284 replies to this topic

[RamsoPanzer]

Its only an invented story that never happened and will never happen. Thats why you can find many flaws or holes, like in every invented story. It is like it is, i really find interesting how people make from this things such a big deal ^^

[Vanguard319]

Mech The Dane, on 10 November 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Cuz if the clans won then people's favorite factions might have been removed and they would have been upset and stopped playing CBT.

good point. If a faction ultimately won, you would have no game, so the universe is set up so that no faction can ever win a true peace. This is why the second star league failed, why we had the jihad, and the dark age, and of course why in the 41st millennium, there is only war.

[dal10]

31st century*


it is also why the blackout basically returns everyone back to the status quo. just with more factions. the houses have lost all warship capabilities, a lot of normal factories were heavily damaged. basically at this point it is the first succession minus the weapons of mass destruction all over again.

[Jakob Knight]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

No. And I said I never did justify the Jags. But I.S. only helped prolong it. So there was no good deed done by anyone there.

I'm sorry for my mistakes. I have never been allowed the BT novels as I am 16 and my parents don't allow the books around. I have only learned this much from the video games and what I've read on Sarna and not gotten all the information as I do not have all the access. But I still stand by my views that there is no side that is good and that Victor was just as bad as many of his ancestors and the Clanners. You cannot justify killing completely but it is okay to defend, but not to strike unless absolutely necessary. Clans were wrong to invade. The I.S. was wrong to have a war to control each other for 200 some odd years. The I.S. was wrong (IMO at the time) to invade but I do say it would have eventually been necessary but not at the time until they had actually done something after the Truce. There was no correct side in the matter. The Clans were wrong the I.S. was wrong, everyone was wrong in Lore about something and war is always wrong no matter how you wage it. The destruction of the Jags was the Lesser of 2 evils (the other being let the Truce end and then have another full scale war) but it was not right.

The morality of killing and how and when it should be done is a subject that has been debated and analysed for millenia. The difference between a soldier in the military and murderous madman with a gun is that the soldier is (in any military worthy of the name) taught where the line is and cares about it a great deal. Military action isn't about laying waste to everything around and picking up the pieces to see if you left anything to worry about but controlled and limited use of force to what is appropriate. A soldier isn't an unthinking brute who will blow away anyone who looks at them the wrong way, but a professional who kills if that is what must be done (most soldiers are the last people to want to go to war, they know all too much about it).

And that is a critical consideration when you use the words 'murderer' and 'killer' as the same thing. We are all killers (unless you eat only fruit at all times and don't use any form of disinfectant or pest control) because the world is what it is, and we must kill to survive. However, we are not all murderers as that term is reserved for killing that is done immorally, without cause and/or authority to do so. A soldier doing his/her duty to his country by killing an enemy soldier is not a murderer simply because he/she kills. They are only a murderer if the means they chose is beyond that needed for their responsibilities (using a nuclear weapon to eliminate a single enemy in a city of thousands) and/or they kill that enemy soldier when appropriate alternatives exist (i.e. the enemy soldier is disarmed and has surrendered, and the soldier in question has the means to take them prisoner).

Is killing a bad thing? Yes, I don't think you'll find anyone who would say otherwise who isn't insane. Is killing always unjustifiable or wrong? No. Is war always wrong, no matter how you wage it? No. There are times when a nation must go to war, or allow what -is- wrong to exist. Would it have been right for the Allies in World War Two to allow the ruling Party (we can't even use their name in the forums, which should tell you something) in Germany to continue its policies in regards to the extermination camps by declaring that any war would be wrong? Would it have been right if the United States had let the Iraq army stay in Kuwait because it would be wrong to go to war to stop their pillaging? I agree that war is always a horrible, disasterous thing that only leaves destruction in its wake, but that is not always the wrong thing to do....just the very last option that should ever be used.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but no one should ever think killing and murder are the same thing. And, as far as ignorance goes, ignorance is always a bad thing, but only willful ignorance (not seeking knowledge, especially when the ignorance is known) is wrong.

I highly recommend you read some books on military ethics and the ethics of war in general. Even if you disagree with some of what is said, there is much there to consider and any opinions you have afterwards would be better grounded. Also, you may read Sun-Tzu's 'The Art of War' to see how the subject of war remains pretty much the same today as it has been ("The General who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom." - from VNV's 'Art of Conflict', should you wish to give a listen), or even Robert E. Heinlein's book 'Starship Troopers' (the book, not the movie) to get an idea what being a soldier is like (granted in a future army, but with enough grounding in both the practice of soldiering and the reasons behind it to qualify as the only Sci-Fi book on the US Marine Corps list of recommended reading).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 11 November 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vanguard319, on 10 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

good point. If a faction ultimately won, you would have no game, so the universe is set up so that no faction can ever win a true peace. This is why the second star league failed, why we had the jihad, and the dark age, and of course why in the 41st millennium, there is only war.

The Inner Sphere actually won against the Clans an came home to...
...
...
The Word of Blake Jihad. Once that was won the Republic of the Spheres din't have anything to do for 20-40 years???

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 November 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[pbiggz]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

The Inner Sphere actually won against the Clans an came home to...
...
...
The Word of Blake Jihad. Once that was won the Republic of the Spheres din't have anything to do for 20-40 years???

As i remember it, the inner sphere defeated the clans and then came home to the fedcom civil war. About 30 seconds after that war ended, the word of blake started shooting... AT EVERYONE.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 November 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[dal10]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 November 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Idealists like you are able to be the way you are, because of the wars soldiers fight for your freedom. If thousands were not killed in the defense of your nation You may not have had the right to have your opinion. Remember that when you say it is wrong for Us to kill so You can be safe.

you always have the right to an opinion, just like you always have the right to voice it. you just must be prepared to deal with the consequences of said opinion. I have a lot of opinions that run so contrary to public morals that it isn't funny. I voice most of these opinions in a public manner, i literally could be ostracized for life.

For example, there really needs to be a much stronger form of birth control. Limit the number of kids someone can have. Moment you hit that number, sterilize the gal before she leaves the hospital.

No one would ever agree to it, and so many would try to get out of it. but i am more wary of the human population spiraling out of control to the point that we kill off the entire species than being nice there.

or maybe i am just a bad person, who knows.

pbiggz, on 11 November 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

As i remember it, the inner sphere defeated the clans and then came home to the fedcom civil war. About 30 seconds after that war ended, the word of blake started shooting... AT EVERYONE.

actually the star league dissolved, one captain shot at tharkad, the entire organization backed his play.

[pbiggz]

Nevertheless, Victor had the rare honour of coming home as Archon Prince of the Federated Commonwealth, only to find that his complete ***** bag of an older sister had murdered half his family and driven his little sister nearly insane. Also she took all his ****. Now I commend victor for his restraint, because nothing would have stopped me from ripping Katherine's head off if it was me in Victor's shoes.

[Joseph Mallan]

pbiggz, on 11 November 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Nevertheless, Victor had the rare honour of coming home as Archon Prince of the Federated Commonwealth, only to find that his complete ***** bag of an older sister had murdered half his family and driven his little sister nearly insane. Also she took all his ****. Now I commend victor for his restraint, because nothing would have stopped me from ripping Katherine's head off if it was me in Victor's shoes.

You show more restraint than I have! I would have slaughtered every soldier that knowingly supported her!

[dal10]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

You show more restraint than I have! I would have slaughtered every soldier that knowingly supported her!

honestly considering victor's ineptitude at ruling the fed suns prior to the clans, not retaking the throne and instead giving it to another family member was probably the best course of action.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 11 November 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

honestly considering victor's ineptitude at ruling the fed suns prior to the clans, not retaking the throne and instead giving it to another family member was probably the best course of action.

Why do I always feel like I read Vic constantly saying he'd rather defend his realm than lead it???

[dal10]

cause he kinda does.

[dal10]

and people say my contributions are meaningless...

[dal10]

you couldn't support a population that comes anywhere close to a trillion people on this planet. at the rate of growth we are currently maintaining it is entirely possible that we will see mass food riots in the next hundred years.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Nice one, troll.

[dal10]

you do realize that was intended as purely an example not an argument right?

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 11 November 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

cause he kinda does.

Thank You.

[dal10]

no problem.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Vanguard319, on 10 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

In the 41st millennium, there is only war.

dal10, on 10 November 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

31st century*

I think you missed that one dal10

[dal10]

i don't acknowledge warhammer. All because like 7-8 forums i followed ago a person bragged that no tabletop universe could beat the imperator titan. I trumped it with a bolo. dude got pissed, dude was friend with forum runner, i got banned.

http://www.kitsune.a...s/Bolo-MKXX.htm

cause lets put a cannon from a space cruiser on a tank.