125 replies to this topic

[LawDawg]

Tears, Yummy Tears...........

[LoveLost85]

Trauglodyte, on 05 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of the fluff pilots pushing one button and watching their enemies melt. Unfortunately, due to both game design and laziness on the part of players, which sadly gets dressed up and disguised as efficiency and skill, everyone wants to Alpha every target they see. Then, they winge and moan about ghost heat when it is their own play style which created the hinderance that they hate so much.

I logged in JUST to quote this and say.....Every person who plays this game should read this single paragraph.

[Victor Morson]

Kattspya, on 05 November 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

I agree with you but don't play dumb. There is an intercourseload of difference between 40 pin point and 20 pin point and 36 spread.

At AC/20 typical ranges, most all of that SRM damage is going exactly where I want it and generally impacting the same location as the AC/20, so yeah.

And also, like he said, PPC + AC/20 = Very popular and again, more raw damage-per-salvo than twin AC/20s.

I keep feeling like people defend Ghost Heat around here primarily on it's "campaign promises" and not what it's actually accomplished.

[aniviron]

Trauglodyte, on 05 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of the fluff pilots pushing one button and watching their enemies melt. Unfortunately, due to both game design and laziness on the part of players, which sadly gets dressed up and disguised as efficiency and skill, everyone wants to Alpha every target they see. Then, they winge and moan about ghost heat when it is their own play style which created the hinderance that they hate so much.

It has nothing to do with "laziness." It's the way the game is designed; putting damage on one single part of the mech is ALWAYS superior to spreading it out. There are no exceptions. No matter what you hit, it is always always better to do 40 damage to a section and destroy it than to do 10 damage to 4 sections. Doing all your damage to one section either kills outright, removes weapons and heatsinks, or a leg; all three of those outcomes are obviously incredibly beneficial to you. Spreading out your damage just means you're taking more time to eventually destroy one part; but if you're facing someone who doesn't spread out their damage, like an autocannon boat, then they will kill or main your mech long before you even remove their armor.

I suppose you could say alpha vs chain is lazy if every mech were incapable of movement and all that mattered was damage per second, but generally speaking you have small half-second windows when your opponent is facing you and firing or exposed in a bad position to deal your damage to places that matter; during all other times, he is twisting and spreading the damage out.

So no, it's not just because players are lazy that they prefer alpha strikes. It's just better tactics. It means you can hit and then move, instead of having to face your opponent and let him take shots at you. It means you don't spread your damage out as much. Ghost heat was explicitly intended to have this effect of forcing players to chainfire and spread their damage to extend battle durations; unfortunately, it is only effective on lasers, ppcs, and ac20s. So yes, as long as there is ghost heat and that ghost heat does not affect ac2s, 5s, and 10s, energy boats are at a significant disadvantage.

[LawDawg]

"But but, i spent MC on a mech............shouldnt I PWNZ?" There is the issue gents. The P2W mentality so many of these game have brought on.

[Victor Morson]

LoveLost85, on 05 November 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

I logged in JUST to quote this and say.....Every person who plays this game should read this single paragraph.

Perhaps you should also include:

"The BattleTech universe was designed around builds that with a luck of the die could roll behind someone with 12 small lasers, with every single one having a chance to randomly hit a ton of machine gun ammo and explode the 'mech instantly. The BattleTech universe was designed around not just 3 & 4 PPC 'mechs but introducing new tech like the Clan Large Pulse and Targeting Computers that could let you kneecap everything you see. The BattleTech universe was designed around putting randomly bad guns so they'd have ammo to explode on them damn it, don't you understand? It must be that way!"

[Koniving]

Energy boat combo, unite! Because, uh, energy boat! http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c28c6d28eb5d532

Or here. Simply chain fire. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de5d98f1f3c5de9

[Victor Morson]

aniviron, on 05 November 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

A great post

+1 for summing it up perfectly.

Koniving, on 05 November 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Energy boat combo, unite! Because, uh, energy boat! http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c28c6d28eb5d532

Or here. Simply chain fire. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de5d98f1f3c5de9

Jester /w 5 LL - Needing a (assuming macro) 5 second on-target window to discharge all guns
K2 /w 2 AC20 - Needing a .6 second window to discharge all guns for slightly more damage

The winner.... you decide.

Now, if the Jester /w 5 LL had a 1 second discharge time, and could fire all 5 LL, we'd have a 'mech that could compete.

[Mercules]

Victor Morson, on 05 November 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

At AC/20 typical ranges, most all of that SRM damage is going exactly where I want it and generally impacting the same location as the AC/20, so yeah.

And also, like he said, PPC + AC/20 = Very popular and again, more raw damage-per-salvo than twin AC/20s.

I keep feeling like people defend Ghost Heat around here primarily on it's "campaign promises" and not what it's actually accomplished.

AC/20 typical range? You realize that at 540meters an AC/20 is still doing 10 damage while SRMs do nothing. At 271 meters AC/20s are doing 19 damage and SRMs nothing. AC/20 typical ranges are from in your face where the SRMs might hit a single portion of a mech with a significant amount of them, to about 550 meters where SRMs do nothing.

2xPPC + AC/20 = 40 damage for 27 heat. 2x AC/20 = 40 damage for 23.5 heat. Please, keep going with these arguments. I love them.

[Kattspya]

Victor Morson, on 05 November 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

At AC/20 typical ranges, most all of that SRM damage is going exactly where I want it and generally impacting the same location as the AC/20, so yeah.

And also, like he said, PPC + AC/20 = Very popular and again, more raw damage-per-salvo than twin AC/20s.

I keep feeling like people defend Ghost Heat around here primarily on it's "campaign promises" and not what it's actually accomplished.

Did you miss the part where I said I agree?

EDIT: Hint: it was in the first half of the post.

Edited by Kattspya, 05 November 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Key words I've picked out along the way from the OP...

Competitive
Maximize


So, what we have here is a meta-humper who can't think past high damage alpha strikes. There will be no reasoning because it doesn't fit into their narrative of how the game MUST be played to be competitive...

/yawn

/thread

[Zyllos]

Trauglodyte, on 05 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of the fluff pilots pushing one button and watching their enemies melt. Unfortunately, due to both game design and laziness on the part of players, which sadly gets dressed up and disguised as efficiency and skill, everyone wants to Alpha every target they see. Then, they winge and moan about ghost heat when it is their own play style which created the hinderance that they hate so much.

So much this...

SOOOOO much...

[Lightfoot]

If you check Battletech there is no Ghost Heat and the mechs were all rated to fire like weapons as a group (what the newbies call an alpha). Mechs can single-fire, chain-fire, or group-fire their weapons. Group-fire is not an Alpha-Strike. Alpha-Strike is firing all weapons at once regardless of type or spread, and so is a special case attack. Group-fire is the normal firing method for mechs. If you check your HUD you will see you are given six firing groups for this very reason.

The cunundrum for energy boat Assaults and Heavies is that Mediums can boat the same energy loadouts, if they are optimally constructed in Mechlab, optimal here means you have full use of your weapons and don't shutdown much from continuous firing. If your mech is always overheating you have too many energy weapons on your energy-only mech. Which is what happens when you try running Heavy and Assault level energy-only configs in MWO. Like the default Stock loadouts for the AWS-8Q and AWS-9M, unsupported by MWO, and that is a problem MWO will have to resolve.

[sokitumi]

Trauglodyte, on 05 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of .... blah blah blah

There are plenty of boats in your BT books..

MW IS NOT BT.. it never has been.. of the 2, it's always been the better game. Balancing a FPS/Simulator to a (poorly balanced in the first place) 1985 hex game is an excercise in futility. And in pgi's purist attempts we end up with convoluted poorly documented elements that massively affect gameplay in order to force people into overly complicated configs.

I'd be fine with purist approach if it was done well and not just some poorly implemented hinderance. If we're going to be purist .... I wish pgi could actually make some AI to create a more immersive world space. You know things like... base turrets, convoys, etc etc. But instead of moving forward on cool stuff, what they end up doing is taking good things (how heat has been in EVERY MW to date) and changing it cater to... well... dorks...

Edited by sokitumi, 05 November 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Tyman4]

Look lets take an example- say we up ghost heat, make it hotter for less weapons, too the extreme

Eventually everyone has 1 weapon of each type and none of them can be fired together. Convergence of weapons will be awful due to movement and torso twist so, yes you can stay alive longer. Yes you get to spend more time in your bang bang stompy robot.

BUT, if someone is an ***** and charges directly into my line of fire , or crosses in front of me without looking , or (insert stupid tactical decision). They should lose becuase they are being dumb. Therefore I prefer Lethality over Armor in this game. You want to stay alive longer use your brain, but don't nerf other peoples' guns. I want my Mech my Way. If someone else's build is more lethal or I make a mistake I should die, simple as that. Ghost heat is stupid. Just change the base heat if you want to balance a little bit, PGI increased PPC heat after Ghost heat was implemented anyway.

OP: The jester is a stupid money grab by PGI and will not change the game balance in any way IMO.

[Mercules]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

MW IS NOT BT.. it never has been..

It's always been. No Battletech and Mechwarrior never existed.

[Hellcat420]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

MW IS NOT BT.. it never has been.. of the 2, it's always been the better game. Balancing a FPS/Simulator to a (poorly balanced in the first place) 1985 hex game is an excercise in futility. And in pgi's purist attempts we end up with convoluted poorly documented elements that massively affect gameplay in order to force people into overly complicated configs.

and further correct me if i'm wrong.. but there are plenty of boats in your BT books..

I'd be fine with purist approach if it was done well and not just some hinderance. And also if pgi could actually make some AI to be more immersive. You know things like... base turrets, convoys, etc etc. But instead of moving forward on cool stuff, what they end up doing is taking good things (how heat has been in EVERY MW to date) and changing it cater to... well... dorks...

actually mechwarrior is part of battletech, and has been longer than the video games have existed.

[Sandpit]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

MW IS NOT BT.. it never has been.. of the 2, it's always been the better game. Balancing a FPS/Simulator to a (poorly balanced in the first place) 1985 hex game is an excercise in futility. And in pgi's purist attempts we end up with convoluted poorly documented elements that massively affect gameplay in order to force people into overly complicated configs.

and further correct me if i'm wrong.. but there are plenty of boats in your BT books..

I'd be fine with purist approach if it was done well and not just some poorly implemented hinderance. If we're going to be purist .... I wish pgi could actually make some AI to create a more immersive world space. You know things like... base turrets, convoys, etc etc. But instead of moving forward on cool stuff, what they end up doing is taking good things (how heat has been in EVERY MW to date) and changing it cater to... well... dorks...

uhm Mechwarrior was a companion to Btech. Woudl you like me to post pics of the source book?

[Hellcat420]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

uhm Mechwarrior was a companion to Btech. Woudl you like me to post pics of the source book?

lol i was going to do that when i got home from work

[sokitumi]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

uhm Mechwarrior was a companion to Btech. Woudl you like me to post pics of the source book?

Mercules, on 05 November 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

It's always been. No Battletech and Mechwarrior never existed.

Hellcat420, on 05 November 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

actually mechwarrior is part of battletech, and has been longer than the video games have existed.

facepalm. how is communication even possible with this? We all know where it came from. But what you BT people don't get, is that MW stands on it's own, it always has. And side by side, MW as a computer game has ALWAYS BEEN BETTER than BT as a hex game.

Regressing MW (square peg) into BT (round hole) is futile and will only make a FPS/SIM more sucky.

Edited by sokitumi, 05 November 2013 - 04:02 PM.