64 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

The umbrella effect of ecm is what should be removed.

And Lrm's are junk unless spammed to the 10th power.


All in all the game seems to be balanced by a group of pre-k kids.

[Foxfire]

Mr Andersson, on 06 November 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

To negate ECM with TAG you have to point it at an enemy mech, thereby exposing yourself to enemy fire. And you can only "reveal" one enemy mech at a time, the rest remain hidden under the ECM umbrella.

To counter ECM with BAP you have to get freakishly close to the enemy mech carrying it, which is usually found in the middle of the bunch with its buddys all around. And if the enemy team has got two ECMs, then you have to get close with two BAPs. Good luck.

To point out a flaw with this argument.. You have to expose yourself to spot the enemy without ECM anyways.

I would personally prefer that ECM provided an 'anti artimis' effect for those who are firing missiles from outside of the bubble and those inside the bubble should be screwed for any sort of spotting or missile lock. ECM provides stealth armor like effects as is..

However, the reverse side of that arguement is that every mech currently gets a free C3 system and that LRM's provide mechanics that don't exist in the game yet for the IS(target tracking, which is a technology that isn't in IS tech until 3053-54)...

[Nightcrept]

Or how about having two different sets of ecm . One to create the umbrella and the other to hide the individual mech.

Or my favorite option to the ecm issue is that artemis or bap negates the ecm invisibilty umbrella for all but the mech carrying the ecm.

[AntiSqueaker]

Maybe have a different mode thrown in there, and split up the current Disrupt?

EX:
Mode 1: Prevent enemies from passive acquisition of targets (currently over 200m) over you and all allies within a 180m bubble. Still provides the 2x slower Missile Lock Speed debuff against enemies.
Mode 2: Prevent enemies from locking on to you and friendlies within a bubble. Prevents sharing of targeting data and locks of friendlies inside the bubble. Mechs can be passively acquired, but target info can't be shared to others.
Mode 3: Counter. Same as before.

This splits the functionality of ECM, forcing people to choose between a "stealth bubble" for closing the gap and a "anti-lock" bubble for CQC.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Mycrus, on 06 November 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Please do beat the dead and burried horse...

ECM has been nurfed to the ground and is only situationally useful at best...

L2
BAP
PPC
TAG
UAV
RANGE

I do TAG, it's still a lacking counter, my missles locks are still stupidly sluggish when using TAG which means anybody inside the bubble suddenly is way harder to score a good salvo on. Also relying on a scout for a UAV is a poor strategy, cause 1. it's not often you have a scout that even brings it. 2. They have to go to the center of the group and position it well. 3. nothing is stopping an aware enemy on the team from shooting it down, 4. nothing is stopping them from running away from the UAV range. 5. After all that, it only lasts a minute, and if they have more than one ecm (assuming the other ecm was destroyed by my salvo which isn't all that likely if they are at all aware), its right back to tagging to slowly break the ecm again. Don't take it as me not being grateful fro UAVS, cause when I'm lrming and somebody throws on up, of course I enjoy the free shots, but UAV's can't be considered an sort of end all counter to ecm. It's more like a nice little bonus I get now and then.

So yeah lrms probably have it the worst off of any weapon system in the game, flamers and narc excluded. Does any other weapon in the game have two counters dedicated to it?

Edited by PalmaRoma, 07 November 2013 - 03:49 AM.

[Mycrus]

@Palma - it is a team game.

There are 11 other mechs on your side.

LURMs are very good when used correctly.

ECM as it is now is balanced.
You should have seen the first implementation of it...

[ColourfulConfetti]

Mycrus, on 07 November 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

@Palma - it is a team game.

There are 11 other mechs on your side.

LURMs are very good when used correctly.

ECM as it is now is balanced.
You should have seen the first implementation of it...

Yes I know, I use lrms to great effect pretty often while soloing of all things and yes I also get that its a team game. I am fully aware lrms do better with spotters and coordination, it doesn't change the fact that the lrm's counter to ecm is so bad compared to anybody who uses streaks. For 1 ton sacrificed I get a TAG, a lackluster counter to ecm. ECM for 1.5 tons denies any use of the lock button, nullifies lrms, even when tag is brought the missile locks are painfully slow, denies any use of streaks without the use of an equally heavy B.A.P, not to mention indirect bombardment is no longer applicable to anybody inside the ecm. Oh and my range is limited to 750 m, not a huge complaint since lrms are not usually effective over 700 but it is particularly frustrating to see somebody 850 m out in the open and not being able to hit him. Yeah there is something wrong there. I feel like my tag should be doing something more considering that is my only method of damage, which btw is the only real way to justify lrms in the first place.

Oh and I thought I should mention, streak users are fully unimpaired by ecm with it's counter and run great by themselves, pretty much any weapon in the game can run decently by themselves so why are lrms an exception when ecm is involved? Seems a little nutty doesn't it?

Edited by PalmaRoma, 07 November 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[stjobe]

Dirkdaring, on 06 November 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Want to know the real kicker with ECM?

In Battletech it didn't make mechs not able to be locked on for LRMs. It only affected fire controls like Artmis and Narc Beacons.

Normal LRMs? Unaffected by ECM.

Indeed.

Quote

Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.

- http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Also, in TT enemy ECM only affects you if you're inside the ECM range, not if you're outside it. Quite the opposite of how it works in MWO.

[mike29tw]

Mycrus, on 07 November 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

@Palma - it is a team game.

There are 11 other mechs on your side.

LURMs are very good when used correctly.

ECM as it is now is balanced.
You should have seen the first implementation of it...

Balanced as "it doesn't break the game horribly".

It's still the 1.5 ton magic box that everyone will choose to mount if they have the choice.

[Mycrus]

mike29tw, on 07 November 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Balanced as "it doesn't break the game horribly".

It's still the 1.5 ton magic box that everyone will choose to mount if they have the choice.

other "balance" changes
COM-2D/SDR-5D -- can't mount the fastest engine
RVN-3L -- borked hitboxes
CDA-3M -- ermm, it's a cicada...
AS7-DDC -- ermm, it's an atlas...

Edited by Mycrus, 07 November 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Mycrus, on 07 November 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

other "balance" changes
COM-2D/SDR-5D -- can't mount the fastest engine
RVN-3L -- borked hitboxes
CDA-3M -- ermm, it's a cicada...
AS7-DDC -- ermm, it's an atlas...

Raven 3l even with its bad hitboxes is still one of the best lights in game, dual large lasers works wonders on it, the Com-2d is one of the greatest anti light mechs in game with how many missle hard points it has, and Atlas DC is one of the best Assualts in the game, the fact that its slow means nothing, ecm still does its job just as well on an a assault class mech. Perhaps even better with how hard an Atlas is to kill (assuming the pilot has any sense of awareness and stragetic and tactical sense.)

[Mycrus]

PalmaRoma, on 07 November 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Raven 3l even with its bad hitboxes is still one of the best lights in game, dual large lasers works wonders on it, the Com-2d is one of the greatest anti light mechs in game with how many missle hard points it has, and Atlas DC is one of the best Assualts in the game, the fact that its slow means nothing, ecm still does its job just as well on an a assault class mech. Perhaps even better with how hard an Atlas is to kill (assuming the pilot has any sense of awareness and stragetic and tactical sense.)

[ColourfulConfetti]

Mycrus, on 07 November 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Seems you summed up your previous post for me, I suppsoe I owe you thanks for that.
I have personal experience wit the Raven 3L and Atlas DDC so its not "just" opinion with no thought behind it, I have experience to back it up which helps equates to quite a bit of thought behind what I say.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 07 November 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Mycrus]

PalmaRoma, on 07 November 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Seems you summed up your previous post for me, I suppsoe I owe you thanks for that.
I have personal experience wit the Raven 3L and Atlas DDC so its not "just" opinion with no thought behind it, I have experience to back it up which helps equates to quite a bit of thought behind what I say.

i have mastered all the lights / all variants.. except locust which i'm still working on.

i have mastered all the atlai / including the boar's head where i still run a clown xl400 build.

so yeah, i haz my opinions too.

[Almond Brown]

If ECM didn't block Missile locks, what would the point of it be? Nothing. It doesn't block any other damage type. ECM was apparently the unwanted ******* spawn of more EW gear. That is about it really. With a range of 180m, using it with LRM's inside the bubble just doesn't happen, min range is 180m. Ok you should be able to use it outside the bubble, but at 181m returned direct fire likely makes that a bad range choice.

So we back up and back up until we are again at 900m. Again, without the lock block, what is the ******* point of ECM again? BTW adding a delayed block time of even 3 seconds would be pointless. It is tough enough to keep locks on non-ECM mechs as it is. Imagine adding a full 3 seconds to lock gain?

An "Electronic Counter Measure" that doesn't "Counter the Electronics" of the enemy fighting against it. LOL!

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 November 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Almond Brown, on 07 November 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

If ECM didn't block Missile locks, what would the point of it be? Nothing. It doesn't block any other damage type. ECM was apparently the unwanted ******* spawn of more EW gear. That is about it really. With a range of 180m, using it with LRM's inside the bubble just doesn't happen, min range is 180m. Ok you should be able to use it outside the bubble, but at 181m returned direct fire likely makes that a bad range choice.

So we back up and back up until we are again at 900m. Again, without the lock block, what is the ******* point of ECM again? BTW adding a delayed block time of even 3 seconds would be pointless. It is tough enough to keep locks on non-ECM mechs as it is. Imagine adding a full 3 seconds to lock gain?

An "Electronic Counter Measure" that doesn't "Counter the Electronics" of the enemy fighting against it. LOL!

The point is that it makes you invisible to sensor range and stops any use of sensor locking, I'm mostly fine with blocked missle locks, but if I want to counter it, I should be able to do it decently. If I bring tag at least give my missiles normal lock time, I wasted a ton for it, you only have to use half a ton more for the ability to counter my lrms, streaks, and completely nullify the use of sensor locks. Pretty powerful for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment huh?

[Lykaon]

Mycrus, on 07 November 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

@Palma - it is a team game.

There are 11 other mechs on your side.

LURMs are very good when used correctly.

ECM as it is now is balanced.
You should have seen the first implementation of it...

And the grand total of alterations of ECM since it's first public launch is....

Reduced hitpoints to 3
Requires a dedicated hardpoint
No longer jams friendly mech icons from appearing on the mini map.

By that record only ONE ability of ECM has be removed and granted it was one of the most over powered features it had.

ALL other ECM features are intact.ECM is still the most potent 1.5 tons you could put on a mech hands down.

[Lykaon]

PalmaRoma, on 07 November 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The point is that it makes you invisible to sensor range and stops any use of sensor locking, I'm mostly fine with blocked missle locks, but if I want to counter it, I should be able to do it decently. If I bring tag at least give my missiles normal lock time, I wasted a ton for it, you only have to use half a ton more for the ability to counter my lrms, streaks, and completely nullify the use of sensor locks. Pretty powerful for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment huh?

You forgot the loss of the energy hardpoint for TAG you also give up potential use of a weapon to mount a TAG.

Every one of the ECM "counters" have a downside.

TAG requires aiming,LOS,Uses a weapon hardpoint.

PPC requires aiming,LOS,is a weapon with heat use and cool downs,only lasts 4 seconds as a disrupt to ECM requiring every ECM mech to be hit every 4 seconds.

BAP uses the same tonnage as ECM and was given a monkey version of an ability ECM has.ECM counters ECM at 180m BAP has 150m.ECM gives us total domination of information warfare and is a better anti missile system than AMS and still counters enemy ECM better than a BAP.

UAVs? 40k a pop module slot nuff said.

There was an opertunity to have an intelligent interrelated E-war system in MWo.But instead we got SUPER ECM and a pile of stuff that sorta mitigates the super powers of ECM.

The whole system revolves around ECM.ECM is the dictating factor for the entirety of E-War and information warfare.

[Lykaon]

A more intelligent inter related system of E-war and information warfare would have had support electronics providing important functions in regards to information warfare.

Here are some of my ideas.

Command consoles:

Allow company commanders to place visable waypoints for each lance on the tactical map and HUD.These waypoints can marked as move to/attack/defend.

The Command console will allow for particular enemies to be flagged as priority targets by altering their targeting data on the HUD of all company mechs.

Command console equiped mechs have access to the tactical map that displays all known data on the enemy.Location of mechs,type and loadout,damage levels etc.

Command consoles are disrupted by hostile ECM within 180m.

BAP:

BAP inceases sensor range by 25%

BAP reduces data accusition time by 25%

BAP detects shut down mechs within 120m

BAP detects all enemy units within 120m within sensor arc (front arc) regardless of line of sight.Detected enemy mechs can be targeted by units friendly to the BAP unit as if they were within normal line of sight.This would alow friendly units to the BAP to use LRM indirect fire or track and monitor enemy movements (very helpful when used with a command console in the company)

BAP is disrupted by hostile ECM that is within 180m.

NARC:

When attached to an enemy mech the NARC will trasmit this enemy's location to all units friendly to the NARC up to a 1km range.This would allow any mechs friendly to the NARC beacon to fire indirectly with LRMs without the need for a spotter.

NARC beacons can be destroyed.If the body location a NARC is attached to sustains (x) damage value from non missile weapons it is destroyed.Also if the body location with an attached NARC takes (Y value higher than X) damage it is also destroyed.

If a attached NARC beacon is within 180m of hostile ECM it will be suppressed and will not function until it has been removed from the ECM effects.

NARC beacons remain in effect until they are destroyed or enter the effective radious of hostile ECM.

TAG:
Retains all current functions

ECM:

Projects a 180m radious jamming field.Any friendly mech within this area is covered and gains the benefits of the ECM jamming.

ECM jamms the following.

Artemis will not function if the artemis equped mech or the target mech is under ECM effect.
NARC will not transmit while under ECM effect
Command consoles will cease functioning while under ECM effect.
TAG will not transmit data to other friendlies if the TAG is within ECM effect.

All missile lock attempts originating from a unit effected by ECM or attemting to lock onto a unit effected by ECM will have the lock on time doubled.

All atempts to gain critical data info from mechs under ECM effect are doubled.

In addition ECM equiped mechs and only the ECM equiped mech reduces the range enemy sensors can detect it by 75%

ECM can be toggled to counter ECM mode.When in this mode all other features of ECM are lost and instead the ECM will counter the effects of the closest hostile ECM within 180m radious.

Edited by Lykaon, 07 November 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Nightcrept]

They could always give ecm it's own tree.


Equipment: Weight: Slots: Heat: Ability:

ECM Mk1--------------------2 tons-----------------2-------------1.5--------Covers the mech with a passive ecm bubble rendering it invisible to enemy sensors.

ECM Mk2--------------------2 tons------------------2--------------2-------Creates an active 180m ecm bubble around the mech that renders all units inside invisible to enemy sensors. (Except the mech carrying the ecm module.)

ECM Mk3--------------------1.5 tons---------------2--------------3-------Creates a 180m ECCM field that counters the effects of enemy ecm.


Ecm's Mk 4-5-6 would be combinations of two of the effects from 1-2-3 and selectible.

Ecm mk 7 would have all three choices. Each one selectible.