopns has only ever gotten less and less attractive/necessary.

Some mechs were just bad designs... stock Rifleman, the Vulcan, not terribly fond of the stock Shadowhawk in TT.

In some mechs, the weaponry / heat made more sense in terms of range bands.

[Roland]

AZA311, on 05 November 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Can YOU a human being even swivel your upper body that fast? Try it hahahahah........pew pew pew pew

Dude, how old and fat are you that it takes you some significant amount of time to twist your upper body?

Murphy7, on 05 November 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Slight change in emphasis. The stock designs are built around a much more deliberate flow of play, where you never need/want 5-6 tons of ammunition for a weapon system; where weapon diversity can be realized benefit rather than a hindrance to your gameplay, and most importantly, works allright in a game where dice determine where you are hit.

While I personally would enjoy a stock mechs battle with other likeminded folks who want a nod towards the old TT game, but it is not something I expect to be effective or ideal in most MWO match play.

Even in battletech, if you play stock mechs against custom mechs, you will lose pretty much every game.

Battletech was a game, and was just as susceptible to min/maxing as any computer game.