125 replies to this topic

[Roadbeer]

There are 6 weapon groups, and a wide variety of energy weapons.

You don't have to have them all on one button firing at once. Expand your game experience.


DERP
Alpha strike
DERP

Victor Morson, on 05 November 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

If you want to be effective with it you need to put it on a macro. Most 4 Large Laser K2s doing it effectively are running macros.

Nope

Edited by Roadbeer, 05 November 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Mercules]

Roadbeer, on 05 November 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

There are 6 weapon groups, and a wide variety of energy weapons.

You don't have to have them all on one button firing at once. Expand your game experience.

Hush logic, you have no place in this!

[Sandpit]

Every single player on here complaining and QQing about not being able to run 4+ LL is either ignorant on how to use them properly, lying, or just a poor pilot.

Want to know how I know that? You have SEVERAL pilots in this very thread telling you how they do it. So do those pilots who are able to do exactly what you're saying can't be done have some sort of magical powers?

The truly funny thing? Not a single QQer in this thread bothers responding to those posts.

[FupDup]

Roadbeer, on 05 November 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

There are 6 weapon groups, and a wide variety of energy weapons.
---

Do you actually use all 6?

[Bilbo]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Every single player on here complaining and QQing about not being able to run 4+ LL is either ignorant on how to use them properly, lying, or just a poor pilot.

Want to know how I know that? You have SEVERAL pilots in this very thread telling you how they do it. So do those pilots who are able to do exactly what you're saying can't be done have some sort of magical powers?

The truly funny thing? Not a single QQer in this thread bothers responding to those posts.

They all know how to make them work. They just want them to work with a single click without penalty. They need their 30+ point click without penalty or the build won't work the way they would like.

[Victor Morson]

PEEFsmash, on 05 November 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

You make it sound like they are actively and continually nerfing energy boats.....but what, since Ghost Heat, have they done to make you think that?

That's not my problem; my problem is they nerf'ed them out at the core with Ghost Heat, but keep churning our variants that are energy heavy.

What is the point of 6 energy slots if you can only run a mix of crappy guns that would be better off on a 'mech that can also run ballistics and/or missiles? The only mechs that actually get use out of that now are sub 50 tons, mostly Jenners.

[Roadbeer]

FupDup, on 05 November 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Do you actually use all 6?

Depends on the build, some have 2, some use all 6.

Do you put your PPC and Medium Lasers and machine guns in the same weapon group?

[FupDup]

Roadbeer, on 05 November 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Depends on the build, some have 2, some use all 6.

Do you put your PPC and Medium Lasers and machine guns in the same weapon group?

No I don't, for obvious reasons.

And really, using 6 groups is just impractical because you have to spend more time reaching for buttons. 3 is probably the sweet spot, but 4 is doable if one of them is guided missiles (LRMs or SSRMs). Any more than that is basically a frankenmech that had its loadout configured by spinning a wheel of fortune to decide which weapons to mount.

[Victor Morson]

Bilbo, on 05 November 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

They all know how to make them work. They just want them to work with a single click without penalty. They need their 30+ point click without penalty or the build won't work the way they would like.

They need to be competitive with other other weapon loadouts that can pull a 30+ per click damage slug without the risk of frying your 'mech entirely if you misjudge the timing (unless you run a macro).

Ghost Heat is incredibly illogical and is not based around damage value. The quickest way I have to sum up why Ghost Heat is broken and not accomplishing this goal anytime anyone defends it is simple missile "maths":

3x LRM10 1x LRM20 = 4 LRM/20 Ghost Heat (32.06 HEAT!) for 50 missiles.
2x LRM20 2x LRM5 = Absolutely no Ghost Heat (0 HEAT) for 50 missiles.

This goes way, way, way past LRMs. The point I'm making is Ghost Heat isn't actually stopping high alpha hits, period; it's just making us get around the system as much as possible.

Why take a 'mech that does moderately less damage than other builds that I also have to micromanage under the thread of shutting down / frying myself constantly when so many alternatives exist? It's not making me take the suicidal guns and "act tactically" with them, it made me abandon them.

[Roadbeer]

FupDup, on 05 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

No I don't, for obvious reasons.

And really, using 6 groups is just impractical because you have to spend more time reaching for buttons. 3 is probably the sweet spot, but 4 is doable if one of them is guided missiles (LRMs or SSRMs). Any more than that is basically a frankenmech that had its loadout configured by spinning a wheel of fortune to decide which weapons to mount.

I agree, but I'll sometimes use those otherwise unused weapon groups for situational firing... like firing one PPC instead of firing both and having the left side go into a building for no good reason other than to generate heat.

[focuspark]

wait... you do not need external macros to manage ghost heat - chain-fire works nicely in my experience.

nothing stops you from chain-firing Large Lasers in pairs. This is how I do SRM4 chain firing on my CPLT-A1. Just setup two weapon groups, both set to chain-fire. Fire both groups at the same time. Every 0.5 seconds two weapons fire, no heat penalties.

That said, "ghost heat" complete {Scrap}. Makes MWO's ECM looks reasonable though doesn't it?

Edited by focuspark, 05 November 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Tyman4]

BIG PURPLE 2x AMS JENNER AHHHHH!!!!!! We Need more ghost heat PGI QUICK!!!!! It should take DAYS to get through my armor!!! Just because I get shot once I should be okay!!!!! Don't let anyone shoot their guns all together the DAMAGE is just TOO high!!!!

That's what I'm hearing....

[Sandpit]

Quote

What is the point of 6 energy slots if you can only run a mix of crappy guns that would be better off on a 'mech that can also run ballistics and/or missiles? The only mechs that actually get use out of that now are sub 50 tons, mostly Jenners.

Soooooooooooo my 5LL Stalker that has all 5 LLs in weapon group one doesn't work how? Oh, wait, it DOES work. I just don't fire off every single one of them at one time in an alpha strike every time I hit the trigger. It's called chain fire. Just because you can't alpha strike (which in ANY reference to ANY Btech scenario is ALWAYS referred to a LAST-DITCH EFFORT) doesn't make any of those weapons useless.

[Khobai]

Quote

They all know how to make them work. They just want them to work with a single click without penalty. They need their 30+ point click without penalty or the build won't work the way they would like.

They know how to make them work. But the reality is 2 PPCs fired together, backed up by AC/5s, is still way more effective than 4 LLs fired in pairs. The only way to bring parity between PPCs and LLs is not to penalize LLs. Just get rid of ghost heat because it adds nothing beneficial to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Its so that no one can accuse them of producing a P2W mech.

[Victor Morson]

Roadbeer, on 05 November 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

There are 6 weapon groups, and a wide variety of energy weapons.

You don't have to have them all on one button firing at once. Expand your game experience.

Good luck with the guy running AC/5s & PPCs then, you'll need it.

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Soooooooooooo my 5LL Stalker that has all 5 LLs in weapon group one doesn't work how? Oh, wait, it DOES work. I just don't fire off every single one of them at one time in an alpha strike every time I hit the trigger. It's called chain fire. Just because you can't alpha strike (which in ANY reference to ANY Btech scenario is ALWAYS referred to a LAST-DITCH EFFORT) doesn't make any of those weapons useless.

What people fail to understand is while you can limp along and make this sort of work, any properly design 'mech will utterly obliterate it. This is key. Because you can do well in pugs chaining through 5 lasers doesn't mean that it's a good thing or will last against a good 'mech.

And here is why:

OK, say you fire in groups of 2, 2 and 1. OK. Now each set of lasers takes 1 full second to discharge.

Now say you are PERFECT with your timing sans Macro, so not to lose ANY DPS, and nail it precisely at 0.50 seconds.

This means you have to keep the target - and the location you are aiming at - in direct LOS under your crosshairs for 2.5 full seconds. Realistically however you WON'T be timing perfectly, expanding that number to 3+ seconds.

Meanwhile a guy with AC/5 and PPC needs to keep you in sight for heavy damage for 0.1 seconds.

The 1 second discharge is an acceptable trade-off for hitscan if they can fire together. Otherwise all you are doing by "learning to pilot" that mech is learning to pilot a dead end weapon system. You're like people clinging to arrows in the age of gunpowder, because it kinda sorta still works.

EDIT: Remember, spread out damage is no good either. So that's 3+ seconds on a single component. There is no way someone competent will stand around and let you have that long of a shot at any given area.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 November 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Deathlike]

The answer to the thread title: Irony

But seriously, the Quickdraw-5K is already superior to the Jester.

[Mister Blastman]

Khobai, on 05 November 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Time to remove ghost heat. Mechs like the Jester make it blatantly obvious why it was such a terrible idea in the first place.

Can we explore some other options? Like making PPCs do splash damage?

THIS

*shameless plug from another thread*

How about make the PPC a beam weapon instead of a ballistic one? The farther away from you the target, the more the beam spreads out when it hits--or "splash." The closer the target the better the focus but still will deal damage over a a .25 second interval allowing for some spread.

This way you remove front-loading at range and you reduce it up close making it have additional pros and cons.

OR... do the opposite. Make it have MORE splash the closer an enemy gets (i.e. less focused beam) and better focus the closer the enemy is to optimal range. At optimal range it is a perfect pinpoint shot with a .25 second beam interval. Go beyond optimal range... it starts losing focus again and spreading out once more, causing lesser amounts of damage to multiple areas of the mech instead of just in one spot (for a total of less than 10 pts damage).

This way it is kept a long-range weapon but has severe drawbacks of being used up close with reduced effectiveness thereby removing it as a swiss army knife of a weapon. All of a sudden, pushing a pack of snipers is meaningful because say at 250 meters they hit you, they still do 10 pts of damage but that damage only deals 4 to 5 pts in the spot they aimed at and the remaining points of damage are spread to adjacent areas due to the beam losing convergence.

Lastly, within 90 meters for the regular PPC, give it the ability to press a button to bypass the feedback inhibitor. It regains some focus but you run the risk of blowing up the weapon or worse, causing damage to yourself (maybe shorting out your radar/HUD for seconds to a minute or more).

Couple all this with reducing medium/small/medium pulse by 1 pt of heat while dramatically decreasing the beam duration for pulse lasers.

I think this would be an awesome and satisfying addition to the game.

It would give it not only better weapons diversity but also make it feel more sim-like.

And... one more.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2894736

[Khobai]

Quote

But seriously, the Quickdraw-5K is already superior to the Jester.

the thunderbolt with jumpjets is superior as well

[Mercules]

FupDup, on 05 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

No I don't, for obvious reasons.

And really, using 6 groups is just impractical because you have to spend more time reaching for buttons. 3 is probably the sweet spot, but 4 is doable if one of them is guided missiles (LRMs or SSRMs). Any more than that is basically a frankenmech that had its loadout configured by spinning a wheel of fortune to decide which weapons to mount.

Um, what? Do you not own a modern mouse? Razer Naga and Naga Hex come to mind. I have never wasted time "reaching" for buttons in MWO. I've had every weapon group utilized on mechs before.

Victor Morson, on 05 November 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

The quickest way I have to sum up why Ghost Heat is broken and not accomplishing this goal anytime anyone defends it is simple missile "maths":

3x LRM10 1x LRM20 = 4 LRM/20 Ghost Heat (32.06 HEAT!) for 50 missiles.
2x LRM20 2x LRM5 = Absolutely no Ghost Heat (0 HEAT) for 50 missiles.

Hey simple "maths" did you forget that only a few mechs can actually mount 2x LRM20s and not fire them in two small groups much less have LRM5s alongside them. So yeah a couple mechs can avoid ghost heat and fire 50 missiles in one salvo.