124 replies to this topic

[RolfS]

I am pretty tired of all anti boaters hence i felt it was time to start a poll to get the boats back.
Stalkers with 4xPPC or 6xLLs aren't that effective if you look at the kill count neither is the ATLAS-RS with 4xPPC. If you run an ATLAS-RS 4xPPC you can get easily humiliated by a single commando that blast you from close range.

The lack of boating makes the battle field duller, not better. Having crazy mech builds in the game makes the game more casual more fun and simply better.

The only crazy mech build I can think of right now is using a Jager with 2xGauss and 2xPPC howver that build ain't fun with the current nerfed Gauss, which i Guess means there aren't any crazy mech build being used right at the moment.

[Multitallented]

No.

The heat increases (ghost heat included) effectively put an end to the boating problems. You can still use crazy mechs like an AC20/3 PPC Misery or Atlas, but largely the alpha has been curbed to make way for more creative solutions that rely more on skill.

Edited by Multitallented, 05 November 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Screw ghost heat, we don't need it and it hasn't solved anything. Pinpoint accurate alpha strikes are the real problem.

[Tyman4]

Totally agree. The base heat on the PPC's is high enough without ghost heat, and if it becomes a problem just increase the base heat. Y use a convoluted system like ghost heat?

[Adiuvo]

4x PPC/6x LL Stalker weren't effective?

This doesn't even deserve a response.

[Roland]

RolfS, on 05 November 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

I am pretty tired of all anti boaters hence i felt it was time to start a poll to get the boats back.
Stalkers with 4xPPC or 6xLLs aren't that effective

Er... the 4 PPC stalker actually was pretty ridiculously effective. I ran it constantly for a long time... generally against very good players.

RolfS, on 05 November 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

if you look at the kill count neither is the ATLAS-RS with 4xPPC. If you run an ATLAS-RS 4xPPC you can get easily humiliated by a single commando that blast you from close range.

Not really.
Back then, you'd generally just run 2 PPC's and 2 ERPPC's... so unless you were terrible, you could easily kill any light mech that came near you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Multitallented, on 05 November 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

No.

The heat increases (ghost heat included) effectively put an end to the boating problems. You can still use crazy mechs like an AC20/3 PPC Misery or Atlas, but largely the alpha has been curbed to make way for more creative solutions that rely more on skill.

It also penalized stock builds like the Awesome, Hunchback (lasertback). and hurts 25+ years of playing Mechs like King Crabs!

[Aluminumfoiled]

Duller now? The ERPPC Stalker was the ultimate camping RV. Little tents RV parks all over upper River city and hills of Frozen.

Edited by MicroVent, 06 November 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[Homeless Bill]

**** that. I really don't like Ghost Heat, but I wouldn't rip it out without replacing it. Not that direct fire weapons aren't still undeniable king, especially when boated.

Hell, try running a 4xPPC Stalker. You'll still demolish people in it as long as you don't get caught alone.

[Steel Claws]

***** n stuff, on 05 November 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Screw ghost heat, we don't need it and it hasn't solved anything. Pinpoint accurate alpha strikes are the real problem.

Sigh.... The only weapons system that really has pin point convergence in reality is lasers. Other than that, factors like lead, travel speed and mech movement pretty much make your pinpoint damage a myth. Sure you might get good convergence o n a mech thats standing still or moving directly toward or away from you but how oftem do you see that? Not very often against the people I face off against.

If convergence were to go away light mechs would much harder to kill than they are right now with PPCs and ballistic weapons - do you really want to go there? All you people who keep asking for this have NOT thought this through very well. Further the dull roar you hear about hit registration would become a full blown Jet engine loud scream if shots did not converge at all.

Edited by Steel Claws, 05 November 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Can we agree that AC2s should go up to 4, or removed from ghost heat? I miss the dakka.

[Orodain]

Steel Claws, on 05 November 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Sigh.... The only weapons system that really has pin point convergence in reality is lasers. Other than that, factors like lead, travel speed and mech movement pretty much make your pinpoint damage a myth. Sure you might get good convergence o n a mech thats standing still or moving directly toward or away from you but how oftem do you see that? Not very often against the people I face off against.

If convergence were to go away light mechs would much harder to kill than they are right now with PPCs and ballistic weapons - do you really want to go there? All you people who keep asking for this have NOT thought this through very well. Further the dull roar you hear about hit registration would become a full blown Jet engine loud scream if shots did not converge at all.

Calls convergence a myth, proceeds to state it would be difficult to kill lights without it.

People who complain about lights are firing l;asers at them for half the beam duration. Lights are a waste of a drop slot unless theyre in a group.

[OneEyed Jack]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Er... the 4 PPC stalker actually was pretty ridiculously effective. I ran it constantly for a long time... generally against very good players.



Not really.
Back then, you'd generally just run 2 PPC's and 2 ERPPC's... so unless you were terrible, you could easily kill any light mech that came near you.

If you read a little closer, he didn't say they never were effective. He aid they are not that effective. And he's right. With minumum ranges hard-capped, full-on PPCs can easily be a death sentence, and they don't have the extreme range that made ERPPCs so good. ERPPCs have the extreme range, and no minimum, but the heat is such that more than 2 wouldn't be reasonable even without ghost heat, and they make horribad close-defense weapons.

Sure, if you nail that Commando with 2xERPPC on the first shot, you might take it out, but how long until you can safely take the second shot if you miss the first? Third?

[Roland]

OneEyed Jack, on 05 November 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

If you read a little closer, he didn't say they never were effective. He aid they are not that effective. And he's right. With minumum ranges hard-capped, full-on PPCs can easily be a death sentence, and they don't have the extreme range that made ERPPCs so good. ERPPCs have the extreme range, and no minimum, but the heat is such that more than 2 wouldn't be reasonable even without ghost heat, and they make horribad close-defense weapons.

Sure, if you nail that Commando with 2xERPPC on the first shot, you might take it out, but how long until you can safely take the second shot if you miss the first? Third?

Saying that builds which are capped by ghost heat aren't overpowered, and thus we should remove ghost heat, is a pretty nonsensical argument.

I don't think Ghost heat is a good solution to the issues it was meant to solve, but the arguments presented here against it aren't very good.

[OneEyed Jack]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Saying that builds which are capped by ghost heat aren't overpowered, and thus we should remove ghost heat, is a pretty nonsensical argument.

I don't think Ghost heat is a good solution to the issues it was meant to solve, but the arguments presented here against it aren't very good.

I wasn't arguing the point. Merely pointing out that your understanding of his point, and thus your counter, were flawed.

However, I think it's pretty fair to say that ghost heat is no longer needed for what's generally accepted as the only weapons it was really aimed at. As it causes problems with other weapons firing in ways they were supposedly intended to fire, removing it would make sense, in my opinion.

[Karl Streiger]

OK plain and simple - you can have boats when the reason why they are that kind of effective is gone.
That fact is the simple doubled armor value as well as the point and click hit distribution - i really hope to see the new hitboxes and how they work.
Next the Closed Beta time to convergence has to make it back into the game.

However discussions like those with all arguments against and for boating simple shows one fact - a hell lot of players don't know about the missing link between table top values of CBT and the real time point n click fps of MWO. I really wish the devs would make a single attemp to make a declaration why they ignored the average to hit probability of hitboxes.


* I'm tired of that old debattes i go into my spreadsheet lab and try to figure out how armor distribution have to be solved

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 November 2013 - 11:29 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

If you want to make a Battlemech game that uses stock battlemech configurations, you wil lneed a place for boats.

Jenners, Hunchbacks, Awesomes, Catapults, Longbwows... So many mechs have boat stock configurations.

If boating has an undue advantage you can't get with mixed weapon builds, then try to identify those and fix them. If convergence is a problem, try either limiting convergence or disallow group-firing such weapons. Or make it work even on mixed weapon builds ,it's not like the computer couldn't calculate the lead for a mixed weapon build, if he can also calculate convergence.

[Khobai]

Players are wrong to get mad at boats. Boating is not and never was the problem. Battletech has plenty of mechs that boat weapons and none of them are overpowered with the exception of maybe Gausszilla (5 Gauss Rifles was pretty broken). Boats in battletech were always balanced out by having random hit locations. Real problem is convergence. Convergence makes it so that instead of having 4 large lasers, you now have 1 deathstar superlaser.

[Troutmonkey]

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

with the exception of maybe Gausszilla (5 Gauss Rifles was pretty broken).

I lost my **** at this, Gausszilla!? Please tell me you're joking, because that name is hilarious

[MustrumRidcully]

Troutmonkey, on 06 November 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

I lost my **** at this, Gausszilla!? Please tell me you're joking, because that name is hilarious

It's more a joke build that is not necessarily canon: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gausszilla
It's somewhat canonized as a possible Annihilator custom build: http://www.sarna.net...Custom_Variants
(Mind you, the Annihilator is also an excellent canonical boat example - even though technically it's not a boat because it uses a mixed armnament - 4 LBX-10 + 4 MPL, or without Level 2/Clan Tech 4 AC/10 + 4 ML.)