60 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

Profiteer, on 05 November 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

You want my take on it?

2/3rds of the player base simply can't aim and ***** about how op lights are because they can't hit them.

Every time they release a new mech there will be an influx of that mech on the field. Thus they don't want to p1ss off the newbs by having lots of fast light mechs buzzing around while "Captain Blind Scrub" spins his Atlas in circles shooting wildly and hitting his team-mates more than the enemy.

That settles it. When UI 2.0 rolls around I have one of my 4 Atlas names. "Captain Blind Scrub." Thank you

[MonkeyCheese]

Ghost Badger, on 06 November 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

That settles it. When UI 2.0 rolls around I have one of my 4 Atlas names. "Captain Blind Scrub." Thank you

Why not all 4?

[Ertur]

Atlas hero last month, Catapult hero this month, and the expectation is for a Hunchback hero next month. Am I wrong to expect a Jenner hero in January?

[Silentium]

Ertur, on 06 November 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Atlas hero last month, Catapult hero this month, and the expectation is for a Hunchback hero next month. Am I wrong to expect a Jenner hero in January?

Seems reasonable, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[RandomLurker]

Should do a timeline graph of mech releases as well.

[shintakie]

Ertur, on 06 November 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Atlas hero last month, Catapult hero this month, and the expectation is for a Hunchback hero next month. Am I wrong to expect a Jenner hero in January?

What could we expect from a hero Jenner?

Ballistics would definitely differentiate it from the other Jenners, but it'd be pretty lolworthy.

There's already a full energy Jenner.

Oh, how about somethin completely ridiculous.

Stay with me here.

Its a Jenner...with arm missiles instead of lasers. SRM/2, SRM/4 on each arm with 3 tons of ammo and a CT ML. Stock FF, Endo, no JJ's (to really make it wonky compared to other Jenners), 11 heatsinks, and an XL300 engine.

No ghost heat penalties and its vastly different than every other Jenner.

[-Muta-]

PEEFsmash, on 05 November 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Combine this with the fact that PGI says they won't be releasing a Light Hero until Spring? Don't you think it is the Light's turn? If they really do wait until Spring, then they will have released 14 Medium/Heavy/Assault Heroes imbetween Light Heroes, (the first and only of which is a pretty bad variant, compared to most of the Heavy and Assault Heroes that are quality, usable variants).

I was so happy about a new light mech... BUT THE LOCUST?!

Simply a SDR 5K wanna be with NO JJ's

come one <sighs>

[FupDup]

shintakie, on 07 November 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

What could we expect from a hero Jenner?

Ballistics would definitely differentiate it from the other Jenners, but it'd be pretty lolworthy.

There's already a full energy Jenner.

Oh, how about somethin completely ridiculous.

Stay with me here.

Its a Jenner...with arm missiles instead of lasers. SRM/2, SRM/4 on each arm with 3 tons of ammo and a CT ML. Stock FF, Endo, no JJ's (to really make it wonky compared to other Jenners), 11 heatsinks, and an XL300 engine.

No ghost heat penalties and its vastly different than every other Jenner.

People would turn it into a Baby Streaktaro.

[Hillslam]

... and yet matches are swarming with lights.

Its the mediums who need more love.

Still - I will agree the light pilots need more choices. And a way to generate cash with a (H) bonus like the other classes. I think light heroes would generate PGI money.

[Felio]

It costs them the same to make a light mech as it does an assault, but they price them very differently.

They must have thought they'd make it up in volume -- the TDK is so cheap -- but then they went and screwed up the balance and made more tonnage = better mech. The market for light mechs is very small because very few players can do well in them. The market for larger mechs is huge because most players can do pretty well in them.

They have no one to blame but themselves on light mechs not making them much money. I'm waiting to see how they fix it.

[Corwin Vickers]

where is the 6mg spider???

Name it DAKKA

Make the hitboxes pencil thin

charge $20

Profit

[Sephlock]

Is there really all that much you can do with the hardpoints on a light mech?

More importantly, is there really all that much you can do with the hardpoints on a light hero mech WITHOUT making other light mechs (particularly other light hero mechs) obsolete, or ending up with a redundant hero mech?

[MonkeyCheese]

Sephlock, on 14 November 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Is there really all that much you can do with the hardpoints on a light mech?

More importantly, is there really all that much you can do with the hardpoints on a light hero mech WITHOUT making other light mechs (particularly other light hero mechs) obsolete, or ending up with a redundant hero mech?

I have actually thought about this topic.

for example
- a spider hero could get energy on the arms but that would kill the thing the deaths knell has going with its nicely aimable energy arms.
- putting missiles on a hero spider (see x-5 cicada) would make commandos somewhat more pointless.

tho moving missiles/ballistics/energy around on a hero raven/jenner could be a fresh breath of air, missile armed or say a ballistic side torso, but until we get more light ballistic weapons from the lore we are stuck with mg and then a huge weight leap to the ac2.

Personally I think they really need to go unique to the extreme like how the deaths knell is compared to other commandos, for example the lrm15 jenner.

JR7-K Jenner Samuli
A customized Jenner for MechWarrior Samuli Rinne, which is in the service of House Kurita. The 'Mech's engine was upgraded with a 245 rated XL Engine and 3.5 tons of Ferro-Fibrous Armor. By removing the standard SRM launcher, DCMS techs freed enough room to add CASE and a single LRM-15 with two tons of ammunition. Rinne's Jenner keeps the standard complement of Medium Lasers. BV (1.0) = 774

Sure it aint everyones dream jenner but it is unique and they could always do extra hardpoints like how the A1 catapult comes stock with an lrm15 per ear but it has 3 missile harpoints in each ear. So eg stock it could be a jenner that fires 15 lrms at once out of a side torso but comes with 2-3 missile hardpoints in that torso.

For the Ravens the 3m also has a lrm15 launcher and most other ravens seem to use more advanced tech so we could just get a made up hero.

Same goes for most of the spiders with advanced tech but they could still just simply do the venom as a hero. I know it is 5 tons heavier but pgi could just stick it in as 30 or 35 tons, people would cry either way but even at 35 tons the jenners and ravens will out hardpoint/outgun it so I dont actually see it being that big of a problem.

As for the locust..... well doing anything in a match would make you a hero but that idea going around with a hero locust that has all 3 weapon hardpoint types sounds nice in theory but I cant even get my 4x raven to feel right trying to use all 3 hardpoint types, its either go big on the energy or go big on the ballistic for me.

Just seems to me that every kind of weapon combination is already possible with light mechs and even a light that can launch all 15 lrms at once may be possible when the modular weapon passes come for the ravens. I think we need new weapons types more than anything for variety.

[HammerSwarm]

I've wanted to say this for a while but without actually studying the data I have been hesitant. I am going to ask it as a question to those who know more about the BT expanded universe than I do.

Do more notable people pilot more of the expensive and heartier mechs than oh say the lighter more easily destroyed mechs?

It would make sense to me that this is so. If I were Davion royalty I would want to be under as much armor and with as many weapons as I could be to gain glory faster than say in a light where I'd be asked to move forward onto the front lines.

[Mindwipe]

HammerSwarm, on 14 November 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've wanted to say this for a while but without actually studying the data I have been hesitant. I am going to ask it as a question to those who know more about the BT expanded universe than I do.

Do more notable people pilot more of the expensive and heartier mechs than oh say the lighter more easily destroyed mechs?

It would make sense to me that this is so. If I were Davion royalty I would want to be under as much armor and with as many weapons as I could be to gain glory faster than say in a light where I'd be asked to move forward onto the front lines.

It's actually all over the place in BT history. Some like the Yen-Lo-Wang are well known, Justin Allard, who piloted the YLW, had a brother who used a Valkyrie (30 ton LRM scout) for a long time, then I believe he switched to a Wolfhound. Two of the bigger merc units (Wolf's Dragoons and Kell Hounds) had commanders who used Archers exclusively (70 ton LRM boat). Hanse Davion used a Battlemaster. Honestly until the Clan era, you really didn't get your 'royalty' fighting on the front lines much. I believe Hanse's brother Ian died using an Atlas. Alexander Kerensky used an Orion while one of his more famous generals had an Atlas.

Later on the young nobles used Clan Daishi's (100 ton). But for the most part in canon fluff assaults are truly rare and even most higher ups won't have one since it's wasteful to give such a valuable machine to someone who shouldn't be on the front lines. Heavies seem to be the mech of choice for many commanders keeping in mind their command lances usually had several assaults to put off headhunting units.

There are also Mechs that are noted to be better in a command role due to better targeting and/or comm systems such as the Marauder, the Cyclops, and the Battlemaster. As well, the game didn't have hundreds of mechs to choose from originally. So written fluff used what was available in game whether or not it was appropriate or practical. Most old timers will wax on about the 'Unseen' or older mechs but the truth is that most of them were pretty horrible in game. Overheating nightmares with not nearly enough armour to be good (I'm looking at you Rifleman and Warhammer).

TL:DR - almost all weight classes are accounted for in canon fluff in leadership roles, its generally specific chassis fluff strengths (or the era the book was written) that dictates what is used.

[HammerSwarm]

Mindwipe, on 14 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

It's actually all over the place in BT history. Some like the Yen-Lo-Wang are well known, Justin Allard, who piloted the YLW, had a brother who used a Valkyrie (30 ton LRM scout) for a long time, then I believe he switched to a Wolfhound. Two of the bigger merc units (Wolf's Dragoons and Kell Hounds) had commanders who used Archers exclusively (70 ton LRM boat). Hanse Davion used a Battlemaster. Honestly until the Clan era, you really didn't get your 'royalty' fighting on the front lines much. I believe Hanse's brother Ian died using an Atlas. Alexander Kerensky used an Orion while one of his more famous generals had an Atlas.

Later on the young nobles used Clan Daishi's (100 ton). But for the most part in canon fluff assaults are truly rare and even most higher ups won't have one since it's wasteful to give such a valuable machine to someone who shouldn't be on the front lines. Heavies seem to be the mech of choice for many commanders keeping in mind their command lances usually had several assaults to put off headhunting units.

There are also Mechs that are noted to be better in a command role due to better targeting and/or comm systems such as the Marauder, the Cyclops, and the Battlemaster. As well, the game didn't have hundreds of mechs to choose from originally. So written fluff used what was available in game whether or not it was appropriate or practical. Most old timers will wax on about the 'Unseen' or older mechs but the truth is that most of them were pretty horrible in game. Overheating nightmares with not nearly enough armour to be good (I'm looking at you Rifleman and Warhammer).

TL:DR - almost all weight classes are accounted for in canon fluff in leadership roles, its generally specific chassis fluff strengths (or the era the book was written) that dictates what is used.

You kinda answered my question, thank you. I would assert that based on your answer the distribution of larger mechs being the heroic mechs is understandable. Am I miss reading?

Does anyone have any other thoughts?

[Mindwipe]

HammerSwarm, on 14 November 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

You kinda answered my question, thank you. I would assert that based on your answer the distribution of larger mechs being the heroic mechs is understandable. Am I miss reading?

Does anyone have any other thoughts?

I'd say at a quick glance through my dusty memories that there is probably more use of light and medium mechs over heavy/assault. Pretty much follows the 30/40/20/10% distribution that is supposed to exist.

Heroic Mech is purely a MWO thing. While some of them do exist in canon most of them aren't listed as anything beyond a normal model. The degree of customization that we use in MWO simply doesn't happen in canon. Most of the mechs used in the books are nothing more than a stock model of their type. Only a few like YLW and I think Pretty Baby are noted to have quirks beyond their chassis.

That said, I think the earlier posts which stated that light heroes are simply hard to design where they aren't either useless or completely replace other lights is probably true. I'm also cynical enough to think that the bad pricing model PGI/IGP chose to use encourages them to develop the heavier models to maximize profit.

[aniviron]

What I'm getting from the thread is this:

Can't have ballistics almost at all on a light hero, because ballistics on lights are bad.

Can't have all missiles on lights because it would be an OP SSRM2 nightmare, and would make the people who could afford the best mech be the best at light-v-light combat.

Can't do all lasers, because almost everything already has an all-laser setup or has a mech with enough energy hardpoints to make use of an all-laser setup.

So the remaining option is to use a mix of lasers and missiles, but that's pretty lackluster, and only the Spider lacks a missile + energy variant.

Conclusion: PGI's poor balancing for lights has painted them into a corner for light heroes, and anything we get will either be Pretty-Baby levels of bad or fill a weird unique niche (triple ams??).

[Alistair Winter]

Hardpoints isn't the only way of coming up with new alternatives.

How about a Jenner with fewer hardpoints, but bigger engine cap? A Jenner doing 170 kph would be kinda cool. Or how about a Jenner with fewer hardpoints, but 8 jump jets?

You could argue that this would make the Locust and Spider obsolete. But the Locust is already obsolete, and once hit registration is fixed, any Spider without ECM is obsolete too.

[RavensScar]

I think the other problem with light mechs and / or light heroes is that you can't buy XL engines for MC. Most light builds really require a large XL to work, which ends up being a hell of a lot of grind. A well equipped light ends up costing pretty much the same as an assault.

So while you can buy a decent, if not perfect heavy or assault just with MC, to get a fully kitted out light, you can buy the chassis cheaply for MC, but then have to spend a lot of CB to actually make it effective.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting engines should be made available for MC - I like the current model. Just trying to point out something else that makes lights less appealing to spend MC on.

Edited by RavensScar, 16 November 2013 - 02:59 AM.