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Battle Of Tukayyid Question


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#201 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:36 AM

No I get what you meant about ComStar using the SS as proxies. I am going at it from a different angle.

First off there is no proof that the invasion taxed the Clans' resources. Certainly more resources would be used if ALL the Clans would invade but I am sure given their "waste nothing" mentality, it could be done. Certainly not wanting to trample Terra, the Clans would have to go around the sides to the FWL & the CCas you say & I concede it would be great undertaking but again I cannot see any evidence to suggest it would either be impossible or draining. Remember they already had the Dragoons go through, so consider that a dry run & they had enough old parts to use for that particular mission. Between 3000 & 3050, a lot of progress would have been made. Now consider every piece of infrastructure they grab strengthens them & weakens the SS.

Second, the Nova Cats & Steel Vipers were a ploy used by Ulric Kerensky to hamstring the Smoke Jaguars & Jade Falcons respectively. First off these were not just other Clans joining the fight. The Jaguars & Nova Cats hated each & the same held true for the Jade Falcons & the Steel Vipers; even more so actually. The Jaguars & Falcons now had to contend with these newcomers, assign troops to fight Trials of Possession & ultimately share lands, infrastructure, factories etc. that was previously their own exclusively.

Quote

How big were the Jade Falcon, Steel Viper, and Wolf Clan invasion armies in the summer of 3052.


I think I actually made charts of those. I will have to check.


EDIT: I have the Ghost Bears numbers according to the Invading Clans Sourcebook. I think I might have done other Clans, I will have to check.

Posted Image

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 15 November 2013 - 05:02 AM.


#202 Jakob Knight

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:33 AM

View PostTyrnea Smurf, on 15 November 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:


Yeah they had to come up with something to explain the massive logistal hole in the Clan Invasion as presented. In the 3020'd the Federated Suns not only proved to be good at moving long distances quickly (Hanse is credited with the creation of the Command Circuit of Jumpships) But also masters of large scale movement warfare (He attacked the Capellan Confederation with 40 RCT's (which I showed earlier would be nearly as large a force as Comstar would use at Tukayyid) Now suddenly the Feds are all thumbs and can't move their massive military might.





Well, it should be pointed out that there were several factors involved that impacted the Federated Suns performance in this regard,

First, by this timeperiod the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth had largely combined their forces into the Federated Commonwealth, including military assets. While both sections of the nation did try to keep some units 'pure' nationally-speaking, the main idea was integration. While the Fedsuns forces were very good at efficient military operations and operated on a merit basis, the Lyran side of the military was largely a status/social-driven military that (before the alliance) had been viewed by other militaries of the Inner Sphere as less than skilled at war (the Lyrans relied on having the larger number of larger battlemechs to win the day rather than tactics and skilled use of smaller forces). The former Lyran officers would be an obstacle in the former Fedsuns' officers way of doing things. To make it a bit simpler, the FedSuns' attitude of 'get it done' and the Lyran attitude of 'look good doing it' merged such that the FedCom system attitude became 'get it done, but make sure you look good doing it'.

Second, the majority (almost all) of the FedCom side of the war happened in Lyran space, and the command structure of that section of space was still heavily controlled by Lyran nobles who had their own preferences in how military shipping went through their system. This would have hampered any command circuit and likely large troop movements would be disrupted by Lyran nobles trying to use such a force arriving in their system for political gain (insisting the force hold off until they could personally and publically be present to send it on it's way, forcing the commander of the force to fill out several hundred forms to gain authorization to leave, directly attempting to take command or attach their own forces to gain prestige, ect.).

Third, in the large-scale troop movements that highlighted the FedSun's strategic abilities in the Third Successor War, the FedSuns were on the offensive, and had prepared for the movements in advance. In the Clan War, the FedCom militaries were the ones on defense and trying to catch up to the Clan's attack. In war, the attacker has the advantage of knowing where and when the attack will start and can make all the planning needed to control the timing of various operations, while the defender has to protect over a wide area and/or is left trying to shift forces to trouble spots quickly and without warning.

Lastly, by the time of the Clan War, a significant amount of time had passed since the Third Successor War. The FedSun officers, soldiers, and sailors who had trained and operated in the large-scale war operations were now either retired, dead, or in higher command positions. Those actually doing the jobs would have been trained under the new combined military doctrines of the FedCom academies (see the first point above) and, while familiar with the ideas of large-scale, multiple RCT rapid movement across strategic space, would likely not be as capable as their former comrades who were trained in a pure FedSuns military designed around combined arms. Both for reasons of experience and the kind of command bureaucracy they had to operate in.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 15 November 2013 - 05:37 AM.


#203 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:23 AM

That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess not all of you Spheroids are bad. :P

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 15 November 2013 - 06:23 AM.


#204 Karl Streiger

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:28 AM

I would not over estimate the capabilitys to transfer units. The battle of Tamar should be highlighted. Its the capital of same named march. It was obvious that the Clans will attack this planet: It was important because of its academy and some production facilitys. Same for Sudeten and several other worlds that were conquered in the fourth or fifth wave.

If the FedComs would really have thrown all there might for defense - those battles shouldn't have happened.


The other problem with Clan Warfare: You can not win - when in defense.
Principle is simple:
Clan moves into orbit - take a look what you have and bid for them selves to defeat you.
If you are able to defeat the first wave -> they simple will make another bid or ask to take a former bid and so on - till your trops are overwhelmed.
Even if you are able to - make the impossible possible and defend all the troops of the first bid. I don't think that Clans will say - good bye and move away. They will attack you again and again and again.

It would happen even when you fortify a planet - or at least you need enough troops to defeat one or two galaxys and still have enough troops to do it again: good example Luthien... if not for Tukayyid the Smoke Jags or Nova Cats would have attacked a second time.

The only chance I see: is the offensive. You attack them in full force - overwhelm what is left in the system kill them all and move on. Maybe all those FedCom Regiments that moved to the Jade Falcon border -> were not wasted in defense because they made ready for a full size offense. Based on the principle of the victory of Twycross (I would ignore Falcon Guard and Kai Allard)

The same principle of the later Jihad warfare - you can achieve an ultimate victory over the robes - but we will simple nuke you for that.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 November 2013 - 06:30 AM.


#205 Jakob Knight

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 15 November 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I would not over estimate the capabilitys to transfer units. The battle of Tamar should be highlighted. Its the capital of same named march. It was obvious that the Clans will attack this planet: It was important because of its academy and some production facilitys. Same for Sudeten and several other worlds that were conquered in the fourth or fifth wave.

If the FedComs would really have thrown all there might for defense - those battles shouldn't have happened.


The other problem with Clan Warfare: You can not win - when in defense.
Principle is simple:
Clan moves into orbit - take a look what you have and bid for them selves to defeat you.
If you are able to defeat the first wave -> they simple will make another bid or ask to take a former bid and so on - till your trops are overwhelmed.
Even if you are able to - make the impossible possible and defend all the troops of the first bid. I don't think that Clans will say - good bye and move away. They will attack you again and again and again.

It would happen even when you fortify a planet - or at least you need enough troops to defeat one or two galaxys and still have enough troops to do it again: good example Luthien... if not for Tukayyid the Smoke Jags or Nova Cats would have attacked a second time.

The only chance I see: is the offensive. You attack them in full force - overwhelm what is left in the system kill them all and move on. Maybe all those FedCom Regiments that moved to the Jade Falcon border -> were not wasted in defense because they made ready for a full size offense. Based on the principle of the victory of Twycross (I would ignore Falcon Guard and Kai Allard)

The same principle of the later Jihad warfare - you can achieve an ultimate victory over the robes - but we will simple nuke you for that.


As has been said before.."No Department of Defense ever won a war". Yes, you need offensive operations or you'll be always at the mercy of the attackers as to when the war starts and ends.

However, it is also true that the Clans would not attack a planet once the battle to decide its fate had been conducted. This assumes the battle was stated to be for the planet, and not an installation on the planet (which would then be immune from further contest). To do so would breach the entire point of the Clan Trial system, and bring the offender up on charges of betraying the Clan Way. Several planets were, in fact, kept from the Clans during the Clan War exactly because Inner Sphere forces had won the Trials of Possession for them.

Now, that isn't saying another Clan might not try to take it, or that the same Clan might attack it some time down the road if conditions changed, but the same commander and same Clan could not instigate a new Trial for the same objective it had lost in hopes of reversing the outcome. The outcome of a Trial could only be reversed by a Trial of Refusal by the parties directly involved in the initial Trial, and since the Clan force would have had to have lost to make this a possibility, the attacking Clan force would be all but wiped out before this. Also, a commander could call in additional forces equal to his initial bid, but would lose practically all honor doing so.

The practice of attrition warfare (which is basically what the idea of sending successive Trials one after another is) was completely foreign to the Clan Way, and any commander who tried to do this would quickly face challenge by just about every other commander in his/her Clan. There is no 'Best out of Three' in the Clan Way.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 15 November 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#206 Xelchon

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 14 November 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:


Tukayyid Scenario Pack Pg.7 - Case One



Well; I know the Tukkayyid battle from the Stackpole's and Thurston's writing only. I didn't see an indication from what I read. There's stuff i didn't read tbh, and if it's explained in such a place, I simply concede. ^^

#207 Xelchon

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 15 November 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:



The other problem with Clan Warfare: You can not win - when in defense.
Principle is simple:
Clan moves into orbit - take a look what you have and bid for them selves to defeat you.
If you are able to defeat the first wave -> they simple will make another bid or ask to take a former bid and so on - till your trops are overwhelmed.
Even if you are able to - make the impossible possible and defend all the troops of the first bid. I don't think that Clans will say - good bye and move away. They will attack you again and again and again.

It would happen even when you fortify a planet - or at least you need enough troops to defeat one or two galaxys and still have enough troops to do it again: good example Luthien... if not for Tukayyid the Smoke Jags or Nova Cats would have attacked a second time.



I don't think that's true. The bidding generals should reach an agreement that would prevent further attacks. If the IS generals use their brains in the bidding. Basically; "Bargain well and done."
Further attakcs shouldn't be necessary. That's always been like that. Remember the case in which the combine troops -what was the planet's name?- defended the swamp from Jags and also claimed four pristine omni mechs in the process?

#208 dal10

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:57 PM

i think if more than just one or 2 planets were bargained to never be attacked again the falcons would disallow that practice.

#209 pbiggz

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:02 PM

After the truce the jade falcons begun to actively try to break it. This is part of the reason why Ulric Kerensky chose the falcons as his final target in the refusal war. He very nearly took one of the most violent crusader clans off the playing field for ever, and he most definitely crippled them for long enough that there was little they could do to renew an invasion until long after the Inner Sphere was prepared to counterattack.

#210 dal10

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:31 PM

just imagine what would have happened if the crusaders had been successful at putting conal ward in the khan seat.

#211 pbiggz

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:01 PM



#212 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostXelchon, on 15 November 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:


I don't think that's true. The bidding generals should reach an agreement that would prevent further attacks. If the IS generals use their brains in the bidding. Basically; "Bargain well and done."
Further attakcs shouldn't be necessary. That's always been like that. Remember the case in which the combine troops -what was the planet's name?- defended the swamp from Jags and also claimed four pristine omni mechs in the process?


Wolcott. They also claimed two dozen Elemental suits. The Clans were wary of batchalls after that because they realized the trickery the Dracs had pulled off.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 15 November 2013 - 05:02 PM.


#213 dal10

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

it is kinda depressing that this thread has died...

#214 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

We are 12 pages in. What are you talking about?

#215 dal10

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:43 PM

well considering that it was halfway down the page when i commented on it, it seemed like it was well on its way to disappearing. maybe i am just used to posting too much...

#216 Karl Streiger

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 11:25 PM

View PostXelchon, on 15 November 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I don't think that's true. The bidding generals should reach an agreement that would prevent further attacks. If the IS generals use their brains in the bidding. Basically; "Bargain well and done."
Further attakcs shouldn't be necessary. That's always been like that. Remember the case in which the combine troops -what was the planet's name?- defended the swamp from Jags and also claimed four pristine omni mechs in the process?

Exactly what happened on Tukayyid or Wollcot. But most likely there wouldn't be any Batchtall.
You simple send an transmission that you attack this planet - and if the other side IS say - Ok we defend our world with...
you simple can say - "No - you are bandits not bound to honour!" It worries me a little bit that Clans are painted as stupid brutes only with a few handsome leaders. If so the Clans would never even be able to produce "better" technology.

I think Clans are really smart guys. And as such - with Victory over anything else - it doesn't sound logical that they would not attack a planet for a second time using all means necessary - what itsn't even necessary - afaik you can "with some degeneration of honor - try to take a former bid - back to the first on" That means if things doesn't look so well - you can try to get some more tropps, or your comanding officer simple realize that you wont have a chance to win the battle and will give the other commander that has lost the bidding the order to attack.
Heck if things go bad you still have an Warship in Orbit -

#217 Jakob Knight

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:21 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 17 November 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Exactly what happened on Tukayyid or Wollcot. But most likely there wouldn't be any Batchtall.
You simple send an transmission that you attack this planet - and if the other side IS say - Ok we defend our world with...
you simple can say - "No - you are bandits not bound to honour!" It worries me a little bit that Clans are painted as stupid brutes only with a few handsome leaders. If so the Clans would never even be able to produce "better" technology.

I think Clans are really smart guys. And as such - with Victory over anything else - it doesn't sound logical that they would not attack a planet for a second time using all means necessary - what itsn't even necessary - afaik you can "with some degeneration of honor - try to take a former bid - back to the first on" That means if things doesn't look so well - you can try to get some more tropps, or your comanding officer simple realize that you wont have a chance to win the battle and will give the other commander that has lost the bidding the order to attack.
Heck if things go bad you still have an Warship in Orbit -


The problem is that you have an incorrect concept of the Clans. They are, indeed 'smart', but they are also respectful of their traditions. Among these is that a battle won without honor is no victory, and wasteful use of resources is among the greatest crimes. These two tenants are the core of the Clan Way.

This is why a Clan commander, who may realize he/she can grind down an Inner Sphere force with successive attacks, will not do so. Attrition warfare is wasteful of material and manpower, and thus to be shunned. At the same time, such tactics call into question the honor of both the commander and his/her Clan by casting aside the results of a Trial simply because it produced an unfavorable results. Now, there were Clans that sometimes went down this path, but they were universally reviled by the other Clans and generally made the target of punitive actions.

This is also why the Clans do -not- view Victory at any cost or over anything else as right in the Clan Way. They are very mindful of how they conduct battles, and any Clan commander who did as you suggest would likely challenged by their own warriors if their own superiors didn't do it first. Honor and conservation of resources is paramount to a Clan force, and any orders to the contrary would be met with severe resistance. Any leader who tried to violate the Clan Way would essencially be committing treason in the eyes of their warriors.

Lastly, a Clan commander cannot simply declare an IS force Bandit Caste unless the actions of the IS force have proven this. Simply declaring you will defend a planet with all you have at your disposal is -not- a violation of the bidding process, but a statement of forces the Clan commander may use when determining their own bid. Again, if a Clan commander declared the IS force Bandit Caste in a clear means to avoid behaving as a Clansman, their own warriors would challenge their command and likely declare -them- to be Bandit Caste for jettisoning the Clan Way for profit.

Bottom line: Any assumption that the Clans believe in 'Victory is the highest honor, and to be won by any means' is completely wrong and against all the Clans stand for. It wouldn't be put into practice (though some unscrupulous Clan commanders might try to do so through deception and guile, they would never do so openly and would likely be found out quickly).

#218 Karl Streiger

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 06:20 AM

thx for clarification
so a batchtall = 1 attack if attack fails the enemy got a world in your back - similar to Wolcott?
But wasn't the point - no attack in the future part of the batchtall - and if it was part of the SJ -> DC deal so Novacats or Ghostbear should have been able to attack - or was the ritual of that Batchtall now matter how the DC fouled with that holy enough that no other clan was allowed to attack that planet again?

Hm ..for Luthien there was an order - no Batchtall - so that world was still a valid target after the truce of Tukayyid?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 November 2013 - 06:23 AM.


#219 Jakob Knight

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:52 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 18 November 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

thx for clarification
so a batchtall = 1 attack if attack fails the enemy got a world in your back - similar to Wolcott?
But wasn't the point - no attack in the future part of the batchtall - and if it was part of the SJ -> DC deal so Novacats or Ghostbear should have been able to attack - or was the ritual of that Batchtall now matter how the DC fouled with that holy enough that no other clan was allowed to attack that planet again?

Hm ..for Luthien there was an order - no Batchtall - so that world was still a valid target after the truce of Tukayyid?


Pretty much. In the case of SJ/DC Trial, the Ghost Bears would have been able to launch an attack of their own, however they would have had to enter SJ's invasion corridor to do so. This would be similar to the Federated Suns dropping an RCT through Draconis Combine space on the way to raid a Periphery World, and be met similarly. It -could- happen, but likely the GB force would have faced Trial after Trial just getting to the world that it would be ground to almost nothing by the time it arrived.

As to Luthien, as long as it was above the Truce line, it could be attacked. Note this is why the IS launched the counterattack and eventual Refusal...they knew it was only a temporary reprieve, and to those worlds above the Truce line, there would be little difference unless the Clans were stopped permanently.

About the only other thing is that only the ilKhan and the Grand Council could make agreements that would bind all the Clans, so any Trial he/she agreed to was binding on all Clans, regardless of who actually did the combat. This also imposed a directive on the ilKhan that he/she had to act to the benefit of all the Clans and not just their own, the charge that eventually left the Smoke Jaguars alone against the Inner Sphere. Any Trial conducted by a Clan binded that Clan until significant events changed the conditions of the outcome (a different nation took control of a planet formerly contested, or the planet itself nullified the Trial somehow).

Lastly, the terms of the Trial were binding, but had to be clearly stated. The Smoke Jaguars would not seek to take possession of a world they had lost a Trial for, but they certainly would be able to launch raids for something specific on the planet (control of a library of data, the raw materials of a mine, ect.) unless the terms of the original Trial prohibited it. Similarly, if the Trial was worded poorly, it might allow the Smoke Jaguars a chance to attack at a later time because the Inner Sphere commander didn't think beyond their own immediate battle (such as the Inner Sphere commander making the terms such that if the Clan force loses "you will never return" instead of "Clan X will never seek to control this world again", which would end up only binding to that particular fighting unit instead of the Clan itself).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 18 November 2013 - 09:01 AM.


#220 RagingOyster

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostLoPanShui, on 05 November 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

If I remember correctly ComGuard forces also outnumbered clan forces quite heavily, and in return their losses were significantly higher. Think of Tukayyid more like Stalingrad. The ComGuard put the Clans up against super numbers and firepower, but against less experienced and less skilled troops. They won by bogging the Clans down, ending their Blitzkrieg tactics.

While the Clans like to have quick, brutal fighting that emphasizes personal achievement over coordinated tactics, the ComGuards refused to meet them head on, cut off their supply lines, and when forced into battle relied on subterfuge, superior numbers, heavy use of ambushes and mining in order to keep the Clanners from doing what they did best, which was kill 'Mechs head on.

Clanners are fantastic at fighting and terrible at war.

IIRC numbers were quite even, as were the losses. The ComGuards didn't overwhelm the Clans with numbers or attrition, they just out-thought them and beat them in the type of war that the Clans are not used to fighting. Like you said, Clanners excel in straight-up one-to-one slugfests, so the ComGuards denied them the fight they wanted and gave them a battle of maneuver using the terrain, combined-arms and actual military tactics to take them apart and destroy them.

What happened on Tukayyid was a battle between soldiers and warriors; an army using unified, theater-wide strategy and tactics versus seven separate armies that refused to communicate or cooperate and landed at different times (Wolf landed 5 days later than SJ) to attack different targets.

View PostHelbrecht, on 05 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

the Com Guards were Officially formed 30 years prior to Tukkayid( but rumor has it they were building and storing mechs in small numbers for at least 2 centuries) . the mechs, tanks, aero fighters are all star league tech either manufactured on terra or recovered through hidden staches of recovered by comstar. similiar to the cache on helm discovered by gray death legion. the comguards were hidden and not hidden so to speak all the houses new of the com guards but the actual size and tech of the comguards was closly guarded secret.

No, the Com Guards were formed right after the Star League fell because Blake knew he would need some kind of armed force to protect the HPGs, SLDF tech and of course Terra itself.

View PostHillslam, on 06 November 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Some of this makes sense but some still doesn't.

I mean we know com guards were stationed at HPGs and tangled with pirates et al. And we know they recruited from IS pilots who fell out of favor.


I also want to dispel the idea that people seem to have here that the Com Guards took huge losses and only just barely beat the Clans. At Tukayyid, the Com Guards soundly defeated every Clan save the Wolves, Bears and Falcons and even among those three only the Wolves won. While the Com Guards took ~40% casualties, the Clans total losses were just as high if not higher. The Diamond Sharks forces were almost wiped out entirely, as were the Smoke Jaguars and in every other battle except the Jade Falcons', the losses were quite even.

But the Star League tech piece I just can't cotton up to yet.

Obviously the com guards stationed at the HPGs weren't strutting around in Star League mechs or the houses would have been all over that.

So here comes the battle of Tukkayyid. Precentor Focht says to his pilots... what?

-"OK guys, park your current mechs over there in the storage yard. Now come here"
*gathers them around a set of massive doors to an underground chamber*
-"For this upcoming battle you'll all be piloting.... THESE!"
*doors open, trumpets sound, angels sing, the bling glints off the rows of pristine Star League mechs.*
-"OK. You have 2 days to get familiar with your new machines. GOOD LUCK!"
*walks off to the planning center*

From my days as a pilot I know if I was about to get thrown into a battle, and the Navy said "here we're taking away your old A6 and giving you a brand new FA-18 Hornet" I'd have been grateful for the sweet new jet but no way would I transition over to a whole new machine on the eve of a major battle.

Something still doesn't add up for me.

ComStar had numerous hidden caches and indeed entire planets that did not appear on any record. These were used as manufacturing centers, storage areas and research labs and I would imagine most of the Com Guards' SLDF military gear would have been kept at one of these secret sites or on Terra.





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