95 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Adiuvo, on 05 November 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

If you're ignoring a major part of the game (the mechlab) then yeah, things are going to be difficult for you.

The game should be balanced towards people making optimal setups, not for those who are essentially roleplaying. If it was balanced towards the roleplayers, optimal setups would be terribly overpowered.

Exactly. MWO is not Battletech. PGI just uses the IP to sell their game.

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Then your mechs are terrible.

In games where you aren't limited to stock configurations, you can't hope to be competitive with stock configurations, as they are pretty much garbage across the board.

You've never ran into a JM6-S then

[Roland]

Wolfways, on 05 November 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

You've never ran into a JM6-S then

Yeah, a mech with only 6 tons of armor that moves at 65kph is really scary.
Derp.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Even in battletech, if you play stock mechs against custom mechs, you will lose pretty much every game.

Battletech was a game, and was just as susceptible to min/maxing as any computer game.

I've only ever known one player who used a single customized mech (after getting permission from our gaming group). I guess i'm "old school"
I'd love a stock-only queue. Not sure how well the crappy heat system would work in it though...

[Roland]

Stock games would be cool. Playing crappy mechs against other crappy mechs is interesting, because they end up having a wider variety of different advantages and disadvantages.

But in a regular game with custom mechs, stock mechs tend to all be garbage.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Yeah, a mech with only 6 tons of armor that moves at 65kph is really scary.
Derp.

My JM6-S has almost full armour and 10tons of ammo, and i get the highest match score and damage (and sometimes kills) in most matches.

[Roland]

Wolfways, on 05 November 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

My JM6-S has almost full armour and 10tons of ammo, and i get the highest match score and damage (and sometimes kills) in most matches.

Then it's not a stock JM6-S

[Khobai]

Quote

his is right, but it needs to be paired with significant light buffs as well, especially against bigs. The light buffs will be justified , as mediums will be properly equipped to defend the bigs against lights. Circle of balance, tah dah.

Lights are fine. They go 170 kph now.

Problem is Mediums are still only going 90kph-100kph.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Then it's not a stock JM6-S

I never mentioned stock mechs. I said stock weapons.
My mechs have stock weapons, but added DHS (because it's needed in MWO) and maybe a different engine, endo, etc.
At least they look stock...

[Blue Boutique]

Khobai, on 05 November 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Lights are fine. They go 170 kph now.

Problem is Mediums are still only going 90kph-100kph.

And how is that bad for mediums? 90 kph at 250 m radius is still a threat to any mech.

[Taemien]

AZA311, on 05 November 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Go play Hawken if you want a twitch shooter.

Torso twist and arm speed, anchor pivot, all that......... needs to be reduced in line with mech speed and movement........and not to mention......REALITY!

At the current rate mechs torso twist, pilots would be thrown out the window or suffer massive brain hemorrhage from whiplash.

Who cares how fast your mech moves. Mechs can torso twist on a dime and line up a shot in no time. And no wonder people cry about over powered this alpha powered that.

Can YOU a human being even swivel your upper body that fast? Try it hahahahah........pew pew pew pew

Sounds like someone needs to read TechManual. The 'gryo' in a human being is less then an ounce. The gryo in a mech is a much greater percentage of the mech's total weight. And talking about reality the M1/A2 is capable of quickly swiveling its turret, why couldn't a mech developed in 2750 do it?

As for throwing a pilot from their machine.. ever seen a figure skater? They can twirl within their center of gravity, I assume most mechs who's cockpits are in the center could do the same. And the ones that are offset, well thats what straps are for. The G-force for that amount of a turn isn't that bad. If a Nascar driver can take a turn, I'm sure a pilot of a slower mech could handle it.

Don't bring realism to a debate, when realistic real life examples are far more extreme.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I know that torso twist can be pretty brutal on a pilot's brain... But, as you know, this thread's main purpose is to suggest that increasing Medium Mechs' torso twists are *not* the best way to make the Mediums survive longer and do better in combat against their bigger cousins. Torso twist is an effective way to spread damage, and to provide firepower as you are running away from or past a target...but if you can't round a corner any faster than a Heavy Mech or can't peek in and out of cover any faster, then you're still subject to receiving significant return-fire. Medium Mechs that can't dodge, dip, duck, dive and dodge better than Heavy Mechs will wind up being relegated to rear-line duty where they have to wait for openings to show up for them. Mediums that can out-turn, out-brake, and out-sprint Heavier Mechs can make their own openings without having to boost their actual top speed or their arm/torso movement properties.

[Sybreed]

first thing mediums need is tonnage limits. Then we'll see. Being in a medium doesn't suck if you face a lot of other mediums. It starts to suck when you're the only Centurion against a bunch of Highlanders.

[Murphy7]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Even in battletech, if you play stock mechs against custom mechs, you will lose pretty much every game.

Battletech was a game, and was just as susceptible to min/maxing as any computer game.

That describes about any game anywhere if one group is allowed far more carte blanche than the other.

Tournament play uses stock designs and record sheets, limited by era in some cases, Even then, some designs are flat out better than others, or cheesier than others, but nothing stock could ever touch the cheese to be found in an open customization game - and the stories of how everything was legitimately salvaged, rough campaign, etc. etc.

[FupDup]

Murphy7, on 06 November 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

That describes about any game anywhere if one group is allowed far more carte blanche than the other.

Tournament play uses stock designs and record sheets, limited by era in some cases, Even then, some designs are flat out better than others, or cheesier than others, but nothing stock could ever touch the cheese to be found in an open customization game - and the stories of how everything was legitimately salvaged, rough campaign, etc. etc.

There is one stock build (that I know of) that comes fairly close to being cheesy/munchkin-worthy.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar


It's a heat-neutral, heavily armored, (relatively) fast-moving Clan assault mech with 4 ERPPCs.

Edited by FupDup, 06 November 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

This is worth quoting!

Quote

Among the most deadly weapons in the Clan arsenal, the Hellstar's four Ripper Series A1 Extended Range Particle Projector Cannons, one in each arm and torso, give it the potential to destroy or cripple anything less than another assault 'Mech with a single salvo. While lacking in secondary weapons, the massive volume of heat sinks ensures that barring combat damage the Hellstar can fire its main weapons as fast as they can recharge.

Ok Now I want one!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 November 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Davers]

Sybreed, on 06 November 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

first thing mediums need is tonnage limits. Then we'll see. Being in a medium doesn't suck if you face a lot of other mediums. It starts to suck when you're the only Centurion against a bunch of Highlanders.

Tonnage limits alone will not help medium mechs if their role is better filled by lights and heavies. They need to have their 'own thing'.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Prosperity Park, on 04 November 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I feel that Medium mechs will never be balanced through the tweaking of Torso twist values, as the previous balancing pass focused on.

In order to give Medium Mechs a chance to do what they are supposed to do, which is out-maneuver larger Mechs, they will have to be given better turning radii and better acceleration and deceleration. A fast Torso Twist is a good thing to have when you are trying to spread damage out across your Mech, but that kind of survival feature is better employed by Heavy and Assault Mechs that have enough armor to survive a prolonged combat engagement. Medium Mechs cannot survive prolonged combat engagements with larger Mechs no matter how fast they can twist their torsos.

If Medium Mechs were blessed with the ability to turn sharper and manage their speed better, then they could utilize maneuverability to weave in and out of cover and to run circles around larger Mechs in their struggle to avoid accumulating fatal damage. It should be a common agreement that Medium Mechs are fragile and under gunned compared to all the Heavy and Assault Mechs, but they are too slow and too large to use pure speed and small stature to avoid incoming fire such as the Light Mechs are able to do.

The *only* chance that Medium Mechs have to secure a place on the field is if they have the ability to get in and out of combat rapidly. Tonnage Limitations will not serve to put more Medium Mechs on the field in their current incarnation because an organized team will simply run a mix of Lights and Heavies to keep their weight down instead of running Mediums, because Heavies can out-fight the Mediums (hands down) and Lights can perform capping, spotting, and scouting better than Mediums. Mediums have no role right now because they cannot out-maneuver Heavy Mechs with big engines, and they cannot out-run Lights.

Giving Mediums the ability to turn sharper, stop faster, and get going quicker will provide them with a chance to fight and survive to tell the tale; Giving Medium Mechs a faster Torso Twist will only give them the chance to survive for 5 seconds longer before they die horribly. Does anyone else feel this way?

You do know that if you slow down slightly you will turn in a tighter circle, also if you are Twisted all the way over and turning in the same direction, pressing the C button and reversing your turn will snap you gun sights right onto the light on the other side before he has time to react to your manouver.

Also, only the bigger Mediums are built for front line use. the smaller ones are built to support the battle or kill the lights.


Signed a Jenner Pilot who does 400-600 damage on at least 2 drops a night with twin streaks and 3SL

Edited by Randalf Yorgen, 06 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Murphy7]

FupDup, on 06 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

There is one stock build (that I know of) that comes fairly close to being cheesy/munchkin-worthy.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar


It's a heat-neutral, heavily armored, (relatively) fast-moving Clan assault mech with 4 ERPPCs.

Yeah, the Rifleman IIc is a real beauty as well, favored amongst the BPV only set for tourny play.

Real love for the Clan Large Pulse Lasers for their punch and accuracy.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Davers, on 06 November 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Tonnage limits alone will not help medium mechs if their role is better filled by lights and heavies. They need to have their 'own thing'.

Yeah, that's my concern. If Medium Mechs remain sluggish, then they will simply be overlooked in favor of Heavies and Lights. A team can reduce its weight more efficiently by dropping Assaults and taking Heavies instead, rather than by dropping Heavies in favor of Mediums. Mediums need a role other than "denial of tonnage" because that's exactly how I seem them now.

[KingCobra]

WOW 2 years ago I had a topic and posts on this very subject and more all along till today we have tried to tell PGI/DEVS the maneuverability of the mechs was SUBPAR and needed fixed but with this company only 2 bulbs in the chandelier are lighting up.